Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

[ZWbullseye]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

It actually has nothing at all to do with coaching. If you took the time to actually look at the CPU's own logic in their GamePlans and Playbooks, then you would instantly see why the game lacks so much realism and strategy.

Tiburon simply has ignored the AI controlled teams and the playbook strategies being used are nothing like what we see on Sundays and most of the play rankings defy sound logic.

The GamePlans are used to ensure teams play like their real-life counterparts.

I see what you mean. Trust me, I do. However, I watched 9 games yesterday and of those 9, I watched the Cowboys, Patriots, Packers, Eagles and Colts. I don't touch game plans. You say we don't see the computer do what teams do on Sunday. Here's what I saw without doing anything.

Quarterback Play Alone

Cowboys: Romo stood in the pocket most of the time but ran a little bit.

Packers: Rogers stood in the pocket most of the time but ran a tiny bit more.

Eagles: Vick threw for 170 yards and ran for 68. Guy was looking to run, literally.

Patriots: Brady stood straight up and down in the pocket and threw for 307, no scrambling.

Colts: Manning stood in the pocket, threw his on field coaching gestures out like crazy and had the Colts in the hurry up from time to time. Not just at the end when the Texans were winning.

I think, based off of quarterback play alone, the cpu does a fine job of attempting to mimic this what we see on Sunday mention without touching a single gameplan on my end..

[ZWbullseye]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

I have a very substantial slider setting and game option setting that I think I'm going to settle on. If anything, IMO, this is a great arena to start out at and then adjust from here what you see fit. Personally, I think a lot of you will truly enjoy what I've seen.

Here are the settings and sliders.

Before anyone gets bent out of shape regarding sacks, I'm still seeing a decent amount. Not a ridiculous amount with these but the way I have these sliders, you almost have to accept them this way otherwise, you'll bust the running game wide open. Significantly reducing pass rush has a major impact on this. Sure, you can adjust run blocking, broken tackles and running ability but lets be honest... "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I'm getting amazingly good numbers all around with these. You may not agree and make some adjustments. Either way, here is at least a very good start. I really like what I'm seeing with these and I'm planning on staying with these with very little adjusting if any at all.

For those of you unsure of what to do, here is how to do everything.

At the main menu after Xbox is turned on...

1. Go to my madden/my settings/game options

Offensive and defensive playbooks are team specific.

Put the skill level at All Pro.

Conventional playcall style.

12 min. Quarters.

Coaching tips Off

Play Clock On

Strategy Pad Off

Coordinator Audio Off

Coordinator Subtitles Off

Accelerated Clock Off (Will still show up in franchise. Can't prevent it)

Camera Settings Broadcast

Auto Strafe On

Auto Sprint On

Injuries 0 (for the sake of testing star starters stats)

Fatigue 50

Game Speed Normal

Player Min. Speed Threshold 50

Coach Mode On


2. Penalties = Default 50

3. Player Skill = Honestly, I don't truly think you have to match these sliders with the cpu since you're not playing but you need the cpu to understand what you want it to do with the sliders you give it. I went ahead and matched these sliders with my cpu sliders just out of sheer habit. Its up to you. I personally don't believe you need to do this but if you're anal about things like I am, I suggest it.

With that said, both player skill and computer skill sliders are...

Everything at 50 except for...

Pass Blocking 100

Fumbles 80

Interceptions 0

Pass Rushing 35



4. Special teams = Default 50

5. Visual Feedback

Pre-snap Menu Off

In-Game Hints Off

Player Names Off

Strategy Pad Display Off



Once you finish with this, save all by pressing the back button.

Make sure you have the latest roster update and save.

Now, load an existing franchise or IMO, since you haven't had the best games on a consistent basis until now, and you may have just downloaded the latest roster, start a new one. I've used one test franchise to pin this down and was always planning on starting over with my owned team.

Once you set your franchise up the way you want, injuries optional to see about stats for star players flesh out, sim or watch your pre-season games.

If you choose to watch in the pre-season to evaluate your talent or if you prefer to sim the pre-season and get right into the meat and potatoes of it all, do this. Its absolutely imperative that you do.

