The problems with defense

[dghustla]

Re: The problems with defense

I enjoy sliders but they are not the "end all, be all". As previously mentioned. Sliders cannot account for bad A.I.

Sliders can lower the QBs accuracy but cant change his decision making.
How do sliders stop the CPU from coming out in cover 2 with a 7 point lead with :30 seconds left in the game when I am coming out looking for deep pass?
even with coverage sliders spiked up to 100. the same routes still routinely beat man coverage and zone coverage.

I enjoy this game but there is simply a fundamental flaw in the programming. Now I'm hoping that with the new "increased calculations" on next gen that we will see players being less like robots and more organic. Can I see a CB jump a slant or even jump a sluggo and get beat deep? I would love for QB awareness to determine how QBs act in the pocket in a sense of the QB making 1-2-3-4 reads on the play. I would love to the see the CPU actually going to their strengths. CPU controlled Vikings please run AP 25+ times a game. It doesnt matter if he has 5 carriers for 15 yards. Keep giving him the rock. CPU Cardinals please target Larry Fitz 10-13 times a game. Sliders don't fix those things.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: The problems with defense

Why not just make a separate hardcore mode for players that want a more realistic football experience?

I do not understand why game companies just don't separate modes in order to please everyone.

In fairness to EA that would basically require two different codes for AI programming. The "sim" setting in 2k is really nothing more than a slider set. But for Madden it would need to be different.

[bakan723]

Re: The problems with defense

I can live with some of the coverage problems even though I'd like to see it get tightened up. My biggest problem is the lack of control i have over a defender when I'm controlling him. I can be strafing w/ a safety in coverage and see a TE break his route off towards the middle of the field and I just can't seem to get my player in position to make a play.

Controlling the players has been a hideosity for YEARS in Madden. It seems like the cpu overrides your inputs and 'takes over' control of your player when it wants to.

On offense too...cpu will go up and make catches for you, (no matter what your pressing)

Remember the days when you had to become the receiver and go catch the ball on your own ? (manual catch mode)

[Datninja619]

Re: The problems with defense

I agree with everything the OP posted. It is SOOOOO frustrating playing with madden zones because Cover 2 looks like cover 2, 3 looks like 3 etc (during play). In college I played a zone/man hybrid defense. We would PASS the WRs off, so there wasn't any holes that are normally in zones. QB's and OC's hated playing us because it was hard to read. NCAA 13 did a great job at this. This would eliminate the BS of defenders standing still on the backside zone when all WR are flowing to the right.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: The problems with defense

I agree with everything the OP posted. It is SOOOOO frustrating playing with madden zones because Cover 2 looks like cover 2, 3 looks like 3 etc (during play). In college I played a zone/man hybrid defense. We would PASS the WRs off, so there wasn't any holes that are normally in zones. QB's and OC's hated playing us because it was hard to read. NCAA 13 did a great job at this. This would eliminate the BS of defenders standing still on the backside zone when all WR are flowing to the right.

NCAA has plays like Cover 3 Disguise where it is cover 3 coverage but the defense lines up in a cover 2 look. Sometimes that little bit of deception is enough to throw of my timing.

Certainly that is not enough and more needs to be done on defense but at the very least they could better implement disguising coverages. Bare minimum the AI should not break the huddle with one safety high and the corners off, there could be movement on defense like CBs bailing before the snap

[Datninja619]

Re: The problems with defense

NCAA has plays like Cover 3 Disguise where it is cover 3 coverage but the defense lines up in a cover 2 look. Sometimes that little bit of deception is enough to throw of my timing.

Certainly that is not enough and more needs to be done on defense but at the very least they could better implement disguising coverages. Bare minimum the AI should not break the huddle with one safety high and the corners off, there could be movement on defense like CBs bailing before the snap

Agree once again. I actually use that play and the 4-2-5 defense in NCAA 14 solely because of the DIFFERENT looks. The only time DB's aren't static and roll is when you blitz the corner in madden. I am really hoping this is in next gen with the "Smarter AI"

[Ban_Irl]

Re: The problems with defense

I have noticed that reducing the pass blocking slider leads to more pressure on the QB and lowering accuracy leads to a more realistic "pressure" and so the awareness.. arm strength and accuracy come in to play.

