Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

[bucky60]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

My head hurts.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

And Phobia, I would like to add, if I have a player with a specific trait, he should be performing with it WITHOUT me controlling him. I did a test on this last night with Haloti Ngata. I performed the Bull Rush several times when I controlled him. When I left him in the hands of the A.I. and controlled Ed Reed, Ellerbe or Lewis, he did NOTHING

That's how I feel with my bookends. I have Tuck and JPP on the ends, but I like to user a linebacker. Mostly Chase Blackburn because he's weak. If I do that, my defensive ends don't do anything on their own. I have to blitz in order for them to get free. What's the point of having these stud players? The fact that it's 2012 and we have an issue like this is the most concerning.

Let's just cut through the crap and all come clean and honest here. None of us believe these developers are capable of creating a quality football game. Even if they had unlimited resources and funds. At this point there is no reason to get on them to fix anything, because even if you explain it like you would have to for a 2 year old to understand it, they won't get it. They don't know HOW to do any of this. The only thing that can save football gaming now is someone else making the games.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

That's how I feel with my bookends. I have Tuck and JPP on the ends, but I like to user a linebacker. Mostly Chase Blackburn because he's weak. If I do that, my defensive ends don't do anything on their own. I have to blitz in order for them to get free. What's the point of having these stud players? The fact that it's 2012 and we have an issue like this is the most concerning.

Let's just cut through the crap and all come clean and honest here. None of us believe these developers are capable of creating a quality football game. Even if they had unlimited resources and funds. At this point there is no reason to get on them to fix anything, because even if you explain it like you would have to for a 2 year old to understand it, they won't get it. They don't know HOW to do any of this. The only thing that can save football gaming now is someone else making the games.

This in the sad truth. While I appreciate all the deep thoughtful discussion that goes on around OS about Madden, the game completely overlooks so many basic elements. The depth of ratings aside, it absurd that the AI doesn't perform adequately to its' real life counter parts. In last gen football games I had a saying "I don't User control Pro Bowlers" because it made sense that the AI for those players should be better than me. However with Madden this gen, stars don't play like stars controlled by the AI and the game just has very little rhyme or reason behind it. So many things in Madden at this point come across as gimmicks with very little substance to them.

There is simply no excuse for Madden be such a poor representation of NFL football.

[bucky60]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

This in the sad truth. While I appreciate all the deep thoughtful discussion that goes on around OS about Madden, the game completely overlooks so many basic elements. The depth of ratings aside, it absurd that the AI doesn't perform adequately to its' real life counter parts. In last gen football games I had a saying "I don't User control Pro Bowlers" because it made sense that the AI for those players should be better than me. However with Madden this gen, stars don't play like stars controlled by the AI and the game just has very little rhyme or reason behind it. So many things in Madden at this point come across as gimmicks with very little substance to them.

There is simply no excuse for Madden be such a poor representation of NFL football.

A sports game should play to the assigned ratings and in a smart way. The challenge for someone using a joystick should be to play as well as when the CPU controls the player. I'm with KB or Taz or whoever said that difficulty sliders should make the joystick threshold more or less difficult, but the players should play to their ratings and the ratings should matter. Difficulty should not touch ratings.

I'm convinced that EA/Tib will never create a smart NFL Video game (CPU controlled entities play to their ratings in a smart way).

And this is why MY HEAD HURTS. I greatly appreciate the intelligent discussions and incredible time and effort some of you put into this, but I fear it will go no where. Still I encourage all of you to keep trying!!!!!!

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

And Phobia, I would like to add, if I have a player with a specific trait, he should be performing with it WITHOUT me controlling him. I did a test on this last night with Haloti Ngata. I performed the Bull Rush several times when I controlled him. When I left him in the hands of the A.I. and controlled Ed Reed, Ellerbe or Lewis, he did NOTHING

I know LB it is just frustrating on so many levels.

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

This in the sad truth. While I appreciate all the deep thoughtful discussion that goes on around OS about Madden, the game completely overlooks so many basic elements. The depth of ratings aside, it absurd that the AI doesn't perform adequately to its' real life counter parts. In last gen football games I had a saying "I don't User control Pro Bowlers" because it made sense that the AI for those players should be better than me. However with Madden this gen, stars don't play like stars controlled by the AI and the game just has very little rhyme or reason behind it. So many things in Madden at this point come across as gimmicks with very little substance to them.

