Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

[balcobomber25]

I'll gladly agree to disagree at this point, no use going back and forth.

They already have a decades worth of establishing a business relationship and most businesses stick with their customers.

It's my belief that EA and the NFL will negotiate until a deal get's done.

I'd love to be proven wrong and will be the first to admit it.

Is that why after decades of Reebok being the official supplier of uniforms, they switched to Nike who was a higher bidder? Past NFL commissioners would usually stick with what was familiar, Roger operated on a money first, money second, friendship last model.

[balcobomber25]

The greatest innovation comes from creators with vision. I, again, point to OOTP competing in a space with...um...what's another current text baseball sim that has a significant following?

Competition gives consumers choices, but it's not always a choice between a bunch of greatly increasing quality at decreasing prices. Sometimes, it's a choice between the original and clones 1 to 10 with "innovations" that try to make themselves look better, but are still basically clones of *insert popular game from popular genre here* <insert popular="" game="" in="" genre="" here="">- all at the same price.

Am I saying competition would do nothing? No. But it seems like it's said as if it's this magical thing that always makes things better and cheaper.

You still need people with vision and talent. And that's just the product side. There's a lot of consumer behavior to deal with as well. Brand loyalty, "it's cheaper so it must suck", etc.</insert>

Of course you need people with vision and talent, but those people dont control the purse strings and therefore don't make the business decisions. You think the guys at Tiburon are actually proud of some of the past Madden games? The higher ups at EA knew people were going to buy their games regardless of what was or wasn't in it, for the simple fact that people had no other choice. That is why from Madden 07-12 it was basically a roster update with a fresh coat of paint and one or two new gimmick game modes. It's no coincidence that in the year the license is set to expire EA finally lets its developers revolutionize the game. If there was no exclusive license we would have CCM mode four years ago.

[NYJets]

Re: Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

I disagree. There has been an outcry by a ton of gamers about the exclusive agreement, its just that its been censored and suppressed. If you complained about the agreement here, then you were infracted or banned. If you complained about it on any numerous fansites such as maddennation, maddenmania, traditionsports etc...you were infracted or banned. If you mentioned it on the official EA forums, then it was deleted as soon as it was noticed etc.

Pretty much the only places you can go and talk about it where it wont be censored is on websites that really have nothing to do with sportsgaming, such as Anandtech, Gamefaqs, and any other numerous sites that dont focus on sports gaming.

It is in the best interests of the main video game sports websites to keep EA in its good graces for access to devs and the perks that come along with it.

LOL, nobody gets censored here. There was tons of outraged when the deal happened. There's not as much anymore because it's been like 8 years and some people have moved on with their lives.

[KBLover]

Re: Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

You think the guys at Tiburon are actually proud of some of the past Madden games?

I don't think they have the vision or talent to produce what we're asking for.

Either that, or they are making they game they want to make.

Competition doesn't necessarily change either of those.

[SageInfinite]

Re: Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

I don't think they have the vision or talent to produce what we're asking for.

Either that, or they are making they game they want to make.

Competition doesn't necessarily change either of those.

Exactly how I feel. It's more than evident with how the game is made. I mean just look at what they show at halftime, lol. Pathetic. The way the game looks in motion, they can't honestly think it resembles the NFL.

[KBLover]

Re: Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

But the lack of competition is a guarantee of lack of innovation (at least, lack of innovation at the level it could be had there been competing products).

Not really.

What competition is driving OOTP to continually do better? How many text baseball sims are out there?

What competition is there for strategic war games? Not exactly the biggest thriving money-maker out there, yet there's some innovative ideas coming from developers in the genre. Koei's been making them for 26 years, always trying something new, and what's the competition in the space?

Heck, how many RTS's are out there anymore? You don't even see clones that much now. Did that stop SC2 from getting better with its expansion? Fantasy 4x games? Not that many. (Some might say none since Age of Wonders or, going way back, Master of Magic). Didn't stop Elemental from improving.

It's all about the vision of the creators and their willingness to listen to the players and see them as allies in the process, not a force to be broken and suppressed into "playing the game our way." Which is a mentality the seems to exist too much these days in gaming in general.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

I don't think they have the vision or talent to produce what we're asking for.

