Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

[Muteki]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Scouting awareness typically gives you a good idea of who has fast/star development anyway. Not sure why all the fuss about the guides. I'll take a 90+ speed tight end with solid catching and blocking skills who has average development and 30 awareness any day over a star development, 7x speed tight end. Like someone else said, the guides are not a drafting blueprint. They are a starting point. In leagues where you actually play each other, there are more important attributes than just development. In sim leagues, you probably want to focus on awareness anyway since it has a high effect on overall and that attribute usually gives you a good idea of a player's development.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

LOL, I don't get the sentiment about people "complaining" or there being an "argument" about any of this, it is just a discussion. It's not like the OP created this thread to advocate for banning people from leagues or OS for draft guides, he just was raising the discussion of should said guides be allowed on OS.

As far as an exploit, if the draft guides are able to reveal a player's "development" rating, bypassing the need to unlock that rating in-game, as intended, that is exploiting the game. Everyone is entitled to play the game however they want but that's besides the point of allowing members of OS to collude together to create a guide that bypasses the need to scout "development" ratings.

That said, if OS decides to prevent posting draft guides like they do with other exploit posting, cool, if not, cool too. Nobody that I am aware of is going to lose sleep over it either way, so these references to this being anymore than a civil discussion with various opinions, are unfounded.

[Dempseylicious23]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

LOL, I don't get the sentiment about people "complaining" or there being an "argument" about any of this, it is just a discussion. It's not like the OP created this thread to advocate for banning people from leagues or OS for draft guides, he just was raising the discussion of should said guides be allowed on OS.

As far as an exploit, if the draft guides are able to reveal a player's "development" rating, bypassing the need to unlock that rating in-game, as intended, that is exploiting the game. Everyone is entitled to play the game however they want but that's besides the point of allowing members of OS to collude together to create a guide that bypasses the need to scout "development" ratings.

That said, if OS decides to prevent posting draft guides like they do with other exploit posting, cool, if not, cool too. Nobody that I am aware of is going to lose sleep over it either way, so these references to this being anymore than a civil discussion with various opinions, are unfounded.

So if I happen to have foreknowledge of various attributes of draft players through my other CCM playthroughs and I already know who's good and who's not, then I don't need to use scouting points to already know about the best draft candidates. Am I 'exploiting' the game because my knowledge is outside of the intended use of the scouting points?

So the more I play this game outside of each specific CCM, the bigger of an 'exploiter' I become? Eventually, I'm going to go through all 30 drafts (as will other users), so what happens then? Do we all just become 'exploiters'?

I just don't see how, with the current implementation of the draft system, a draft guide (that is just a collection of knowledge that all users could gain on their own), is exploitative in any way whatsoever.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

So if I happen to have foreknowledge of various attributes of draft players through my other CCM playthroughs and I already know who's good and who's not, then I don't need to use scouting points to already know about the best draft candidates. Am I 'exploiting' the game because my knowledge is outside of the intended use of the scouting points?

So the more I play this game outside of each specific CCM, the bigger of an 'exploiter' I become? Eventually, I'm going to go through all 30 drafts (as will other users), so what happens then? Do we all just become 'exploiters'?

I just don't see how, with the current implementation of the draft system, a draft guide (that is just a collection of knowledge that all users could gain on their own), is exploitative in any way whatsoever.

I think this is the last I will say about this because I feel like I am talking in circles, lol. Yes, if after playing the game fair and square, the lack of dynamic draft classes allows you to know certain draft class ratings without the need to scout them, as originally intended, that is exploiting the program, if you take advantage of that knowledge. However, that knowledge is no fault of your own, it just a flaw in the game design, much like playing the game so much one might find "money plays", by no fault of their own, just by playing the game.

I am talking about OS allowing gamers to come together to create a thread with the intention of making this exploitative information available to everyone BUT not allowing the same thing to be done with other exploitative information, like money plays. I don't understand the logic in allowing these draft guides but not allowing money play guides because I see both as ways to exploit deficiencies in the game design.