When you select your game to be viewed, make sure the controller you're using with the user profile you've saved with all of those settings, is on a team at the team select button when you begin the game.

When the intro runs and you have to either kick or receive the kickoff, press pause after the ball is kicked. Doesn't matter if you kicked it or are returning it, when the ball is in mid air and go to controller select and now and only now should you place the controller in the middle.

Press A to accept this change and A again to resume game.

What just happened is, at game start up, the cpu is forced to believe you're playing against it and has to take into account the sliders you gave it based on how you want it to perform against you physically. Since the team you started with the controller on was initially thinking it would be playing the cpu, it has no other choice but to take on the cpu sliders you gave and the opposing team that you didn't select was already locked in to play like.

Ultimately what you'll get off of these sliders until you make your adjustments to turnovers, are...

Very good rushing numbers.

Very good passing numbers.

Sacks can be a tiny bit high but not as bad as before.

Almost no interceptions but I have seen 2 games out of 31 where there have been 2 in those.

Almost no fumbles but I left this up to you to decide what you want to see in terms of interceptions and fumbles. I just made sure I came up with a trick to defeat the dreaded turnover (mostly due to interceptions) plague this game suffers from when starting the game with the controller in the middle and not on a team no matter what you do to the sliders. You can change and change and change the sliders after starting the game with the controller in the middle but the computer no doubt plays from its own mindset, not the slider set you gave it.

I hope this helps and you can make your own adjustments off of this.

I'm seeing at least 1 qb getting around 250 to 350 a game. Not both.

I"m seeing at least 1 running back get close and sometimes over 100 yards. Not both.

To me, that is huge in itself. Plus the fact that turnovers have a major leash on them.

You'll see teams lose that had many chances to win just like in real life. You'll see close field goal kicking games and sometimes a blow out. More often than not, you'll flat out see the better team take care of lesser competition.

Good luck!

[youALREADYknow]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

I see what you mean. Trust me, I do. However, I watched 9 games yesterday and of those 9, I watched the Cowboys, Patriots, Packers, Eagles and Colts. I don't touch game plans. You say we don't see the computer do what teams do on Sunday. Here's what I saw without doing anything.

Quarterback Play Alone

Cowboys: Romo stood in the pocket most of the time but ran a little bit.

Packers: Rogers stood in the pocket most of the time but ran a tiny bit more.

Eagles: Vick threw for 170 yards and ran for 68. Guy was looking to run, literally.

Patriots: Brady stood straight up and down in the pocket and threw for 307, no scrambling.

Colts: Manning stood in the pocket, threw his on field coaching gestures out like crazy and had the Colts in the hurry up from time to time. Not just at the end when the Texans were winning.

I think, based off of quarterback play alone, the cpu does a fine job of attempting to mimic this what we see on Sunday mention without touching a single gameplan on my end..

I don't think you really understand what the GamePlans do.

Go to Custom Playbooks from My Settings in the Main Menu and pick any teams playbook. When you find that 1/2 of the offensive play calls with high ratings are set to Four Verticals, Power O, and HB Draw then you know something is wrong. Similarly on defense when you find that Engage Eight, Cover 0 schemes, Cover 2 Zone, and CB Blitzes are 1/2 of the defensive calls with high ratings, then you know something is wrong. Go watch your next CPU/CPU game and you'll see these plays repeatedly.

It's not about how the players act after the snap. It's about the chess match before the snap. If football were only about what happened post-snap, then there wouldn't be any need for coaches or coordinators on Sundays.

The QB play example you gave above has nothing to do with GamePlans and everything to do with Player Roles and Awareness.

[ZWbullseye]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

I don't think you really understand what the GamePlans do.

Go to Custom Playbooks from My Settings in the Main Menu and pick any teams playbook. When you find that 1/2 of the offensive play calls with high ratings are set to Four Verticals, Power O, and HB Draw then you know something is wrong. Similarly on defense when you find that Engage Eight, Cover 0 schemes, Cover 2 Zone, and CB Blitzes are 1/2 of the defensive calls with high ratings, then you know something is wrong. Go watch your next CPU/CPU game and you'll see these plays repeatedly.