Now I'm an older guy (mid 50's) and so my reaction times and the occasional miss hit of a button (receivers) has lead to me looking "foolish" or "frustrated". I am the Rams and Sam Bradford does play differently then Kellen Clemens after tweaking sliders.


DB AI has always been a sore spot and I've come to grips with it. Sliders to me help make the game playable especially with my limited "skill" set.

[KBLover]

Re: The problems with defense

Great Post OP.

In regard to point 5. and zone coverage. I don't mind spot watching but I think Here is where ratings need to come into play and be a BIG factor.

75> players should be spot watching.
76-90 those players need to be reading and reacting and covering guys in their zones.

90< these are elite coverage guys. They should be recognizing route combinations and running with guys when they realize their is no threat. You gave a great example of some one running 4 verts. elite zone defenders should recognize when their is no underneath threat and continue to stretch with the WRs.

Sounds like a great place for ZCV + PRC weighted "rating" to determine player behavior.

Combine this with the Plays The Ball trait and you have varied defender reactions even within a scheme or playcall.

OP, nice post - I've always hated how gimped the defense is in Madden. Slider mission one for me is always trying to get the defense to play better/smarter without it going to being overdone.

[KBLover]

Re: The problems with defense

Why not use sliders to adjust. Increase the pass rush, lower the accuracy of the QB. etc... Sliders are there for a reason and I'm grateful they do have them.

You want great AI? Get a text game.
Bottom line is it's a game and if you don't enjoy it then don't play.

Because 'adjusting' doesn't put the actual concepts in the game. Like the OP said, making the defense play better then removes other things because the game does not play defense properly.

It's like when I make the LBs play "better" - it still doesn't make them play with gap responsibilities. It just makes them play the way Madden has them play "better". I.E. they still take bad routes to the ball carrier, or start perfectly mirroring the ball carrier, etc.

As far as "get a text game" - what does that have to do with wanting Madden to improve?

Yeah, I think everyone knows Madden is a game. Games can have room to improve. People can also like Madden overall (so they play it) but still want improvements. Things aren't as black and white as you portray them.

[Skopin]

Re: The problems with defense

Okay so we all know that defense is a little under powered in this game, but why? Well here are few things on the defensive side of the ball that are not replicated in Ma**en:

1. In real life defenses read/react/alter coverage based on what the offense does.
Here are a few examples : http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2013/...with-read.html

http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2013/05/a-simple-adjustable-4-2-5-zone-blitz-vs.html

http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2012/02/superbowl-preview-part-ii-new-york.html

This is not in Madden. What we have are static plays.

2. In Madden all QBs have perfect footwork, mechanics, and timing with their WRs. Watch a Patriots or Broncos game this season. At some point I am fairly confident you will hear the commentator praise Brady/Manning's footwork. This is not a meaningless cliche, their superb footwork helps them to shred zone defenses. I will not go into a lengthy discussion as to why, instead see for yourself by watching them and then the lesser QBs. Footwork is part of the reason why they are so skilled at going through progressions. Not that it matters because...

3. All QBs are experts at going through progressions. Ever here the phrase "one read QB?" Not in Madden, they all are like Montana.

4. WR route running matters, but not as much as it should. Short version: Even "bad" route runners run good routes.

5. Zone coverage is limited. Ever hear of Pattern-matching defense? Well apparently the folks over at EA have no clue what it is. Here is a very brief rundown: The zone coverage in game is the basic "spot-watching" coverage. The defender drops back to a predefined spot and watches the QBs eyes. When the QB releases the ball, the defender makes a break on the ball. So all the talk you hear from some posters of how defenders ignore players in their zone is correct. They do do that, but they are suppose to. Breaking on every WR who enters your zone is how you get out of position, and this what disciplined defense references. Here is the problem: As previously mentioned every QB has excellent footwork and and is great at going through his reads. The result is that zone defense kinda sucks because every QB gets the ball out as quickly as the elite real life QBs do and they can read defenses equally as well (even Tebow for crying out loud). Can you ever remember the AI QB missing (i.e. not seeing) a open WR? And spot watching is the only type of zone in the game. Three cheers for EA! Ever call cover three only to see your SS/OLB covering nothing but grass in the flats while the offense runs 4 verts? Sucks doesn't it?