Either that, or they are making they game they want to make.

Competition doesn't necessarily change either of those.

I go with this one, lol. Like I have stated before, something like CCM is obviously not a lack of vision or talent issue because its' architect, Josh Looman, also created HC09. Somebody or bodies have been encouraging or demanding that everyone at Tiburon look at the NFL for Madden, through some odd "fun" perspective, as if NFL football needs to be changed to be fun and marketable. It's surprising to me how many people seem to be drinking the kool-aid for adapting NFL football in Madden to market it to the masses, instead of adapting the marketing to get the masses interested in real NFL football in Madden. Not only does EA Tiburon not emulate NFL football in Madden, they don't even emulate the NFL's marketing strategy for the NFL.

I am no business mogul but it seems like common sense if I pay hundreds of millions of dollars for an established brand worth billions, like the NFL, the best ROI is to copy whatever they have done to be so successful, whenever possible. For all the smart business people I presume EA has making decisions for Madden, it boggles my mind that anyone would be surprised that securing an expensive NFL exclusive but proceeding to make Madden in its' own unique brand of football, didn't pan out as projected. The NFL has been thriving these last 8 years, even with a lockout, yet Madden hasn't enjoyed a modicum of that over the same period. It doesn't take an econ major to understand that Madden obviously wasn't structured close enough to the NFL during this time.

[SageInfinite]

Re: Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

I go with this one, lol. Like I have stated before, something like CCM is obviously not a lack of vision or talent issue because its' architect, Josh Looman, also created HC09. Somebody or bodies have been encouraging or demanding that everyone at Tiburon look at the NFL for Madden, through some odd "fun" perspective, as if NFL football needs to be changed to be fun and marketable. It's surprising to me how many people seem to be drinking the kool-aid for adapting NFL football in Madden to market it to the masses, instead of adapting the marketing to get the masses interested in real NFL football in Madden. Not only does EA Tiburon not emulate NFL football in Madden, they don't even emulate the NFL's marketing strategy for the NFL.

I am no business mogul but it seems like common sense if I pay hundreds of millions of dollars for an established brand worth billions, like the NFL, the best ROI is to copy whatever they have done to be so successful, whenever possible. For all the smart business people I presume EA has making decisions for Madden, it boggles my mind that anyone would be surprised that securing an expensive NFL exclusive but proceeding to make Madden in its' own unique brand of football, didn't pan out as projected. The NFL has been thriving these last 8 years, even with a lockout, yet Madden hasn't enjoyed a modicum of that over the same period. It doesn't take an econ major to understand that Madden obviously wasn't structured close enough to the NFL during this time.

I think the NFL has a clear and direct vision for how it wants to be perceived and how to make as much money as possible with that vision. EA/Tiburon on the other hand has been lost this whole gen since acquiring the license. They wanted to be arcade, fast and fun, and pretty at the beginning, so I think that's how they built the game. I mean just look at Madden 09, lol, which I think was the game they had all wanted to make from the beginning of the generation.

Something in the culture changed(probably the success of more realistic games and madden being the butt of alot of people's jokes, lol) and they wanted to be more sim, but with what they had built, it's been hard to reverse. I hope now they have the vision and leadership they need, but I personally still don't think they have what it takes to make the game that I personally want. I just see too many corners cut with gameplay, animations, and presentation(off the field I think EA has always "gotten" it but bugs and time constraints hurt them). Things that looked good one year are absent or changed the next. I think the biggest problem is we don't get an explanation as to why these things change or why things work the way they do, why these decisions were made. I just hope with Madden 25 and this next generation we see their true potential. If it isn't bright, all of us who haven't enjoyed Madden might as well retire from video game football for good.

[balcobomber25]

I think the NFL has a clear and direct vision for how it wants to be perceived and how to make as much money as possible with that vision. EA/Tiburon on the other hand has been lost this whole gen since acquiring the license. They wanted to be arcade, fast and fun, and pretty at the beginning, so I think that's how they built the game. I mean just look at Madden 09, lol, which I think was the game they had all wanted to make from the beginning of the generation.