It's not about how the players act after the snap. It's about the chess match before the snap. If football were only about what happened post-snap, then there wouldn't be any need for coaches or coordinators on Sundays.

The QB play example you gave above has nothing to do with GamePlans and everything to do with Player Roles and Awareness.

I don't think you understand that what you want out of the game is personal opinion. Congratulations on your discovery! Your opinion of what you want to see and how it plays out is not a reflection of the body here. You'll get a following, but not all.

In connection to whats "understood" and "not understood", do yourself a favor and understand that my initial and single most sought after mission here was to get to the community that sliders can be accounted for by having a controller set on a team at team select and not by starting the game in the middle under, "spectate".

I had listed several times which is well documented that to me, I didn't create this thread to debate what sliders get the best stats, stats in general and it most certainly wasn't meant to discuss gameplan's from my perspective on my discovery and my objective to share with the community. I also made it abundantly clear that opinions will vary regarding what individuals want to see from their personal simulations over cpu vs cpu.

I understand your point but you provided this information to me in the early going and I mentioned to you that I clearly get where you're coming from and what you want to see, "personally". I can't be any more clear than I'm being right now when I say, "I simply gave the community a usable arena to work within, when they were thought to believe sliders were otherwise useless until this point".

I'm happy that you "discovered" this before. Great! I hadn't seen you in here making it available at the rate I did. If you want people to praise you, go ahead. I'm not looking for that. Just thought I'd share, IMO, the single biggest discovery and most effective find in recent memory regarding cpu vs cpu games and the ability to have success with your own decision making regarding sliders, gameplan and game options to have the best experience with this out of the box broken product.

Now I'm sorry Tiburon pissed you off with their lack of realism but thankfully, you've provided another option to the community that may or may not want to dig in. I on the other hand am not in here to tell people which way to go with their sliders or what they should expect to see. If they want what you want, great! If they don't mind what I'm doing, great! It doesn't matter to me and it sure as hell shouldn't matter to you. Case in point, I've provided an eye opening approach to sliders that was otherwise to MOST, overlooked.

That's all, that's it. Nothing more.

I will no longer continue to engage your commitment to prove or disprove your theory of what you see and don't see. Frankly, I don't care what you're looking for.

My objective and your objective are two entirely different things.

Sorry to be so forward but you made the statement that your "observations" put you here 2 years ago. My response to that;

"Should of shared it before I found it. If you did share it a year ago, good for you! I hadn't seen you in here providing your find to the cpu vs cpu community and obviously, had you done that, we'd all be thanking you. I'm not looking for a pat on the back. Just trying to help fellow cpu vs cpu guys out who thought they were left out in the cold for yet, another season. So, if you want to prove from a previous thread or past date that you provided this, more power to you. Until then, accept the fact that you stumbled in on this thread letting me know from the word go that you were already on to this. Why hold out? If you knew there was logic to this method, how come you were late to the punch?"

Take care!

[ZWbullseye]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

I don't think you really understand what the GamePlans do.

Go to Custom Playbooks from My Settings in the Main Menu and pick any teams playbook. When you find that 1/2 of the offensive play calls with high ratings are set to Four Verticals, Power O, and HB Draw then you know something is wrong. Similarly on defense when you find that Engage Eight, Cover 0 schemes, Cover 2 Zone, and CB Blitzes are 1/2 of the defensive calls with high ratings, then you know something is wrong. Go watch your next CPU/CPU game and you'll see these plays repeatedly.

It's not about how the players act after the snap. It's about the chess match before the snap. If football were only about what happened post-snap, then there wouldn't be any need for coaches or coordinators on Sundays.

The QB play example you gave above has nothing to do with GamePlans and everything to do with Player Roles and Awareness.

You also forgot to account for EA's Dynamic Player Performance, which is real BTW.

You say coordinators and coaches wouldn't be needed if it were up to the players...

Bro, I don't care what coach you have, what coordinator you have. I don't care, the best game planner in the business, the best strategist and chessmaster the game has ever known... It most certainly and ultimately comes down to the execution of that player on the field. The coordinators and coaches aren't playing the game.

