If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

[Smoke6]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I'm glad you posted this so I can bring up a point I did in another thread which likely got overlooked. If you believe player movement not being properly addressed in M25 equates to that game being a failure, then how can you believe M13 is anything but a failure? We all know player movement wasn't even addressed at all in that game, much less properly, so there shouldn't be a double standard, right?

This is exactly what I was referring to in another thread in regard to anyone that played M13 when it was being developed and me not understanding how it could be considered an acceptable football sim with player movement that way. However, the moment it is fixed or at least addressed in a new edition, it will be admitted by Tiburon and it's affiliates how crucial it is for representing football and how trash the previous editions that didn't have it were. Even worse, those that dare call out M13 as a failure of a football sim due to player movement, among other things, before it's fashionable to do so when a new edition has addressed it, are labeled EA/Madden hatemongers, perfectionist, other company fanboys, etc. SMH

On topic, these fixes could provide a more distinct differential between each players performance on the field and therefore various team dynamics. So a team with strong pass rush personnel should be able to have success with a less skilled secondary versus a team with weaker pass rush personnel needing to have a better secondary and/or better blitz schemes to compensate.

Beautiful post!

Foot work in this game is the most crucial part of playing ANY SPORT even golf and bowling! For EA to have gotten away with this for soo long is really on us the consumer, but oh well. Im not looking forward to future maddens until I have confirmation that we finally have a decent football game that applies the football aspects properly, im not asking for 100% sim, but proper footplanting, OL/DL interactions, and an adequate AI would do wonders for me in done right.

I'm also not feeling any passion in this game at all, it just seems like a production line type of game to me. I hate playing games where everyone does what works because of the flaws in the game, it gets old and boring fast. I'll be trying to get back into baseball this week as im picking up the show when i get home! Good day fellas!

[jpdavis82]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I'm glad you posted this so I can bring up a point I did in another thread which likely got overlooked. If you believe player movement not being properly addressed in M25 equates to that game being a failure, then how can you believe M13 is anything but a failure? We all know player movement wasn't even addressed at all in that game, much less properly, so there shouldn't be a double standard, right?

This is exactly what I was referring to in another thread in regard to anyone that played M13 when it was being developed and me not understanding how it could be considered an acceptable football sim with player movement that way. However, the moment it is fixed or at least addressed in a new edition, it will be admitted by Tiburon and it's affiliates how crucial it is for representing football and how trash the previous editions that didn't have it were. Even worse, those that dare call out M13 as a failure of a football sim due to player movement, among other things, before it's fashionable to do so when a new edition has addressed it, are labeled EA/Madden hatemongers, perfectionist, other company fanboys, etc. SMH

On topic, these fixes could provide a more distinct differential between each players performance on the field and therefore various team dynamics. So a team with strong pass rush personnel should be able to have success with a less skilled secondary versus a team with weaker pass rush personnel needing to have a better secondary and/or better blitz schemes to compensate.

I can consider Madden 13 not a failure because it's 2013 now not 2012, and Madden 13 was year one of the supposed 3 year plan. Player movement being addressed has to be taken care of in year one or two and EA still has a chance to prove they can do that as of now. Had they addressed player movement and the ol/dl last year and not added the Infinity Engine, improved pass angles, and CCM last year, but then added them in Madden 25, we would be in the same place either way. Infinity Engine, Player Movement, Drastically improved AI, OL/DL Interaction, and CCM are the five building blocks to Madden being the best football game ever made. IF we get them this year then Madden will be where it should be after two years of development with Cam Weber in charge and the new dev members, all along.