There is simply no excuse for Madden be such a poor representation of NFL football.

Big it stems from the fact a realistic direction was not taken from the creation of the code. Now they are trying to go back and attempt to fix poor code decisions. The problem that is like building a house with untreated wood. When it starts to rot and decay you cover it with paint instead of doing it right the first time by using the right building materials.

My point is now there is no way to really make this code work in way you would like to see. As painful as it is and how much they don't want to do it but a entire new game needs to be built from the ground up with strictly the mind set of competing with the top dog franchises like The Show and NBA 2k in the realism department. This current engine and design I just don't see if ever being able to do that.

[simfballcritic]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Big it stems from the fact a realistic direction was not taken from the creation of the code. Now they are trying to go back and attempt to fix poor code decisions. The problem that is like building a house with untreated wood. When it starts to rot and decay you cover it with paint instead of doing it right the first time by using the right building materials.

My point is now there is no way to really make this code work in way you would like to see. As painful as it is and how much they don't want to do it but a entire new game needs to be built from the ground up with strictly the mind set of competing with the top dog franchises like The Show and NBA 2k in the realism department. This current engine and design I just don't see if ever being able to do that.

What up Phobia,

I agree with you 100%. At some point they will have to re-write codes in order for the game to perform in a way that us sim heads would like it to. In my talks with the Devs I know they are focusing on simulation, but like you said they must do what is necessary to achieve that goal.

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

What up Phobia,

I agree with you 100%. At some point they will have to re-write codes in order for the game to perform in a way that us sim heads would like it to. In my talks with the Devs I know they are focusing on simulation, but like you said they must do what is necessary to achieve that goal.

Whats good Sim! I know we on the same level! Get at me when you get a chance, need to get my number from Smitty and holla at me.

[bucky60]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Big it stems from the fact a realistic direction was not taken from the creation of the code. Now they are trying to go back and attempt to fix poor code decisions. The problem that is like building a house with untreated wood. When it starts to rot and decay you cover it with paint instead of doing it right the first time by using the right building materials.

My point is now there is no way to really make this code work in way you would like to see. As painful as it is and how much they don't want to do it but a entire new game needs to be built from the ground up with strictly the mind set of competing with the top dog franchises like The Show and NBA 2k in the realism department. This current engine and design I just don't see if ever being able to do that.

It's cost/benefit (return on investment). I just don't see EA/Tib justifying the cost to do this. Though I sure wish they would, but w/o totally stripping the game like they did before. Ideally, I would want them to have two parallel efforts. One would be improving the current years engine to make it better while another team was creating a new engine (or engines) for a somewhat near future release. But the cost would just not be justified. With all of our dreaming, we have to consider.....

Is it worth the $'s for EA/Tib to spend? Thinking all this through practically, I just don't see it. It would take some real major loss of sales before they would invest in a new SIM engine. I did my part. I didn't buy 2013.

But honest to god, I love what you guys are talking about.

[RandyBass]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Making player ratings meaningful would go a long ways with this game. Add in a greater variety of animations and player models to match those ratings and you would have yourself a nice foundation, with players being well distinguished from one another. Top it off with some well coded AI that had those players playing to their ability, and you'd have a game that would absolutely capture people's attention.

Is that... Too much to ask?

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Big it stems from the fact a realistic direction was not taken from the creation of the code. Now they are trying to go back and attempt to fix poor code decisions. The problem that is like building a house with untreated wood. When it starts to rot and decay you cover it with paint instead of doing it right the first time by using the right building materials.

My point is now there is no way to really make this code work in way you would like to see. As painful as it is and how much they don't want to do it but a entire new game needs to be built from the ground up with strictly the mind set of competing with the top dog franchises like The Show and NBA 2k in the realism department. This current engine and design I just don't see if ever being able to do that.

I hear you but my cynicism has kicked in all the way after 8 years of this product and I don't even believe they have the intention of making Madden that way. If everything we heard out of EA Tiburon was about representing NFL football well AND there was honest acknowledgement about what it takes to get there, I would believe differently. However, considering the current product and past products they have produced this gen, along with the expressed satisfaction with their work from those affiliated with creating the game, I believe this mess is intentional, lol.