[Dempseylicious23]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

I think this is the last I will say about this because I feel like I am talking in circles, lol. Yes, if after playing the game fair and square, the lack of dynamic draft classes allows you to know certain draft class ratings without the need to scout them, as originally intended, that is exploiting the program, if you take advantage of that knowledge. However, that knowledge is no fault of your own, it just a flaw in the game design, much like playing the game so much one might find "money plays", by no fault of their own, just by playing the game.

I am talking about OS allowing gamers to come together to create a thread with the intention of making this exploitative information available to everyone BUT not allowing the same thing to be done with other exploitative information, like money plays. I don't understand the logic in allowing these draft guides but not allowing money play guides because I see both as ways to exploit deficiencies in the game design.

You can choose to use or not use money plays. It should be pretty apparent what is considered a "money play" if that play seems to have an inordinate success rate (for example, double TE streaks is nigh undefendable).

You can't control the knowledge you gain from playing multiple CCM's. You simply can't avoid using that information if you see the same draft class. Even if I purposefully don't draft guys that I know are either superstar development or have high overall ratings, that's still a way of using the knowledge I have gained (even if it makes my team worse). I simply know what I know, and there is not a chance I can blank my mind of certain things I have seen before in these drafts. It is literally impossible not to 'exploit' the game by your definition of the situation at hand. There's no way, if I have seen a draft class, to wipe my memory of everything I know from having already seen that draft class.

Explain to me how to go about not using the knowledge I have gained from a previous instance of a draft class. If your answer is simply, "Just don't draft the players you know are good," that's using the knowledge. If your answer is, "Forget what you know," please let me know how. There literally is no way not to, in some way however subtle it may be, to recall things and once that happens, oh no, you're using previous information. The only thing I could possibly think to do is to always scout the same exact way every single time I encounter a certain draft class because if I recall even a single stat that I've scouted before, even if it's as trivial as an awareness rating for a punter, it's exploiting by your definition.

That is why it's not an exploit. If you consider this 'exploiting', then every single madden user who plays more than one CCM this entire year until '14 is released is exploiting the game.

Does that make sense?

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

You can choose to use or not use money plays.
You can't control the knowledge you gain from playing multiple CCM's. You simply can't avoid using that information if you see the same draft class. Even if I purposefully don't draft guys that I know are either superstar development or have high overall ratings, that's still a way of using the knowledge I have gained (even if it makes my team worse). I simply know what I know, and there is not a chance I can blank my mind of certain things I have seen before in these drafts. It is literally impossible not to 'exploit' the game by your definition of the situation at hand. There's no way, if I have seen a draft class, to wipe my memory of everything I know from having already seen that draft class.

Explain to me how to go about not using the knowledge I have gained from a previous instance of a draft class. If your answer is simply, "Just don't draft the players you know are good," that's using the knowledge. If your answer is, "Forget what you know," please let me know how. There literally is no way not to, in some way however subtle it may be, to recall things and once that happens, oh no, you're using previous information. The only thing I could possibly think to do is to always scout the same exact way every single time I encounter a certain draft class because if I recall even a single stat that I've scouted before, even if it's as trivial as an awareness rating for a punter, it's exploiting by your definition.

That is why it's not an exploit. If you consider this 'exploiting', then every single madden user who plays more than one CCM this entire year until '14 is released is exploiting the game.

Does that make sense?

Dempsey, your very first sentence answers the rest of your post. And I already commented on this, but I'll say it once more. It is how you use this information that determines whether it is exploiting the game.

We all become familiar with drafts and their prospects. You can choose to use this information to your advantage, by not scouting the players you already know and then use those scouting points to learn new players, or, if your integrity is such, you can use your scouting points in each draft that is repeated to scout those players you already know, and then draft them...or...do not use your scouting points on them but then don't draft them. Just like you said about choosing to use money plays or not, eventually we will all come across all of this information on our own, only we can make the choice of whether we use that information to our advantage, or in a fair way.