So then in year 3 we can look at getting wr/db interactions, world class presentation and commentary, half time, weekly wrap up shows, all the bells and whistles to really take it to the top of sports gaming.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I can consider Madden 13 not a failure because it's 2013 now not 2012, and Madden 13 was year one of the supposed 3 year plan. Player movement being addressed has to be taken care of in year one or two and EA still has a chance to prove they can do that as of now. Had they addressed player movement and the ol/dl last year and not added the Infinity Engine, improved pass angles, and CCM last year, but then added them in Madden 25, we would be in the same place either way. Infinity Engine, Player Movement, Drastically improved AI, OL/DL Interaction, and CCM are the five building blocks to Madden being the best football game ever made. IF we get them this year then Madden will be where it should be after two years of development with Cam Weber in charge and the new dev members, all along.

So then in year 3 we can look at getting wr/db interactions, world class presentation and commentary, half time, weekly wrap up shows, all the bells and whistles to really take it to the top of sports gaming.

So according to this logic you can at least admit that M13 is incomplete, right? Which still makes it confusing why anyone would continually pretend or claim that an incomplete football game is a good game and have some even place various derogatory labels on others that continually disagree.

[MrJCOreo]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

To me, that's why the AI has been below standard in this game for SO long. Again, not just playcalling AI. Strategic AI. Individual player AI. Adaptive AI. All of it has seemingly been neglected b/c so much concentration has been placed on making the game "fair" for H2H games.

You bring up a fantastic point and I have been thinking on this more and more for the past few days. I'm trying to think back on all of the "band-aids" that were put onto gameplay mechanics to level the competitive playing field for this gen. The ones I can think off the top of my head are the lack of stamina for scrambling QBs due to inadequate QB Spy AI and bad outside contain. I'm fairly sure this may have also led to some issues we have with the O-Line as well but who can say for certain? Can anyone else think of some of these issues that the Madden team is facing that "Fixing O/D Line" will entail? Also, if they need to remove a bunch of these band-aids do you think it'll just be faster for them to just scrap everything and start from scratch? Would they do this? This line of thought is leading me down a road of pessimism just like Big FN Deal said before.

[Still2REal]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I said this in another thread on OS a couple of months ago: Madden is not as good a game as few say it is, and it's not as bad as many say it is either. It's somewhere in the middle, but the game can't get over the hump because the largest pieces of the foundation have not been addressed.

So my thoughts are that if player movement and OL/DL play are overhauled, all of a sudden the pieces of the Madden puzzle start to fit together. For example, people generally liked the enhancements to the passing game including the new catching system; those features would become instantly better if player movement is respected going forward. To add to that, how much better will the passing game feel when you actually have to step up in the pocket? Then, it would actually matter who your interior OL are.

Those are just two quick examples of the impact of an overhaul to both areas in Madden. How much does physics improve with player movement, momentum, and locomotion taking precedence?

My point is if they opt to address both areas in a high quality way come M25, I think we'll see that Madden wasn't as far away from the promise land as many thought. But it's hard for some to appreciate the enhancements year-to-year because the game has largely looked the same and I get that. Changes to player movement and OL/DL would finally have this game looking different.

That said, this game is going to need resources poured into AI as well. Playcalling is just a slice.



I'm going to take my offline bias out of the equation...

...but I have to say Tiburon is going to be chasing their tail [and they have been] by trying to craft this game to curb some of the un-sim tactics that gamers employ. If they stop this, then what? Gamers will come up with something else -- you can bank on that.

To me, that's why the AI has been below standard in this game for SO long. Again, not just playcalling AI. Strategic AI. Individual player AI. Adaptive AI. All of it has seemingly been neglected b/c so much concentration has been placed on making the game "fair" for H2H games.

I'm not AT ALL trying to create a divide between offline & online gamers. At all! I just think that the emphasis on preventing this and stopping that is futile. Create this game in a sim fashion and have the AI that supports that. A byproduct of a focus on AI will create a better competitive environment for all that play H2H exclusively. This seems to be the model that the developers for NBA2K employ.

One of the realest if not the realest game changer/community day volunteer posting for any game on this site. You may not like it, but you must respect this man. Believe that

[RGiles36]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

One of the realest if not the realest game changer/community day volunteer posting for any game on this site. You may not like it, but you must respect this man. Believe that

You're far too kind man, but thanks .

