So what's the point of defense in this game?

[LBzrule]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

You can only play defense in Madden if your opponent is looking to use their entire playbook and not resort to certain tactics. When I play guys who have great play variety I get the good 27-24 game or, like today, a great 23-13 game. Against the guy today, neither of us leaned on the same ol drag, out and comeback passing attack. We still got to play football and it felt like football. The problem with Madden outside of those situations is that the ol' "drag, out and comeback" passing attack is money since defenders never really catch on. Then you have the ol' PA TE post route which is pretty much money vs. man.

Playing defense against guys who lean on video game tactics is hard - when you get a good game with someone who is willing to use the whole playbook the game gets fun.

Heck it doesn't even have to be tactics. Just increase certain guy in certain areas and you have a major problem and then in CC the salary cap let's people still put together super teams. Let's just take an example. Let's say someone has the Lions they get enough XP they increase Megatron's speed to 99. You can forget it. Then the salary system doesn't get the star players demanding enough so the person with the Lions can have Stafford, Megatron, then go out and trade with someone else in the league and be able to afford Victor Cruz or Mike Wallace and still put together a standout LB unit with some fast hard hitting Safeties. This is just too much. The team basically has no weaknesses.

Also from my experience, the best defenses have nothing to do with how good or bad a player is overall, but having them rated high overall with speed only intensifies what I'm about to say. I've seen a lot of people just purchase, Big Hitter, and up a players hit power through the roof. What this does is makes sure that you get at least two or three fumbles a game, which means more possessions for your team. You can get beat by someone who is actually not that good in this game because of that.

What I find with Madden which is what I've always found with it, the game lives on extremes.

[BTownSlinger]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

It's tough to build a solid defense in today's NFL.

I'm a DB coach and I have my defensive theories and schemes. My defense that I run is rock solid with plenty of sacks & turnovers to go around.

It's football, not a plug and play system. Sure there are flaws in the gameplay but what I have witnessed is most players don't understand actual football, and with the camera view of Madden it creates the illusion that DB's and WR's are closer than they are. You do know, even with slight separation that your DB can't run full speed and jump full vertical to make a play. No human can. Most Madden players expect unhumanly things from their players.

It's just like that guy in the draft class thread that said he drafts players purely off of OVR. I'm sure most of you do the same in this thread; not drafting players that actually fit your scheme or defense you like to play (and your defense or idea of defense may be terrible to begin with), another reason why you get tore up on defense then come cry on OS.

So you drafted an 83 OVR DB, that's great. *claps*

He's got 70 zone rating and 38 man when you primarily run man-to-man. Then you cry when he gets toasted.

Again, there are flaws in the gameplay but most of the problems are user mistakes.

[Blue Ninja]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

It's tough to build a solid defense in today's NFL.

I'm a DB coach and I have my defensive theories and schemes. My defense that I run is rock solid with plenty of sacks & turnovers to go around.

It's football, not a plug and play system. Sure there are flaws in the gameplay but what I have witnessed is most players don't understand actual football, and with the camera view of Madden it creates the illusion that DB's and WR's are closer than they are. You do know, even with slight separation that your DB can't run full speed and jump full vertical to make a play. No human can. Most Madden players expect unhumanly things from their players.

It's just like that guy in the draft class thread that said he drafts players purely off of OVR. I'm sure most of you do the same in this thread; not drafting players that actually fit your scheme or defense you like to play (and your defense or idea of defense may be terrible to begin with), another reason why you get tore up on defense then come cry on OS.

So you drafted an 83 OVR DB, that's great. *claps*

He's got 70 zone rating and 38 man when you primarily run man-to-man. Then you cry when he gets toasted.

Again, there are flaws in the gameplay but most of the problems are user mistakes.

Yep, some guys need to accept the fact that not everyone is Revis or Megatron just because they have similar speed.

Although I do think defenders in zone covering air is a bit too extreme in madden. Especially with defenders in deep zone. They seem to sit in their "designated zone" no matter how the offensive play develops.

[LBzrule]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

Yep, some guys need to accept the fact that not everyone is Revis or Megatron just because they have similar speed.

Although I do think defenders in zone covering air is a bit too extreme in madden. Especially with defenders in deep zone. They seem to sit in their "designated zone" no matter how the offensive play develops.