This is why the argument of "put the information out there so everyone can have equal access to it, thus negating the advantage" does not hold water with me. I believe there are a lot of us, that will choose not to take advantage of this information when playing against others. And that is where this whole issue is most important. You (all of us) have an ethical responsibility when playing online to not take advantage of any, any exploits, knowledge, glitches, or even experience against our fellow league members in an unsportsmanlike way.

Having threads of any sort that provides information that is questionable does not affect those of us that would not use it to our advantage in the first place, it only increases the numbers of those players we "all" complain about online and, for whatever reason, label them as 12 year olds (no offense to any actual 12 year olds reading this).

Finally, I started this thread as a question. Not a demand! I believe I qualified the post very clearly that I was in a quandary over my belief in the right of the thread to be there and the damage that I thought (and this was the real reason I started the thread, to see if others viewed these threads as damaging or not) it may cause. So 79 posts later, I've thought several times of asking a Mod to close this thread, but haven't because it doesn't seem to belong to me anymore and it seems it may have been a more subjective/opinionated issue than I first believed.

Finally, 79 posts later, my decision would be to allow the threads, (I really am truly a reverent believer in never censoring information or knowledge, but in depending on an ethical, responsible society to make educated decisions regarding the application of all information for themselves!) as they do no harm whatsoever to individual players offline, (although either do other threads that are banned) and hope that those that use this information for their own enjoyment will be forthright and honest about it if they choose to participate in the online community. (Which by the way, it was the draft in the SFL Online Franchise Thread that generated this post by me in the first place.)

Really, that's what this (and all other ethical dilemmas) really boils down to: Practice good sportsmanship when playing with others Ethics are about who you are and what you do when you think you're not being watched

Oh, and thank you everyone for a positive thread. This could have very easily have gone the wrong direction, many, many times

[Dempseylicious23]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Dempsey, your very first sentence answers the rest of your post. And I already commented on this, but I'll say it once more. It is how you use this information that determines whether it is exploiting the game.

We all become familiar with drafts and their prospects. You can choose to use this information to your advantage, by not scouting the players you already know and then use those scouting points to learn new players, or, if your integrity is such, you can use your scouting points in each draft that is repeated to scout those players you already know, and then draft them...or...do not use your scouting points on them but then don't draft them. Just like you said about choosing to use money plays or not, eventually we will all come across all of this information on our own, only we can make the choice of whether we use that information to our advantage, or in a fair way.

No actually I didn't answer my own question. If you keep reading, then you would see I already addressed the point you attempt to make.

That said, I appreciate your answer, however, I still do not agree with your base premise.

Right there in the two bolded/italicized/underlined statements. You suggest (word for word), "you can use your scouting points in each draft that is repeated to scout those players you already know, and then draft them...or...do not use your scouting points on them but then don't draft them."

That right there, is using previous information gained from drafts, in order to draft a certain way, which, according to your views and the views others have expressed in this thread, is exploiting and is not in fact, practicing good sportsmanship. - I don't understand how you think this use of knowledge is different and therefore 'legitimate'. I also don't understand how you can't see how hypocritical you are being. You've pretty much just said, "They way I do things is the only way to do things and anyone else who does it differently is a cheater," yet you also are in a way, using your knowledge to gain a greater perspective, which is, as you define, cheating or exploiting.

There is a fine line between playing the way everyone else plays the game, and intentionally cheating to gain a competitive advantage. Using scouting points differently each time I see the same draft class (because I have knowledge about that draft class) is not "unsportsmanlike" or "exploiting", it's simply how everyone is expected to play the game. There is not a chance in any plane of existence anywhere that the developers were thinking, "Boy I sure do hope that nobody sees the same non-randomized, in order draft classes twice, that would surely exploit this entire system we strived so hard to make un-exploitable." There is not a chance the developers expected people to use their scouting points in the same manner every single time. What you're saying is, "Oh boy I hope the first time I see any draft classes I scout really well or else I'm screwed for this entire iteration of Madden!" Realistically, the concept of scouting then drafting the same players doesn't even fly because in user leagues, there's definitely a good chance someone picks a player that you have scouted/picked previously.