Rgiles posted something recently where he admitted to discussing an obvious Ai issue with someone affiliated with making the game and they had no idea what his issue was. Stuff like that is rampant and often even spills over into discussions with gamers in the community. If anyone states "Madden is a bad football game", I honestly don't feel like they even need to be asked to elaborate because the list for what's football good about the game is shorter than what's wrong. The point I am making is that no way I can take anyone seriously about wanting to improve the football in Madden in the future, that is proud of this game currently.

Phobia, I am literally sitting here laughing out loud at thought of someone that worked on Madden, playing it and thinking, "that's a pretty good football game", lol. I am about to stop because I don't want to get in trouble but if anyone plays or watches on Youtube other current sports sims and then M13, the drop in representation of their sports is glaring. I actually hope Kolbe was able to hand pick like minded devs to work with him on Madden for the new consoles and not one single person proud of the football quality of next gen Madden is allowed near it.

[splff3000]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

FANTASTIC post King!!!

A decade of layered code on top of code has rendered the gameplay & rating connection to be by far the biggest head scratching debacle.

Instead what we see each year is a "section" of code rewritten or modified to get new intended results, like the passing changes of this year. Because of how much layered code has been compounded on top one another going in and simply fixing how the ratings interact with the gameplay is a massive undertaking.

Honestly how the ratings interact with one another need to be greatly simplified. It should not take a degree from MIT to breakdown the logic of the ratings. Plus the interactions with the ratings is so interwoven if makes for a mess of randomness.

A simple explanation of what I mean is this.

Strength should mean just that pure strength. So a 350 pound offensive lineman with a 90 strength should completely man handle a 160 pound CB play in and play out. Just powering him back. Where the CB can turn the tides is his speed to get around him before the lineman can get a hand on him. Instead what we get is a 350lb lineman standing up patty caking a 160lb CB as if they hand fighting.



Quit making our NFL players into girly man-women.

Now where things get really complicated for the user is when you got to assess all these ratings together. Ok so he is a 80 awareness, 75 pass block, ohhhh but he is a 93 run block so he is a run blocker, but wait he is only a 79 in strength so he is weak, oh but wait he is a 90 in impact block so he must do something good right??? Then you are not only comparing all these different intangibles to how they apply in the game yet you are trying to decipher this among hundreds of players and who to start, who to draft, etc.

Strength should be just that, speed should be just that, pass block skill should be just that, block shed skill should correlate against their block skill, and on and on. Yet even with all this comparison it should be in a easy form to look at and process. Showing a DT ratings then see everything from his throw power to his kick accuracy is just flat out DUMB and wasted time and space for the user to see how the player "SHOULD" perform.

I personally think ratings are hard to turn into "on-field" actions and it appear realistic. Real players are not rated, it is speed, power, agility, and mental ability against one another. Of course you have the specific abilities such as throw strength and accuracy but most players are not defined in this manner.

A 6'2" big CB such as Browner with the Seahawks naturally has a better time being physical and jamming WRs because of his physical size. Yet in madden this has to be accomplished by adjusting 6 or so ratings just to "appear" as if it will affect how he players like this. His natural WEIGHT and STRENGTH should dictate how he will battle a WR against their WEIGHT and STRENGTH. Then once the jam is finished his SPEED, AGILITY, ACCELERATION, and AWARENESS should dictate how well he can cover the corner versus his same physical and mental skill set.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qcUS2sGRqhE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

My point is that all these ratings confuse things and do not reflect how players play naturally on the field. About the only rating I can see differently as a "subjective rating" would be something like "play maker" and have it give bonuses to the other abilities to mimic guys who are just naturally that superstar ability or that "IT factor" we hear about, someone like Polamalu, Suggs, Manning, etc. Isn't this how real players are challenged against one another?

Excellent excellent post!!!! I have felt this way for years.

[Phobia]

Thanks guys.

Next thing we need to discuss is player movement and how it should "feel". We all know currently that the running feels twitchy and far from realistic. It is literally the most important feature in the game. It makes up 100% of the game every single play.

One of my biggest pet peeves with the game is how defenders literally mimic the ball carrier. If you weave or aka twitch your way up field, watching the defenders mimic the movement EXACTLY at the same moment is terrible and greatly highlights how bad we need weight affect momentum and change of direction then tie that into awareness how fast a defender can "react" to those change in directions. Bottom line they should not mimic they runner like we are playing old school tecmo bowl.


Sent from da lil phone.