I think what you guys are failing to realize though is that people can MAKE them Megatron. I have Torrey Smith almost at that level and with his 97 accel all I would need to do is increase his speed by one and he would be a major problem in this game. I have his catching and catch in traffic at 91. Route running at 90. I don't even worry about release because the way the game is programmed the WR is most likely not gonna get pressed unless the person is running 2 man under. And someone will always beat the press. With the way he is, I get 1000 yards with him easy. I drafted two rookie WR's for the current season, one of them is over 1000 yards and the other is close to 900. Pitta over 600. And that is with me having three games simmed against the computer. We have people in our league who maxed out players like Mike Wallace Speed wise and gave him certain traits and he's broken records every season even the records he set the last season. It's just stupid to see Mike Wallace having multiple games where he has over 300 receiving yards and it's all because the game just does dumb stuff when players have certain attributes. I always beat Steelers for the most part.

I know you reading Jack LOL, but here is the deal. I don't even try to stop Wallace because it's a waste of time. The first time we played and Wallace caught a pass between three defenders, I was trailing directly underneath and Ed Reed was over the top and Pollard was crashing in from the right and they let Wallace catch the pass in between all of us and then made all three of us crash into each other and boom Wallace is gone. And Wallace does not even have to have a step on anyone in this game. If he catches it at even you can forget it.

[bucky60]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

What I find with Madden which is what I've always found with it, the game lives on extremes.

The extremes is what makes madden boring. The extremes happen so often, they aren't extreme and become hohum. Madden's been like this for a God awful long time.

[youALREADYknow]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

I haven't had a problem stopping any single player with the exception of certain 99 SPD halfbacks with great blocking. Any WR/TE can be stopped or at least contained as long as you are willing to sacrifice something else.

It's give/take. There isn't a defense that has ever existed in the NFL that has been able to defend everything all at once on any given play. I keep seeing people post that "video game tactics" reign supreme, but I'd disagree and say that the toughest offenses to stop from my experience have been the balanced ones that executed an actual football strategy. Sure everyone has their money plays that work in go-to situations, but anyone using the same 3-5 plays over and over should get contained by any smart user with good defensive personnel.

The strategy element of reading your opponent is a REQUIREMENT to playing successful defense in this game. Know your opponent, learn their tendencies, scheme to stop these tendencies, and set up the personnel matchups that favor the defender. You'll never win more plays than the offense against a great offense, but you only need to win a handful of plays on defense (3rd/4th downs, red zone, turnovers) to shift the balance of a game. Mediocre offenses should never score 30+ on you unless you're giving points away via turnovers.

Most of the high scoring games I've seen also have a ton of turnovers and defensive scoring plays. That's sloppy football. Losing the field position battle and giving points away without possessions is going to result in a lot of points on the board for the other team.

One other point made earlier in the thread is also very true in my experience: OVR is almost meaningless for a user defense. Individual ratings matched with scheme are the key. Consistency is also very underrated for star defensive players in the secondary. Cold streaks make terrible things happen in Madden.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

I don't want to direct this at anyone, so let me ask this in general. To people that claim they are able to play effective realistic defense in M13, would you mind elaborating?

IMO, if anyone is referring to doing all manner of presnap adjustments, essentially drawing up whole new plays at the LOS, that is fundamentally unrealistic. I don't pretend or profess to be some deep football strategist but even a layman like myself knows, that the things I see being done for a defense to be effective in M13, is unrealistic. Aside from the preplay adjustments, the switch User control with the ability to override some ratings is unrealistic too.

Maybe I am being to technical and I do understand this is a video game but with so many fundamentally unrealistic aspects to playing defense in M13, I just don't get how anyone that is able to be defensively effective, can tout it as being realistically so.

[Hooe]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

The biggest point of frustration for me in Madden right now on the defensive side of the ball is the lack of options. There simply aren't enough on defense.

To throw out some ideas - I want to be able to easily assign who plays nickel back in my five-DB sets. I want to easily be able to set up third down pressure personnel packages, 3rd down coverage linebackers, and other situational substitutions which right now in-game are reserved for the offensive side of the ball unless one fumbles through the clumsy formation substitutions interface. I want to be able to have my shutdown cornerback trail one particular receiver the entire game. I want to be able to choose if my outside cornerbacks play best-on-best - determining their assigned receivers dynamically as they break the huddle depending on how the offense lines up - or stick to the currently-available weakside/strongside assignments. I want to be able to set who on my front plays weakside and strongside at end and linebacker, rather than just left and right. I want to be able to disguise my coverage pre-snap with a variety of different alignments.

I agree with the point that it is possible to play defense on this game if one pays particular attention to the ratings and is familiar with one's opponent. However, I also think that playing defense is harder than it needs to be, because the preparation and presnap options available to users in Madden all favor the offense in their number and utility right now.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

The biggest point of frustration for me in Madden right now on the defensive side of the ball is the lack of options. There simply aren't enough on defense.