If it wasn't intended to be like this, where seeing draft classes over and over again gives a competitive advantage, there would by now be a better system in place. Draft order could be randomized, drafts themselves could be randomized. Also, preventing draft guides (or making them a lot harder to make) i's as easy as coding in a forced autosave after any scouting points are spent in all CCM types.

I understand what you're trying to get at SloeyEZ, but if it were the developers' expectations for the user to only ever be able to scout a certain amount of players, they would put a cap or a limit on them. As it stands now, the game allows you to create multiple CCM's, which essentially lifts any sort of 'scouting point cap/limit'. It's not bad programming, it's not bugged, it's not exploitative, it's simply how the game is designed to operate. The programming is doing what is intended to do, therefore, it's not bad or faulty programming.

Nano-blitzes, double TE streaks, and the like are exploitative because they explicitly take advantage of faulty coding and poor programming within the confines of the game. The programming in these cases does not do what it is intended to do and is therefore, bad or faulty programming.




TL;DR - Using your scouting points in the same exact way every single iteration of a draft class, or using them on other players and not drafting players you have scouted before is a way of 'exploiting' by your (SloeyEZ) definition and therefore you have only presented a problem, still no solution. With the system you suggest of, either scout the same players every time and draft them, or, don't scout them or draft them, will eventually leave you with no one you haven't scouted, therefore you can't ever draft anyone.

[Dempseylicious23]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

You (all of us) have an ethical responsibility when playing online to not take advantage of any, any exploits, knowledge, glitches, or even experience against our fellow league members in an unsportsmanlike way.

...
...

...
Really, that's what this (and all other ethical dilemmas) really boils down to: Practice good sportsmanship when playing with others Ethics are about who you are and what you do when you think you're not being watched

Oh, and thank you everyone for a positive thread. This could have very easily have gone the wrong direction, many, many times

Ok so one more question SloeyEZ. Let's say I'm in an online user league where a few of the users don't know how to, oh I don't know, let's just say they don't know how to use hot routes offensively or defensively. Is it unsportsmanlike if I used hot routes in a game against him when he couldn't do the same to me, or am I simply playing the game as it was intended to be played because I have the knowledge to perform on field adjustments? I cannot be responsible for the ineptitude of those I am playing against.

So, is it unsportsmanlike, to use knowledge of the controller and what the buttons do, to play against someone who doesn't know the controls as well as I do?

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

No actually I didn't answer my own question. If you keep reading, then you would see I already addressed the point you attempt to make.

That said, I appreciate your answer, however, I still do not agree with your base premise.

Right there in the two bolded/italicized/underlined statements. You suggest (word for word), "you can use your scouting points in each draft that is repeated to scout those players you already know, and then draft them...or...do not use your scouting points on them but then don't draft them."

That right there, is using previous information gained from drafts, in order to draft a certain way, which, according to your views and the views others have expressed in this thread, is exploiting and is not in fact, practicing good sportsmanship. - I don't understand how you think this use of knowledge is different and therefore 'legitimate'. I also don't understand how you can't see how hypocritical you are being. You've pretty much just said, "They way I do things is the only way to do things and anyone else who does it differently is a cheater," yet you also are in a way, using your knowledge to gain a greater perspective, which is, as you define, cheating or exploiting.