[jpdavis82]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

So according to this logic you can at least admit that M13 is incomplete, right? Which still makes it confusing why anyone would continually pretend or claim that an incomplete football game is a good game and have some even place various derogatory labels on others that continually disagree.

Of course it's incomplete, but I didn't expect it to be a complete game, I just expect the pieces that have been missing to be in place. That's why I said IF they do fix player movement and ol/dl interactions then everything will be on schedule, if not, then they deserve the criticism that comes their way after Madden 25 is released.

[bucky60]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

You're far too kind man, but thanks .

I think he's right. There are a couple other GC'ers I'll also be watching and getting to know.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

Of course it's incomplete, but I didn't expect it to be a complete game, I just expect the pieces that have been missing to be in place. That's why I said IF they do fix player movement and ol/dl interactions then everything will be on schedule, if not, then they deserve the criticism that comes their way after Madden 25 is released.

I appreciate your honesty in the bold JP and just wish others that seem to share that sentiment would keep it this real. The only thing I take exception with is "then they deserve the criticism that comes their way" because they deserve criticism now and every year this console gen for releasing incomplete football games, even M13.

I don't begrudge you for being ok with and not expecting a complete football game from Tubiron yet but other people do and there is nothing hateful or unreasonable about it, is what I am saying. Some gamers have played complete football games in the past and are currently playing other complete sports sims, so they refuse to just accept or quietly "suffer" through the incomplete football games Tiburon is and has been exclusively offering.

[jpdavis82]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I appreciate your honesty in the bold JP and just wish others that seem to share that sentiment would keep it this real. The only thing I take exception with is "then they deserve the criticism that comes their way" because they deserve criticism now and every year this console gen for releasing incomplete football games, even M13.

I don't begrudge you for being ok with and not expecting a complete football game from Tubiron yet but other people do and there is nothing hateful or unreasonable about it, is what I am saying. Some gamers have played complete football games in the past and are currently playing other complete sports sims, so they refuse to just accept or quietly "suffer" through the incomplete football games Tiburon is and has been exclusively offering.

In fairness, I never thought NBA 2k was complete until 2k11, FIFA until FIFA 13, NHL until NHL 13, NCAA still isn't, MLB the Show until MLB12, Tiger Woods until this year, based on the demo anyway. So yeah I guess it just depends on what your definition of a complete game is. To me a complete game is one that I can enjoy playing enough to buy and one that is at or near it's full potential as a sports game simulation that for the most part, accurately replicates its sport. With that being said, I've played Madden 13 more than any sports game this generation, but that's mainly because I enjoy NFL football so much that it's hard not to play an NFL game. Madden 05 was the sports game I played more than any ever made.

[huskerwr38]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

Big F'n, a SUCCESSFUL re-write to both player movement and OL/DL would mean everything to this series. First off, no game can have good gameplay if the fundamental way the players move is wrong. Maddens locomotion has gone from bad M06-M10, to worse M11-M13. The amazing thing is, EA has the best locomotion of any sports game available with FIFA. Why cant they take that player movement model and add it to Madden? Also, the EA NHL game just did a great job adding momentum and acceleration/de-celeration into their series. Madden needs to combine these two models and completely overhaul player movement. They also need to fix the sprint button, as well as upgrade all ball carrier moves. (This needs to include QB pocket movement as well.

Now, where locomotion is the #1 fundamental issue of any game, OL//DL is where the game of football is built from. This area of the game has been neglected by EA for far to long. They need to add HUNDREDS of new animations for both DL and OL. They need to completely re-write DL moves and make it functional and fun. They need to allow for PUSH from both O-Lineman and D-Lineman. They have to go away from players locking together and having a win animation occur from one or the other, their needs to be PUSH. (Ratings need to dictate this)

Lastly, please make the DE's or blitzing OLB's get up the field on passing plays. APF did a phenomenal job with this and it just cannot be that hard to implement...

My .02

It's funny you say that, because they did it!