To throw out some ideas - I want to be able to easily assign who plays nickel back in my five-DB sets. I want to easily be able to set up third down pressure personnel packages, 3rd down coverage linebackers, and other situational substitutions which right now in-game are reserved for the offensive side of the ball unless one fumbles through the clumsy formation substitutions interface. I want to be able to have my shutdown cornerback trail one particular receiver the entire game. I want to be able to choose if my outside cornerbacks play best-on-best - determining their assigned receivers dynamically as they break the huddle depending on how the offense lines up - or stick to the currently-available weakside/strongside assignments. I want to be able to set who on my front plays weakside and strongside at end and linebacker, rather than just left and right. I want to be able to disguise my coverage pre-snap with a variety of different alignments.

I agree with the point that it is possible to play defense on this game if one pays particular attention to the ratings and is familiar with one's opponent. However, I also think that playing defense is harder than it needs to be, because the preparation and presnap options available to users in Madden all favor the offense in their number and utility right now.

I concur with the bold but probably for a different reason. If I play a NBA basketball game, as long as I am at least vaguely familiar with the team I am using and how they perform in real life, I can be reasonably effective with them. So whether a causal NBA gamer knows that the Miami Heat were one of the top defensive teams last year or not, they don't need to do a bunch of User manipulation for the team to the play that way, the teams tendencies are already preset. However in Madden, if I were to control the SF 49ers, there is little to no realistic based defensive presence about them, aside from fast LBs and hard hitters.

There is this misconception that having NFL teams in Madden programmed to play like their NFL counterparts is tantamount to watching, not playing the game but that is such a bizarre POV. It's that POV that holds Madden back from being as realistic as possible, like other top sports sims because football is a team sport, not 1v1, so the other 10 CPU controlled players on each team, should be programmed to play as close to their real life counterparts as possible.

User edge should come into play with gamers that are able to get the most out of each teams strength and weakness, through pregame preparation, in-game play calling and direct influence of ONE player on the field, each play, not from redesigning the entire team dynamic at the LOS, in real time, like Starcraft, lol.

[Blue Ninja]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

I've seen all the flaws on defense in the game compared to real life football. Pursuit is at times just horrible. Defenders covering air as I mentioned before. They don't spill the ball carrier correctly, everyone is fearless and even little corners will take on big bruising back face to face and try to make a tackle every time instead of trying to just force him to where the pursuit is coming from or hold him up for the second guy to come strip the ball. You can forget about over-under technique and such except for 2 man under. They definitely don't use the sideline defending against the pass. Pass rusher at the line of scrimmage has no burst off the snap. No clue on how to time the blitz. They show the coverage way too early pre-snap. You can completely forget about the gap assignment or all the technique upfront. 0 or 3 technique, they do the same thing. Can't play match up by having certain receivers be shadowed by certain corners and forced to play sides and etc. Those are just what I can think of on top of my head.

But there are many flaws on offense as well. Lack of double team option at the LOS. Lack of option routes, the ones in the game doesn't even work properly. No hot reads. You see a CB's back so you throw the ball, suddenly he reacts and pick the ball off more often than not. Can't throw the ball away by throwing near the intended receiver to avoid intentional grounding which results in picks or sacks. Too many times 2 or 3 blockers completely miss one defender in an open field. Almost everyone on defense can hit hard and knock the ball out too often. Flankers will get pressed just as effectively as split ends despite a little extra cushion between him and the cover defender. Pump fake or double move doesn't work as much as it should even if it is set up well. PA, although it has improved a bit, still doesn't work the way it should. On deep balls, clearly receivers don't know how to catch the ball at the highest point. They don't adjust to deep balls to shield defenders which result in many under thrown balls. Too often defenders are aware of exactly where the ball is without having to see it even when he's beat on deep routes without receivers extending his arms to reach for the ball. Ball carriers getting sucked into arm tackles or get taken down by his own blockers too often. No ability to find soft spot in zone coverage. OLs doesn't know how many drop backs his QB is taking(specially on quick passes. Too many times I see DTs come through free.). And of course the RT glitch(although it's avoidable for the most part by stepping up but still too effective) and such. I'm sure there more.

I agree with offensive side of the ball is favored in the game over all. But it's not as one sided as many people claim in my opinion. You could be pretty effective on defense. Especially with some tweaks to sliders setting and rules.

[baller7345]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

I don't want to direct this at anyone, so let me ask this in general. To people that claim they are able to play effective realistic defense in M13, would you mind elaborating?

IMO, if anyone is referring to doing all manner of presnap adjustments, essentially drawing up whole new plays at the LOS, that is fundamentally unrealistic. I don't pretend or profess to be some deep football strategist but even a layman like myself knows, that the things I see being done for a defense to be effective in M13, is unrealistic. Aside from the preplay adjustments, the switch User control with the ability to override some ratings is unrealistic too.