There is a fine line between playing the way everyone else plays the game, and intentionally cheating to gain a competitive advantage. Using scouting points differently each time I see the same draft class (because I have knowledge about that draft class) is not "unsportsmanlike" or "exploiting", it's simply how everyone is expected to play the game. There is not a chance in any plane of existence anywhere that the developers were thinking, "Boy I sure do hope that nobody sees the same non-randomized, in order draft classes twice, that would surely exploit this entire system we strived so hard to make un-exploitable." There is not a chance the developers expected people to use their scouting points in the same manner every single time. What you're saying is, "Oh boy I hope the first time I see any draft classes I scout really well or else I'm screwed for this entire iteration of Madden!" Realistically, the concept of scouting then drafting the same players doesn't even fly because in user leagues, there's definitely a good chance someone picks a player that you have scouted/picked previously.

If it wasn't intended to be like this, where seeing draft classes over and over again gives a competitive advantage, there would by now be a better system in place. Draft order could be randomized, drafts themselves could be randomized. Also, preventing draft guides (or making them a lot harder to make) i's as easy as coding in a forced autosave after any scouting points are spent in all CCM types.

I understand what you're trying to get at SloeyEZ, but if it were the developers' expectations for the user to only ever be able to scout a certain amount of players, they would put a cap or a limit on them. As it stands now, the game allows you to create multiple CCM's, which essentially lifts any sort of 'scouting point cap/limit'. It's not bad programming, it's not bugged, it's not exploitative, it's simply how the game is designed to operate. The programming is doing what is intended to do, therefore, it's not bad or faulty programming.

Nano-blitzes, double TE streaks, and the like are exploitative because they explicitly take advantage of faulty coding and poor programming within the confines of the game. The programming in these cases does not do what it is intended to do and is therefore, bad or faulty programming.




TL;DR - Using your scouting points in the same exact way every single iteration of a draft class, or using them on other players and not drafting players you have scouted before is a way of 'exploiting' by your (SloeyEZ) definition and therefore you have only presented a problem, still no solution. With the system you suggest of, either scout the same players every time and draft them, or, don't scout them or draft them, will eventually leave you with no one you haven't scouted, therefore you can't ever draft anyone.

I'm afraid you're wrong and have misread/misunderstood something I wrote somewhere along the way. I never mentioned anything about using any "knowledge" is exploitation. Must have been someone else. That would be like a scouting member of the Panthers having a "buddy" at Midwestern North Dakota State who has a Running Back on his team that the Panthers should really look at...not common knowledge, this player would have never been scouted by any other nfl team...but this guy knew about him because of his "buddy". This is how I usually (in my head ) fictionalize/rationalize the familiarity we all get from starting over/playing multiple leagues etc. and knowing a lot of what is going to happen. it's a game, it's not real life, the spontaneity, unknown randomness has limitations. You're really belaboring a minor point in the big picture that I never really even stated. Knowing draft prospects without scouting them is going to happen to everyone eventually. it is a natural process, and not exploiting. again, how you use that information is where you personally, for yourself, have to decide whether it is cheating or not. When you reach that point where you don't have anyone to scout...then you don't scout and just do your draft, because there is not randomization in the draft classes, it is a flaw in the game we all have to deal with. The game figuratively gets "old" eventually. No different than learning where all the secret coins are in a Mario level...I'm just not going to read a guide that tells me where they are...I'm going to find them on my own tyvm.

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Ok so one more question SloeyEZ. Let's say I'm in an online user league where a few of the users don't know how to, oh I don't know, let's just say they don't know how to use hot routes offensively or defensively. Is it unsportsmanlike if I used hot routes in a game against him when he couldn't do the same to me, or am I simply playing the game as it was intended to be played because I have the knowledge to perform on field adjustments? I cannot be responsible for the ineptitude of those I am playing against.

So, is it unsportsmanlike, to use knowledge of the controller and what the buttons do, to play against someone who doesn't know the controls as well as I do?

Nope, it would not be unsportsmanlike....but i believe if you took a poll (go ahead and make one ) on here, the majority of "league" players (remember this is a community yr going to be playing with for months or more) would inform that player about hot routes because they want the best challenge and opponents in their league. They don't want to win a game solely because they know their opponent doesn't know how to do hot routes.