We collaborated closely with the FIFA team and are combining the best parts of their locomotion system (called RailTracks) with a brand new tech we created specifically for Madden NFL 11.

Source: http://www.pastapadre.com/2010/04/07...-on-locomotion

I think this really highlights the incompetence of the Madden devs compared to other dev teams.

[huskerwr38]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

Also, I wanted to add to the conversation about the long animations that give a more realistic look vs. shorter animations that give more control. Ian Cummings has asked in this forum which would we prefer....long animations or short animations for the reasons mentioned above. And I recall most people wanted the latter, more control with shorter animations. Which to me was a horrible route.

Also, I want to add one more thing. Madden has implemented all new and different tackling engines, different locomotion engines, etc. but they keep changing them up year after year because they can't get it right. So if even they do implement new locomotion and if history is any indication....they won't get it right.

[speedtrucker]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

just because you come out and say this is year 1 of a 3 year plan doesn't excuse massive problems.

the new physics engine is nice 50-60% of hte time, then you get trainwrecks or a hit where momentum shoulda taken the ballcarrier 1 way but instead he bounces in a completely "odd" direction.

the OL/DL interaction to me has always been a problem because you can exploit it too easily with defensive shifts. if I'm playing a user and I'm on Offense, there is very little I can do when he is shifting his DL back and forth or wide/tight because they do not lose footing and can instantly put pressure on the OL. where in reality a shifting Dlineman would not be able to apply instant engagement or instantly be shooting the gap because the Guard couldn't figure out where he was going. the same thing could be said about DE speed rush users that like to blitz WILL and speed rush the SAM and DE, a Tackle could try to take them up field past the QB leaving a gaping hole but in Madden the Tackle will pivot and try to meet him somewhere near the QB... also it is frustrating to see a Center with no one to block stand there until the Guard has completed his win/lose animation, so if the DT wins the engagement now the Center has to attempt to pick up the block. in reality, logic would tell the Center to chip the DT and continue scanning.

the engine was introduced for tackling but would make so much more sense in the trenches, especially since the silliest moments I see is when attempting to run between the tackles... too often the OL/DL interaction is locked animations yet my RB gets stuck in the physics engine contact where he can't direct himself off of the OL's butt and the DL player slides right into a full-power "Big Hit" animation despite the fact that all 3 players were barely moving in any direction. the locked animation warps into a tackle physics engine animation but momentum is all out of wack. the OL/DL interaction needs momentum, logic and better animation-chaining before I consider any madden a success.

and I agree with what Big fnDeal points out, I don't consider any of the current Gen Maddens to be a success... to me it's like being back in college with a C average, each sememster I make 2 As, 1 B and a C but that doesn't make my average an A- now... it may move up to a C+/B- but that just doesn't excuse glaring issues. I bought '06,'08(used),'10 and '13 but I won't be buying again until the entire Offense/Defense play is addressed in a proper manner. stop adding new wild ideas and get the core right, this doesn't need to be a "3 year plan" because you have great ideas you want to install, fix the issues in a year and then the next 2 years add your crazy ideas about how to make the game playable in under 10 minutes with Facebook and Tom Landry at your side.

[Smoke6]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

Also, I wanted to add to the conversation about the long animations that give a more realistic look vs. shorter animations that give more control. Ian Cummings has asked in this forum which would we prefer....long animations or short animations for the reasons mentioned above. And I recall most people wanted the latter, more control with shorter animations. Which to me was a horrible route.

Also, I want to add one more thing. Madden has implemented all new and different tackling engines, different locomotion engines, etc. but they keep changing them up year after year because they can't get it right. So if even they do implement new locomotion and if history is any indication....they won't get it right.

I like this post, it gets the creative juices flowing, and it also has me thinking that there might be something to BB's sequel missing this past season

Maybe???

I hope so, I feel its the only route they would have really.

[SageInfinite]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

If we can pull off moves like this on simple runs in Madden, I'll be happy.