Maybe I am being to technical and I do understand this is a video game but with so many fundamentally unrealistic aspects to playing defense in M13, I just don't get how anyone that is able to be defensively effective, can tout it as being realistically so.

It doesn't help the EA hasn't given us proper concepts or consistently correct concept on both offense and defense. For instance take Smash, its suppose to have the WR running the 7 route cut after 12 yards but a large amount of the Smash concepts in the game cut the route off 2 yards short. This applies to defense too, from simply drawing the concept up wrong (2-4-5 Cross Fire 3 Seam has the ILB crossing in reverse meaning that the crosser supposed to bring pressure as they have it drawn up is running at 2 offensive linemen (the Center and the Tackle)) to having containment rush angles on zone blitzes executed horribly wrong which in return makes them ineffective a lot of the time.

Also due to EA's fear/overreaction of the nano blitz the psychic line play (which includes automatically slide protecting some stock blitzes unless you change an interior rusher to a contain assignment...???) has forced players to play by EAs rules in order to get real life blitz concepts to work (to get your standard overload to work [3 rushers versus the guard and tackle] you have to make sure the center blocks air or some offensive lineman will zip in to block it regardless of the offensive players offensive line calls).

Finally EA has made a game (its been this way for years now) that forces you to be the brains behind all 11 players on the field. You have to micromanage them and tell them what to do if you want them to play their assignment properly. If you want your defender to cover that out route that has been torching you all game you have to tell him to do exactly that, ratings will only take you so far. If he has the ratings to actually do what you tell him then you will see positive results, if he doesn't then he struggles. The players themselves never adjust because the game has a set of techniques that each type of coverage plays when you call it at the play call screen and if you want a different result Madden leaves it up to the user to get their hands dirty and tell their players to do that. All man coverage is playing the inside shoulder by default if you want them to play the outside shoulder then you have to change their shading. 2 Man Under plays a default trail technique while it can play a squat technique if you back off the coverage, Cover 1 and Cover 0 plays play a default bail technique (to avoid a big play) and if you want something else from you're players you have to tell them to do that. EA has made the game so that you as a user has to be the brains of their players, those players may have individual strengths and weaknesses but they won't take advantage of them unless the user tells them to.

[youALREADYknow]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

The biggest point of frustration for me in Madden right now on the defensive side of the ball is the lack of options. There simply aren't enough on defense.

To throw out some ideas - I want to be able to easily assign who plays nickel back in my five-DB sets. I want to easily be able to set up third down pressure personnel packages, 3rd down coverage linebackers, and other situational substitutions which right now in-game are reserved for the offensive side of the ball unless one fumbles through the clumsy formation substitutions interface. I want to be able to have my shutdown cornerback trail one particular receiver the entire game. I want to be able to choose if my outside cornerbacks play best-on-best - determining their assigned receivers dynamically as they break the huddle depending on how the offense lines up - or stick to the currently-available weakside/strongside assignments. I want to be able to set who on my front plays weakside and strongside at end and linebacker, rather than just left and right. I want to be able to disguise my coverage pre-snap with a variety of different alignments.

I agree with the point that it is possible to play defense on this game if one pays particular attention to the ratings and is familiar with one's opponent. However, I also think that playing defense is harder than it needs to be, because the preparation and presnap options available to users in Madden all favor the offense in their number and utility right now.

+1 to All of the above.

Presnap adjustments are a must in this game, but currently have too much significance because of the lack of other configuration options.

[Inferno2ss]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

It is pretty simple, you either get a turnover or you get scored on. No in between with Madden.

[youALREADYknow]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

It is pretty simple, you either get a turnover or you get scored on. No in between with Madden.

Garbage in, garbage out.

Most players play reckless on both sides of the ball instead of conservative and that's what results in the quoted outcome.

There's also no excuse to leave sliders on defaults in Online CCM since we have those options available.

[BTownSlinger]

Re: So what's the point of defense in this game?

Garbage in, garbage out.

Most players play reckless on both sides of the ball instead of conservative and that's what results in the quoted outcome.

There's also no excuse to leave sliders on defaults in Online CCM since we have those options available.

This.

When was the last time you played someone who realized it's tough to put up points so they took care of the ball and worked for field goal range at times?

If you play to score 6 on every play then yes, you'll either get lucky and score or turn the ball over. Play for first downs, feel the defense out, take a shot down field when it feels right. If you keep getting first downs eventually you'll find yourself in the redzone. You'll also be controlling the clock better than your Hail Mary opponent.