This goes for "league" players only because it is supposed to be a simulation of being in the NFL and having a "career". The above example would not apply to one-off single player games by any means. Look what happened Schiano this year on trying to go for Manning when he kneeled. lol, the Twitter/media thread (like this one) had many opinions on whether it was good "sportsmanship" Schiano said "you never quit and play every play in essence" yet the majority of the media/league said it was an unwritten rule...etc. Well, Schiano has not done it sense.

Sportsmanship is about playing the best opponent possible on the most level field as possible. A win any other way is not as satisfying.

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Ok so one more question SloeyEZ. Let's say I'm in an online user league where a few of the users don't know how to, oh I don't know, let's just say they don't know how to use hot routes offensively or defensively. Is it unsportsmanlike if I used hot routes in a game against him when he couldn't do the same to me, or am I simply playing the game as it was intended to be played because I have the knowledge to perform on field adjustments? I cannot be responsible for the ineptitude of those I am playing against.

So, is it unsportsmanlike, to use knowledge of the controller and what the buttons do, to play against someone who doesn't know the controls as well as I do?

I don't really understand how the ineptitude of someone playing the game correlates to cheating the scouting system in place for CCM. If they don't know how to hot route it's not hard to learn. If they want to know the overall of every player in the upcoming draft they would need, more or less, 2,688,000 scouting points. But then again who needs scouting points when you could just purchase the Google Scout Package.

If other people in your league are scouting fairly then you're really just cheating them. Knowledge is power and when you have the answer key to something that you're supposed to have limited access to, it's unfair to the other people in your league whether they have access to it or not.

It would be like going on Wheel of Fortune and having somebody tell you all the answers beforehand. The other contestants are there trying to figure out the puzzle while you're solving them before you even spin. Would be their ineptitude that caused them to lose or in this case expect a 7th round projected player to last past the first round?

Like I said before, when it comes down to it, it's on the leagues to determine how to handle this type of stuff. Easiest way to do it is to just ensure that everybody is made aware of and has access to the entire upcoming draft class. If you're going to play online with other people, you have to expect and prepare for this kind of thing.

[Dempseylicious23]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Nope, it would not be unsportsmanlike....but i believe if you took a poll (go ahead and make one ) on here, the majority of "league" players (remember this is a community yr going to be playing with for months or more) would inform that player about hot routes because they want the best challenge and opponents in their league. They don't want to win a game solely because they know their opponent doesn't know how to do hot routes.

This goes for "league" players only because it is supposed to be a simulation of being in the NFL and having a "career". The above example would not apply to one-off single player games by any means. Look what happened Schiano this year on trying to go for Manning when he kneeled. lol, the Twitter/media thread (like this one) had many opinions on whether it was good "sportsmanship" Schiano said "you never quit and play every play in essence" yet the majority of the media/league said it was an unwritten rule...etc. Well, Schiano has not done it sense.

Sportsmanship is about playing the best opponent possible on the most level field as possible. A win any other way is not as satisfying.

I agree that I would inform everyone about how to do something if they asked how to do something (I'm not really sure how I would know if people didn't hot route if they didn't tell me). However, it's not really the responsibility of the individual player to teach everyone proper stick skills. If the league commissioner wants to post a 'guide' to how to perform all the button commands then so be it. I believe this is the exact same as posting these guides for draft classes. It's a collection of knowledge that one gains through repeated plays of the game. I see no difference here.

I don't necessarily think that your definition of sportsmanship is too far off. I like the way Wikipedia puts it --> Sportsmanship can be conceptualized as an enduring and relatively stable characteristic or disposition such that individuals differ in the way they are generally expected to behave in sport situations. In general, sportsmanship refers to virtues such as fairness, self-control, courage, and persistence, and has been associated with interpersonal concepts of treating others and being treated fairly, maintaining self-control if dealing with others, and respect for both authority and opponents.

So fairness is a part of it, as is respect for my opponents and the authority figures. That means that the authority rules should be respected in any situation. If the authority allows the guides, then use them. If the authority doesn't, then don't. It's as simple as that.