Also, try and remember this is a video game and will never be real life. When this plan fails you and it ultimately will, find peace with taking what the game can give you under your best sliders. At least be happy for that.

Oh, and if that isn't feasible, try figuring out how to pry open the Dynamic Player Performance that ultimately impacts the players time and time again on the field. Now, if you can crack that, my man, you're a genius.

Until then, its worth mentioning that no matter your clamoring for realism, this is a game built on programming code. Like it or not, it isn't as sophisticated as you would like to believe it is. No matter your rationalization, you will never get the AI to make intelligent adjustments because in video gamedom, you get what the programming code allows you to have. You will, be restricted to the confines of that coliseum. I personally guarantee it.

Knock yourself out with your microscopes and dissection of the game. Sooner or later, you'll have to deal with the reality that this is a game and will never take on the logical, sophisticated thought process of its human counterpart as it is merely programming code, engineered to replicate, not duplicate authentic game play from real world NFL football.

Just get over it.

[manooly]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

Hey ZW! Thanks for all of your work here! Just curious if you are using default settings for Auto Sub INs/OUTs? Are you seeing decent Special Teams play/stats with default settings? How about how many penalties you're getting with them at default? I just want to nail these things down so I can start my CPU vs CPU franchise this weekend. Thanks again!

[youALREADYknow]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

ZW: Sorry if you felt that I hi-jacked your thread. My only reason for posting was to get more information out there for the few Owner and Coach mode gamers that exist out there. Good luck with your CPU/CPU experience and I'll keep watching the thread for more of your findings.

[ZWbullseye]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

Hey ZW! Thanks for all of your work here! Just curious if you are using default settings for Auto Sub INs/OUTs? Are you seeing decent Special Teams play/stats with default settings? How about how many penalties you're getting with them at default? I just want to nail these things down so I can start my CPU vs CPU franchise this weekend. Thanks again!

Yes, I'm using defaults on those and no, I'm not seeing decent special team play. I have seen penalties but I have them at default. There aren't a ton of penalties called but they are called more times than not. I'm sure if I were to dig into penalties and make those adjustments right now, they would have to factor into my stats I'm getting, and how the game plays out. I'm not terribly disappointed with those to be honest.

In terms of special teams, these sliders could use some work. I'm not sure what to do. You'll have to work with those and see what you like.

In all honesty, as I told a fellow member on this thread, I can't really say for sure what the best sliders are for you. You'll have to decide. I think the base set that I wrote this morning are a very good arena to work within. I think they're on the previous page here.

I have stumbled on another interesting/worth noting piece of information however...

My concern with where the controller is when the game starts, (which is normally on the away team if it isn't your owned team) it seemed the away team has been winning the majority of the games. I had one game where the home team won. Houston over Indianapolis and the controller started on the Colts. I had 2 other games where I intentionally moved the controller to the home team to see if the home team would win. I placed it on Chicago at home against Atlanta and St. Louis at home against Philadelphia. Both away teams still won.

So even though I may have at this point in my mind defeated the idea that where the controller is determines who wins, I actually started second guessing myself and thinking that the game will lean to the side the controller is on because that's where it was when I entered the team select.

I know, I know, a lot of over thinking it. Reason is simple though. I've done extensive testing over the past 3 days. 31 games to be exact. 12 min. quarters for all. Dude, its a long time. I mean, a really long time to get through that many. About 10 a day. Games are damn near running an hour and a half it seems. So in all that time, you can get distracted and you can start letting you mind play tricks on you over this controller placement thing.

Today I started with, Detroit @ Tampa Bay in week 1 and the controller naturally is placed on Detroit as the away team and again the away team won. Tampa was never in it. But I noticed something at the moment I pushed A to start the game which I'll come back to in just a second. After that game finished, I was getting worried. I then started to watch Seattle @ San Francisco and again, the controller is on Seattle. What I noticed at the team select of Lions @ Bucs was the team rating. Lions are rated better than the Bucs. I then noticed in this one, Seattle @ San Fran, the 49ers are an 83 and the Seahawks are an 80 and guess what? The Seahawks are losing.