Read: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ics-zone-blitz

That does better job of explaining it than I ever could. Basically against that 4 vert play your 3d coverage became Cover 1 man. But again, defenses in Madden are static and don't adapt to the offense.

6. Familiar with the phrase CBs need a short memory? EA took it to heart because in Madden CBs have no memory at all. You can call Curl Flats 10 straight times and the tenth will work just as good as the first. Coupled with this is the whole atrocious play calling problem. Imagine it is 3rd and 11 for the Baltimore offense. Any football fan knows to protect the sidelines because rumor has it Joe is one of the best at throwing to the sidelines/deep out. What does the AI do? Why they come out in cover 1 with the corners playing off. That is a completion every time (as it should be). But then people scream that DBs can't cover, so what do we do? We adjust sliders to make up for the limited AI but now lining up in trips against a cover 2 and going to the Smash concept doesn't work because we had to sup up the DBs. That is not an acceptable outcome.

There are more problems, but I don't want to write an entire novel. A short story is enough for one night

Remember the vision cone? That's where your progression was. The problem is that people don't actually want realistic. They want to be able to see the whole field at all times, and want their players to also see the whole field at all times. I'm so sick of people complaining that something isn't realistic, but then complain more when they tried to make something realistic. Obviously there are flaws, but some people just like to nitpick.

[purplerat]

Re: The problems with defense

Why not just make a separate hardcore mode for players that want a more realistic football experience?

hardcore does not necessarily mean more realistic. If the game is just made harder because the AI defense knows what play you are running and always calls the right defense and the AI offense is unstoppable because you can't get pressure or ever get a solo tackle, that's not realistic.

I do not understand why game companies just don't separate modes in order to please everyone.

Is this meant to be serious?

[Dice]

Re: The problems with defense

All I want to know is will CPU controlled elite pass rushing RE/ROLB cause pressure in the opponents passing game? It seems like the last couple of iterations of Madden, the elite RE/ROLB that's controlled by the CPU is no factor. If I'm playing against Minnesota, I want to wonder about Jared Allen and not the other defensive end who rated 15 points less.

[KBLover]

Re: The problems with defense

All I want to know is will CPU controlled elite pass rushing RE/ROLB cause pressure in the opponents passing game? It seems like the last couple of iterations of Madden, the elite RE/ROLB that's controlled by the CPU is no factor. If I'm playing against Minnesota, I want to wonder about Jared Allen and not the other defensive end who rated 15 points less.

Yeah, hopefully that's taken care of.

I don't understand why it's there to begin with. Why not make both Ends (or Tackles if the issue is there) play with the "better" AI?

[RemyDaGr8]

Re: The problems with defense

I can live with some of the coverage problems even though I'd like to see it get tightened up. My biggest problem is the lack of control i have over a defender when I'm controlling him. I can be strafing w/ a safety in coverage and see a TE break his route off towards the middle of the field and I just can't seem to get my player in position to make a play.

What I like to do if I'm usering a safety is change his coverage to QB spy (I feel this gives me full control of the player) then remember the zone he's suppose to play and if I see a TE break his route or anything I run to cover the TE.

[EarvGotti]

Re: The problems with defense

hardcore does not necessarily mean more realistic. If the game is just made harder because the AI defense knows what play you are running and always calls the right defense and the AI offense is unstoppable because you can't get pressure or ever get a solo tackle, that's not realistic.


Is this meant to be serious?

I'm not talking about a simple slider or difficulty adjustment. I'm talking about different programming altogether. I'm not sure how feasible it is, but shouldnt be THAT difficult to tweak a few things and throw a more realistic football experience into a separate mode.