Also, I apologize I did mistake something another user said as something you said SloeyEZ. I still don't think one should restrict themself by using scouting points to unlock the same statistics in recurring drafts if you plan to draft the same players. I personally think that it's unfair to those who like to keep track of things like draftees' stats. I don't feel it's fair to restrict a person's commitment to detail.

All in all, I think we're not too far off in our views.

I don't really understand how the ineptitude of someone playing the game correlates to cheating the scouting system in place for CCM. If they don't know how to hot route it's not hard to learn. If they want to know the overall of every player in the upcoming draft they would need, more or less, 2,688,000 scouting points. But then again who needs scouting points when you could just purchase the Google Scout Package.

Ineptitude at playing the game in the way I described it is due to one's lack on knowledge of the game of Madden. If you want to know how to cause your player to perform a certain maneuver, you have to know what buttons to press. To do it successfully, you have to know when to use that maneuver, which means you have to recognize cognitively the right moment to press the button. These things come from both, #1) playing the game a lot and experimenting and #2) reading what button inputs perform what commands somewhere (such as the game manual). The most important part of pulling the play off consistently is not the physical act of pushing the button, but the knowledge of what button to push and when to push it. It's just a collection of knowledge available to anyone as long as they are perceptive and can learn through their gameplays. EA doesn't tell you, "It's best to use a spin move in this situation," or "Curl to Flat zones are more effective than Flat zones", or "the biggest weakness of single high safety defenses is a slot seam route", or "cover 2 defenses require a highly athletic MLB with good coverage skills". That you have to figure out by playing the game.

Now, being successful at drafting in Madden 13 requires #1) smart use of available scouting points and #2) information you have previously gathered from the times you have seen this draft class in other CCM playthroughs. The only way to really understand how to use your scouting points to their full potential (limited as they are) is to know what attributes are actually important at each player position. EA does not provide really much mention of what these statistics do. Ask the forum if awareness is an important statistic and you'll find a lot of people will have different answers. Also, knowing that development is generally tied to high awareness is probably something that not everyone knows. If we want to be fair, everyone should be informed which stats are relevant for which position groups and generally how player development is somewhat related to awareness. Also, not everyone knows that overall rating is most heavily dependent upon awareness, everyone needs to be made aware of that.

If we want to be completely fair, the player who is considered the 'best' at whatever (playing the game, trading, drafting, etc) needs to teach everyone else their methods. I simply don't believe that is fair to those who have come to learn the nuances of the game.

Somehow it has become wrong to become 'better' at drafting through being perceptive of patterns I pick up through multiple playthroughs outside of actual gameplay, but becoming better at the game itself through being perceptive of patterns I pick up is totally legitimate. I don't think becoming 'better' at drafting from seeing multiple instances of a draft is 'unsporstmanlike' because it is learning a collection of knowledge to which every member of the league has access. It would be cheating to sync up a draft in an offline CCM and scouting from there, but using knowledge I have from having legitimately played through that draft already is just that, something I learned from playing the game that is not a deliberate exploit of bad game programming.

I'm not advocating cheating the draft, I'm simply saying that it shouldn't be considered cheating if I use knowledge I have from a previous draft class. Even if I've seen the class two or three times, I can't scout anywhere near everything if I use the points in the intended manner. It's not like having the answers to WoF, it's more like I watch a ton of WoF and I recognize the patterns present in the game so I have a general idea of what the answer might be.

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Now, being successful at drafting in Madden 13 requires #1) smart use of available scouting points and #2) information you have previously gathered from the times you have seen this draft class in other CCM playthroughs. The only way to really understand how to use your scouting points to their full potential (limited as they are) is to know what attributes are actually important at each player position. EA does not provide really much mention of what these statistics do. Ask the forum if awareness is an important statistic and you'll find a lot of people will have different answers. Also, knowing that development is generally tied to high awareness is probably something that not everyone knows. If we want to be fair, everyone should be informed which stats are relevant for which position groups and generally how player development is somewhat related to awareness. Also, not everyone knows that overall rating is most heavily dependent upon awareness, everyone needs to be made aware of that.