My observation is that the game leans heavily towards the better team which isn't the best as parody is dominant in the NFL but I personally like that if there is truly logic to this finding. I certainly hope there is because that'll mean the guys we sign in the offseason to better our franchise should truly have an important impact on the franchise as a whole and not just a name with a rating themselves.

If this is credible, it'll be the best find to me since I figured out to start the game with a controller placed on a team and then move to the middle after the kickoff to get the cpu to account for the sliders you dialed in for it.

Hopefully that helps and hopefully I'm on to something else here.

Stay tuned!

[ZWbullseye]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

ZW: Sorry if you felt that I hi-jacked your thread. My only reason for posting was to get more information out there for the few Owner and Coach mode gamers that exist out there. Good luck with your CPU/CPU experience and I'll keep watching the thread for more of your findings.

I don't feel you've hi-jacked the thread as I personally don't own it. I'm just not here to debate your version of what you want to see versus what I'm looking for. I'm very thankful for your contribution. Hopefully you'll flesh that out maybe with the help of others. I just feel that the game isn't as sophisticated as you may think it is. EA Sports is a tyrant corporation that doesn't give a damn about its customers.

Like it or not, we are zombie sheep that have made them the beast's they've become. They know we'll buy this game, no matter what. There is no competition. There is no competitive market to ratchet the bar upwards and push to meet that demand. They don't have to be pushed to flesh out these game plans the way 2K sports pushed them before.

I'm not trying to be a jerk to you man, contrary to what it seems, just aggravated with the fact that I've been over it countless times that opinions vary. I absolutely understand what you mean and yes, I know football inside and out. I just don't believe, sincerely, this game is as intelligent, sophisticated, logical or rational as you and I hope it would be.

Does that make sense?

[drassler]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

I think that the situation with the amount of sacks in a game also has to do with the QB himself. I was watching the week 1 game BAL vs PIT and Big Ben had excellent blocking, but danced around in the pocket for too long and Ngata got to him. Had he gotten rid of it downfield or threw it away he would've been fine. Thats just my take on how sacks go in the game.

[ZWbullseye]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

I think that the situation with the amount of sacks in a game also has to do with the QB himself. I was watching the week 1 game BAL vs PIT and Big Ben had excellent blocking, but danced around in the pocket for too long and Ngata got to him. Had he gotten rid of it downfield or threw it away he would've been fine. Thats just my take on how sacks go in the game.

I know what you mean man. There in lay a fine line though. If you don't have that type of blocking, passing yards and scoring goes way way down. If you have too much blocking, and not enough pass rush, it effects the rushing and that see's a monumental explosion, the games turn into shootouts and ROBO QB rears its ugly head with under 2 min. to play and you can almost guarantee, you'll see 2 or more huge touchdown passes at the end.

If you want my honest opinion. I saw so many times over the years, the computer throwing late game bombs or last second miracle passes to win, EA countered that with its new enlisted, "sack fest".

It works to prevent the ridiculous, out of control games where you see captain comeback 5 out of 7 games.

As long as I'm not seeing that garbage, I'll deal with a team getting 5 or 6 sacks on one side and the other getting 4. No problem.

One other thing worth mentioning here is that if you drop the real life comparisons with sacks and decide to let the cpu make its own world of stats, of course within reason, why not let the game run its course? Its not the real NFL. Won't ever be. The way I see it... If Ware gets 29 sacks in a season, hey, new record for some other computer rusher to break.

[ZWbullseye]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

I've posted my latest settings/sliders on the first page with today's date for anyone interested in starting over or starting out. Keep in mind, these are simply a base arena to operate within. There are extremely good numbers materializing from these. If you want to see something different than what I have, you're going to need to adjust as you go.

[DolpFan]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

I know what you mean man. There in lay a fine line though. If you don't have that type of blocking, passing yards and scoring goes way way down. If you have too much blocking, and not enough pass rush, it effects the rushing and that see's a monumental explosion, the games turn into shootouts and ROBO QB rears its ugly head with under 2 min. to play and you can almost guarantee, you'll see 2 or more huge touchdown passes at the end.