Something in the culture changed(probably the success of more realistic games and madden being the butt of alot of people's jokes, lol) and they wanted to be more sim, but with what they had built, it's been hard to reverse. I hope now they have the vision and leadership they need, but I personally still don't think they have what it takes to make the game that I personally want. I just see too many corners cut with gameplay, animations, and presentation(off the field I think EA has always "gotten" it but bugs and time constraints hurt them). Things that looked good one year are absent or changed the next. I think the biggest problem is we don't get an explanation as to why these things change or why things work the way they do, why these decisions were made. I just hope with Madden 25 and this next generation we see their true potential. If it isn't bright, all of us who haven't enjoyed Madden might as well retire from video game football for good.

I think what's often lost especially on forums such as this one is what EA's real target audience is. It is not the hardcore sim focused audience that is represented here, we are less than 1% of the sports gaming audience. EA's target market is the other 99%, the people who will stand in line at midnight to get the new roster updates, the people who have no clue what slider sets are or do, the people who think scoring 72 points in a game is "fun" and "realistic", the people who think fake twitter feeds are the greatest thing to ever happen to a video game. As long as the "casual" gamer keeps buying the game in record numbers we will never see major changes (unless their is competition). Tiburon and Josh Looman have very little control over what does and doesn't get put into the game. Half of it is controlled by Big EA (who cares more about maximizing profits than creating a quality product) and the other half is controlled by the NFL. Everything that goes into the game has to be approved by the NFL first.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

I think what's often lost especially on forums such as this one is what EA's real target audience is. It is not the hardcore sim focused audience that is represented here, we are less than 1% of the sports gaming audience. EA's target market is the other 99%, the people who will stand in line at midnight to get the new roster updates, the people who have no clue what slider sets are or do, the people who think scoring 72 points in a game is "fun" and "realistic", the people who think fake twitter feeds are the greatest thing to ever happen to a video game. As long as the "casual" gamer keeps buying the game in record numbers we will never see major changes (unless their is competition). Tiburon and Josh Looman have very little control over what does and doesn't get put into the game. Half of it is controlled by Big EA (who cares more about maximizing profits than creating a quality product) and the other half is controlled by the NFL. Everything that goes into the game has to be approved by the NFL first.

I don't think that's lost on people, it's that people, like myself, question the business sense in paying a premium for an exclusive NFL license and then catering the gameplay to the casual masses, instead making it NFL authentic. The premise of what seems to have been done by EA concerning next-gen Madden, is absurd and obviously didn't work out as intended. It seems they felt the NFL license was merely an endorsement for the Madden brand of football, instead of an opportunity to exclusively emulate the NFL brand of football in an EA football game. If Madden football was such a lucrative brand on its' own, there would have been no need for an exclusive in the first place. It's not like the Madden brand was that huge prior to getting the licensing of the NFL and NFLPA, it was those licenses that made the Madden brand so attractive to casuals.

It seems EA really overestimated the value of the Madden brand of football and they seemed to pretty much use the exclusive NFL license, like they do the ESPN one, merely to carry Madden's water, instead having Madden emulate those brands in-game. That's why that other game from 2004 is still heralded to this day because they had sense enough to just copy what was already successful for the NFL and it's media partners, same thing for HC09, NBA2k and The Show with their respective sports. Not next-gen Madden and Tiburon though, "the NFL's 33rd franchise", King Kong ain't got ish on them, lol.

[balcobomber25]

I don't think that's lost on people, it's that people, like myself, question the business sense in paying a premium for an exclusive NFL license and then catering the gameplay to the casual masses, instead making it NFL authentic. The premise of what seems to have been done by EA concerning next-gen Madden, is absurd and obviously didn't work out as intended. It seems they felt the NFL license was merely an endorsement for the Madden brand of football, instead of an opportunity to exclusively emulate the NFL brand of football in an EA football game. If Madden football was such a lucrative brand on its' own, there would have been no need for an exclusive in the first place. It's not like the Madden brand was that huge prior to getting the licensing of the NFL and NFLPA, it was those licenses that made the Madden brand so attractive to casuals.