I'm going to disagree with you just a lil bit here because there is a difference in the "information previously gathered" when talking about the draft as opposed to game play. "Experience" or information previously gathered as you call it is a part of the game and how the game is designed for game play but it is not how the game is designed to be played when talking about the static players of the draft. In theory, there should be no "previous information" for the draft, but as we all know, until EA makes draft prospects dynamic, we just have to deal with it.

Oh, and P.S. : I think what you are talking about where the best at each concept would have to teach everyone else is actually happening in the real NFL via the fact (and you hear it all the time) that the NFL is a "copycat" league. Meaning each time a coach develops something ingenious that works...by the next year, everyone is doing it. Think of the Wildcat in real football. It would not be that hard to imagine that if Spanos ( i think it was him that first used wildcat in nfl) were playing Madden, we all would have said putting a RB at QB is cheating and you can't do it But by the next year, everybody else was either using it, or figured out how to defend it.

So in that respect, the "best" does teach everyone else how to play

[Dempseylicious23]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

I'm going to disagree with you just a lil bit here because there is a difference in the "information previously gathered" when talking about the draft as opposed to game play. "Experience" or information previously gathered as you call it is a part of the game and how the game is designed for game play but it is not how the game is designed to be played when talking about the static players of the draft. In theory, there should be no "previous information" for the draft, but as we all know, until EA makes draft prospects dynamic, we just have to deal with it.

Oh, and P.S. : I think what you are talking about where the best at each concept would have to teach everyone else is actually happening in the real NFL via the fact (and you hear it all the time) that the NFL is a "copycat" league. Meaning each time a coach develops something ingenious that works...by the next year, everyone is doing it. Think of the Wildcat in real football. It would not be that hard to imagine that if Spanos ( i think it was him that first used wildcat in nfl) were playing Madden, we all would have said putting a RB at QB is cheating and you can't do it But by the next year, everybody else was either using it, or figured out how to defend it.

So in that respect, the "best" does teach everyone else how to play

I suppose I can understand the way you view the draft and scouting, but really that all comes down to an individual's view of how the designers of the game intended the scouting system to be used. Any one of us can sit here and say that the developers either did or did not intend the scouting system to be used in a certain way, that doesn't make anything we say true.

Personally, I find it ridiculous that it seems to be the developers' intent to force us to use scouting points for raw physical stats like speed, jumping, agility, etc. Madden should have NFL combine times and figures account for that and that information should be publicly available for anyone to view within the game. Scouting points should be used for intangible stats only, you know, things you could only figure out by watching games these guys play in college like, 'does this guy fumble the ball/miss catches often' or, 'does this guy read the game well'. I think most users would agree with me on this.

You are right though, this type of thing should be discussed and determined by each league individually.

Also, to your point of the NFL being a 'copycat' league (some truth to it, coaches sometimes copy successful schemes because in the NFL if you don't have success (win) you get fired). While you do see other coaches 'copy' plays and things like that, they aren't being taught by the opposing coaches themselves, they learn from film study and working through the X's and O's within their own organization. Also coaches, whether they be head coaches, offensive/defensive coordinators, line coaches or what have you, tend to get shuffled around a lot in the NFL. You see similarities in different teams' gameplans because these guys have been on the same staff together at some point in their careers. They've both worked together at some point so chances are they like to do similar things with their teams if they have similar personnel. There are multiple reasons why it seems like some teams do really similar things.

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

now what New England is doing is the EPITOME of unsportsmanlike play. up 52-24 with less than 5 minutes and they're still throwing and scoring with Brady...and running plays like End Arounds ... i'm not the least bit surprised with Bellicheat though...He'll have some excuse as to why he is doing it also...of course.