If you want my honest opinion. I saw so many times over the years, the computer throwing late game bombs or last second miracle passes to win, EA countered that with its new enlisted, "sack fest".

It works to prevent the ridiculous, out of control games where you see captain comeback 5 out of 7 games.

As long as I'm not seeing that garbage, I'll deal with a team getting 5 or 6 sacks on one side and the other getting 4. No problem.

One other thing worth mentioning here is that if you drop the real life comparisons with sacks and decide to let the cpu make its own world of stats, of course within reason, why not let the game run its course? Its not the real NFL. Won't ever be. The way I see it... If Ware gets 29 sacks in a season, hey, new record for some other computer rusher to break.

Man I agree with you bullseye.. I was getting to that point with my own sliders and then just realized that it's gonna be dang near impossible to replicate the NFL through Video Game AI.. The sacks I can live with also. Sometimes the total amount of sacks in games I seen ranges from 2 to as many as 7-8 but every game is different... My QBs are getting the accustomed 3-5 secs of pocket time,some make great plays, some don't but thats sports. I totally agree with you when you said let the game make their own stats.. There are sliders who get realistic stats but people don't like "how" they got them... Me, if my game and player stats look close to or resemble the NFL games stats, I'm fine with that...

DolpFan

[ZWbullseye]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

Just had an amazing game played! Absolutely AMAZING!!!

Yes the away team won but the home team was dominating this game for a great majority of it which I hadn't seen.

Seattle @ San Francisco

Seahawks 30
49ers 24 OT

San Fran had a chance to kick the game winning field goal tied at 24 at the end of regulation but missed the 53 yard kick that sent it into overtime. Both teams touched the ball twice. San Fran won the toss but went 3 and out. Seattle first, came close to a field goal try but lost yards and punted. San Fran couldn't get the ball away from their own 20 and had to punt again. Seattle came out and on the first play of the second possession, Lynch went 57 yards for the game winner.

As much as I want to believe the away team always wins or the better rated team wins, I just don't know. First game out of all of them where the better rated team/non controlled lost and like so many times before, the away team won, yet again.

However, San Fran had their chances. They were up at one point 24 - 14. Seattle got a touch down in the third and a late fourth qtr. filed goal for the tie. San Fran methodically drove down and then missed the game winning kick just before OT.

Here are the stats.

Whitehurst 25 of 40 for 283 yards 3 td's 1 int
Smith 26 of 37 for 237 yards 2 td's 1 int

Lynch 28 att 162 yards 2 td's 1 fumble 5.7 avg. (long of 57 in OT)
Gore 25 att 164 yards 1 td 6.5 avg (long of 51 during regulation)

Edwards 8 rec. 76 yards 1 td
Williams 7 rec. 83 yards 1 td

Interceptions = 2 (Total for both teams)

Fumbles = 2 (Total for both teams)

Sacks = 6 (Total for both teams)

SEA Mebane 1/Bryant 1
SF Dobbs 1/McDonald 1/Smith 1/Brock 1

[ZWbullseye]

Re: Big discovery for CPU vs CPU users! MUST READ!!!

Man I agree with you bullseye.. I was getting to that point with my own sliders and then just realized that it's gonna be dang near impossible to replicate the NFL through Video Game AI.. The sacks I can live with also. Sometimes the total amount of sacks in games I seen ranges from 2 to as many as 7-8 but every game is different... My QBs are getting the accustomed 3-5 secs of pocket time,some make great plays, some don't but thats sports. I totally agree with you when you said let the game make their own stats.. There are sliders who get realistic stats but people don't like "how" they got them... Me, if my game and player stats look close to or resemble the NFL games stats, I'm fine with that...

DolpFan

You nailed it!

I've watched your thread for a while in the hopes you could coral this interception thing. I noticed you weren't able to accomplish this and I was really hoping you would have. I'm glad you came in here because I wasn't sure if you had seen this discovery I made or not. Hopefully you've tried it out and see what I found, for yourself. I know you were frustrated with the interceptions and I was generally watching to see what you could uncover. Here's my contribution and hopefully, it will work wonders for you bro!

I'm just glad I resolved it not just for myself, but for everyone in this CPU/CPU community!