[KBLover]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

If the bolded is the case then how do you explain a 92 STR offensive tackle not holding a block for at least 1 second on a 65 STR CB? It doesn't compute. I do think there are some MAGIC plays in Madden that overshoot ratings which takes us back to Madden 10. That year everyone ran Strong Close out of their minds because the personnel did not matter on Off Tackle and the Toss. Those two plays dominated Madden 10 no matter which defender was there and no matter the TE. The case is clearly evident when you move out of that formation. In Madden 10 line up in a basic I form and watch the OLB always destroy the TE and stop the run in the backfield. EVERY PLAY. But then in strong close the OLB/DE is nowhere to be found.

Plays do influence the AI, absolutely, and it does mess up ratings/abilities.

I think it might be why PRC is "the most important" defensive rating, because it can break the player out of this influence.

It goes back to the 'forced' nature of things to an extent. Some plays probably 'force' a certain start, which can disregard ratings. Some players (those with high PRC?) might not "go with the script" and they can blow up the whole play.

I think sliders mess with this, too. It can cause some "starts" to completely screw up, or it can make it go off without a hitch every time. That's part of why it can be hard to find a good balance. What you see might be because the team isn't running any of these kinds of plays...but the next time, the next team has a lot of them, and I wonder why Ray Lewis can get 15 tackles one game, then 4 the next - even replaying the same team.

[KBLover]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Now where things get really complicated for the user is when you got to assess all these ratings together. Ok so he is a 80 awareness, 75 pass block, ohhhh but he is a 93 run block so he is a run blocker, but wait he is only a 79 in strength so he is weak, oh but wait he is a 90 in impact block so he must do something good right??? Then you are not only comparing all these different intangibles to how they apply in the game yet you are trying to decipher this among hundreds of players and who to start, who to draft, etc.

I'd interpret that as he's not going to push Wilfork around and will need help (low STR for an OL), and heaven help him against a bull rush from Wilfork (low STR, low PBK, Wilfork is a monster). With that IBL, though, I'd want to get him on the edge so he can run over some poor CB or something.

Personally, I have no problem with this. I wish DBs were rated on how they handle individual routes - more situational separation of ability, the better, imo. To me, the problem isn't that there's too many ratings, it's that the game doesn't consider them at all times (the 'magic play' type thing LB was talking about, among other things like fundamental football intelligence in the players, etc.)

I personally think ratings are hard to turn into "on-field" actions and it appear realistic. Real players are not rated, it is speed, power, agility, and mental ability against one another. Of course you have the specific abilities such as throw strength and accuracy but most players are not defined in this manner.

They aren't "rated" against each other, but if Ngata is trying to blow up a run play, his speed, power, agility, instincts, etc are going to determine how well he'll do. He has a certain level of these things. These are better or worse than other players. That can't be thrown out, imo. In computer games, that's ratings.

A 6'2" big CB such as Browner with the Seahawks naturally has a better time being physical and jamming WRs because of his physical size. Yet in madden this has to be accomplished by adjusting 6 or so ratings just to "appear" as if it will affect how he players like this. His natural WEIGHT and STRENGTH should dictate how he will battle a WR against their WEIGHT and STRENGTH. Then once the jam is finished his SPEED, AGILITY, ACCELERATION, and AWARENESS should dictate how well he can cover the corner versus his same physical and mental skill set.

A strong corner doesn't mean he can use press coverage. It would help him if his technique is correct, just like being fast enough to run with any WR is a big help going up against a blazing fast WR, but it's not enough alone.

There is always a technique difference among players. It shouldn't just be "I have high strength, so I should always jam the receiver."

Physical ability should, of course, be a significant factor. All the technique in the world can't help a guy if he's too physically overmatched. It just shouldn't be the sole determining factor.

IMO:

Physical ratings = what physical prowess/abilities you have.
Mental ratings = how you read the field/what's happening
Technique ratings = how well you use what you have to do what you want to do.

To me, all three of these areas are at work in football. A player can have good physical ability, read the wrong thing, and do that wrong thing very well...to no positive effect. Some players can do the right thing with lesser physical skill, but do it SO WELL that it doesn't matter.

I'm not saying Madden "needs" all the ratings it has, but if ratings are going to get dropped/condensed, how are these areas going to be reflected realistically?

I still hold the thought that the number of ratings is not the problem. It's the game's use (or non-use) of them in various situations, the lack of physical considerations (i.e. the STR thing not helping push/overpower, just "hold") and overall player AI.