It seems EA really overestimated the value of the Madden brand of football and they seemed to pretty much use the exclusive NFL license, like they do the ESPN one, merely to carry Madden's water, instead having Madden emulate those brands in-game. That's why that other game from 2004 is still heralded to this day because they had sense enough to just copy what was already successful for the NFL and it's media partners, same thing for HC09, NBA2k and The Show with their respective sports. Not next-gen Madden and Tiburon though, "the NFL's 33rd franchise", King Kong ain't got ish on them, lol.

Again your questioning the business since based off of a consumer not as a business. Every business in the world caters to the masses, because they pay the bills. What didn't work out for next gen Madden? Its one of the best selling series of all time. From a business standpoint its like a license to print money, on the same level as Call of Duty. The Madden brand wasn't huge before the exclusive deal?? Your either a diehard 2k fanboy or your about 12 years old if you really believe that line.

[KBLover]

Re: Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

I go with this one, lol. Like I have stated before, something like CCM is obviously not a lack of vision or talent issue because its' architect, Josh Looman, also created HC09.

Which is why I don't get how it came out like it did.

He created HC09, probably the EA game I like the most. And then produced M13's CCM that neither gave coaching love, didn't do what HC 09 did and didn't even keep the M12 features, and didn't improve team building/development, and didn't even make the schemes any more meaningful than in HC 09, if not less so, and what CCM did do didn't go far enough or wasn't fleshed out enough. Even if you like the XP system, it doesn't have enough to it to make it even plausibly logical (picks help you tackle, etc).

If this is the game he wants to make, then, imo, his vision/talent has changed, given the finished products attached to him - which still puts it back in that category (meaning it's still a vision issue). Either of him or others on his team/staff.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

Again your questioning the business since based off of a consumer not as a business. Every business in the world caters to the masses, because they pay the bills. What didn't work out for next gen Madden? Its one of the best selling series of all time. From a business standpoint its like a license to print money, on the same level as Call of Duty. The Madden brand wasn't huge before the exclusive deal?? Your either a diehard 2k fanboy or your about 12 years old if you really believe that line.

It's unfortunate you misunderstood what I was trying to state, I wasn't referring to the exclusive, I was referring to the initial NFL license acquired in 1993 for Madden 94. My point was it's the NFL brand that was and is behind Madden's popularity with the masses and hardcore a like, yet EA Tiburon seems to have forgotten that fact this entire gen.

[ghettogeeksta]

Re: Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

I think the NFL has a clear and direct vision for how it wants to be perceived and how to make as much money as possible with that vision. EA/Tiburon on the other hand has been lost this whole gen since acquiring the license. They wanted to be arcade, fast and fun, and pretty at the beginning, so I think that's how they built the game. I mean just look at Madden 09, lol, which I think was the game they had all wanted to make from the beginning of the generation.

Something in the culture changed(probably the success of more realistic games and madden being the butt of alot of people's jokes, lol) and they wanted to be more sim, but with what they had built, it's been hard to reverse. I hope now they have the vision and leadership they need, but I personally still don't think they have what it takes to make the game that I personally want. I just see too many corners cut with gameplay, animations, and presentation(off the field I think EA has always "gotten" it but bugs and time constraints hurt them). Things that looked good one year are absent or changed the next. I think the biggest problem is we don't get an explanation as to why these things change or why things work the way they do, why these decisions were made. I just hope with Madden 25 and this next generation we see their true potential. If it isn't bright, all of us who haven't enjoyed Madden might as well retire from video game football for good.

This is what I thought in this Interview with MLB The Show 13 Producer Ramone Russel. Sounded like he took a shot at Madden, lol. Just listen to the fist 42 seconds.


<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/v0H7iyIP6hA" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

[Rocky]

Re: Don't Expect a Change in the NFL License Status Quo

I think 2K really has to put everything they have into getting the NFL license. I dont think its realistic for them to steal exclusivity away from EA but they have to pony up a price to make the NFL consider opening the license up to them.

I love the NBA series, but they really need to after football gaming again. If that means taking resources from the NBA game, then so be it. There are stlll many developers at VC that worked on APF and has now taken the NBA2K to the top. I would put them back on football...after all, NFL2K really put 2Ksports on the map.