Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

[RazzBerry80]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

We are not going to turn this thread into a 2k vs Madden war. The point of this thread, and why many people still "fly the 2k flag" is because there are alot of elements of 2k football that would improve the quality of Madden. And thats all any of us want. The best quality football game possible.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

Sad to see this... It reminds me of when I still lived in NC and saw people flying the flag of the confederate states ,that only lasted 4 years, 150 years after they lost the Civil War. SMH...

2K lost the war. Why are we still flying the flag?

Later

There are just some things 2k did better (and some things they did worse). The 4 topics being covered by the op are just a few examples of things EA doesn't do as well as it's competition once did. If you stopped flying the EA flag long enough to try another football game, you might find a few things you would like EA to incorporate.

Here is great one--the defensive audible system. As someone who enjoys the competition and strategy of head to head games, I think you would love APFs controls. Here is a video created by maddensimplayers.com describing it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFGwKm4eU6Y

[Lexicon]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

This thread isn't about bringing 2K back, it's about the things that Madden continues to screw up, and 2K just happens to be the example of how not to screw those things up.

[trent11189]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

Whenever I hear people say the LB or DB has superman leaps - it's ALWAYS because they didn't throw properly. Defenders in Madden don't really jump that high. But tons of Madden players throw too low by pressing the button too hard in panic situations - especially when flushed out of the pocket.

In real football players that can't make those plays are said to lack poise. In Madden it's called an AI defect. SMH.

Later

he's right you know. In the NAtional Football Leaugue, the truely poised athletes can not only jump straight into the air, but also hover horizontally or diagonally at the same time. Not only that, but I've seen champ baily jump and swat with his left hand, then, without ever coming down, jump again to swat with his right.

Poise.... ALWAYS.

[red-and-gold]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

This thread isn't about bringing 2K back, it's about the things that Madden continues to screw up, and 2K just happens to be the example of how not to screw those things up.

toast

[TNT713]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

he's right you know. In the NAtional Football Leaugue, the truely poised athletes can not only jump straight into the air, but also hover horizontally or diagonally at the same time. Not only that, but I've seen champ baily jump and swat with his left hand, then, without ever coming down, jump again to swat with his right.

Poise.... ALWAYS.

20 years of Madden. 8 years playing 12 months a year. And I have yet to see anything remotely resembling what you just mentioned in a Madden game.

I've seen players merge into the ground, merge together, freeze in place, speed burst faster than they can sprint, start plays from out of bounds without penalty, run through walls, and a host of other kooky items...

But NEVER have I seen any player defy gravity. This includes Madden 2000 where there were codes that made players jump 50 yards in the air and electrified sidelines...

NEVER... in 20 years. Not saying I've seen everything wrong with Madden, but you would think that someone that plays Madden primarily for almost a decade would at least know what you're referring to.

Got any film to say show us what you mean? I'd really love to see that.

Later

[Lexicon]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

Here are just a few of the problems EA has with their coverage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaEhfa_7QOQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5R7qxUDacU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ey6MNiiEwo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqjb6ldmv3g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-3pDeZH0bM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j07NA33mJ-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhC1xNiTfU0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fFWJ3wGMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5J879KGv1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXg5M2gTXNM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioNyl7l6P7E
Watch on this one how the CB just turns around without looking back to see if the QB actually threw the ball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpg92kEC1JU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DyDS...el_video_title

Players sliding or transporting to the ball. The ball going through receivers bodies. Jumping routes without knowing the QB even threw the ball. Balls being deflected by invisible limbs. EA's fundamentals are broken. How you've been playing Madden for that long and haven't noticed these things is questionable.

[trent11189]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

No I don't have any way of posting videos atm. But if you're honestly gonna tell me that you've played madden for a week, let alone 20 years and never seen a defender slide/hover/warp/teleport to a spot to make a pick or deflection, then I'm gonna call you a liar.

now the double jump I was referring to is an animation that happens when throwing fade routes. the db will jump in the air with one arm extended trying to tip the ball, then the reciever catches the ball, then the db jumps again and tries to knock the ball out with the other arm. now if you go to practice mode on m11 and throw fade routes for 10 mins or so I guarantee you'll see it.

20 years of Madden. 8 years playing 12 months a year. And I have yet to see anything remotely resembling what you just mentioned in a Madden game.

I've seen players merge into the ground, merge together, freeze in place, speed burst faster than they can sprint, start plays from out of bounds without penalty, run through walls, and a host of other kooky items...

But NEVER have I seen any player defy gravity. This includes Madden 2000 where there were codes that made players jump 50 yards in the air and electrified sidelines...

NEVER... in 20 years. Not saying I've seen everything wrong with Madden, but you would think that someone that plays Madden primarily for almost a decade would at least know what you're referring to.

Got any film to say show us what you mean? I'd really love to see that.

Later

[TNT713]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

We are not going to turn this thread into a 2k vs Madden war. The point of this thread, and why many people still "fly the 2k flag" is because there are alot of elements of 2k football that would improve the quality of Madden. And thats all any of us want. The best quality football game possible.

No doubt. We don't need it to be a game war. The games are both great in their own right - Each has it's strengths and weaknesses. I'm very familiar with Madden's weaknesses, but not so with APF. Since I don't play, I don't get nearly the exposure I'd need to point out it's issues.

I have to state for the record:

For anyone that wants to learn to use the Route Based mechanic in Madden - I'll do whatever I can to show you how. I'm intimately familiar with simulating real football mechanics using the stick and buttons in the Madden environment.

For anyone that wants to compare the two games Route Based mechanics - I'm not the guy to talk to. I have no clue as to the first thing about playing APF/2K.

This particular issue - Route Based Passing - is one that is near and dear to my heart. I often see fans of APF discussing Route Based mechanics as if they don't exist in Madden. My point to responding to the OP wasn't to make this a comparison thread - it was to present the idea that a Route Based Mechanic does exist in Madden.

I'll have to assume that the implementation is different on the games, but it exists on both. By the nature of the assertion, it leads to a comparison of the two mechanics.

I'll end by saying that a Route Based mechanic exist in Madden - but it is different than how they exist in APF (according to my APF sources...lol).

Later

[RazzBerry80]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

Route based passing in madden is so limited that it almost doesn't exist, in camparison to the fully fleshed out route based passing of APF. TNT you are right it is there, but not enough for many to even know it's there let alone enough to appease those who have played APF. The system that APF uses is exaclty what we want.

Moving on, I hate that DB swat/tackle animation THAT HAS TO GO. Go for the swat, or go for the tackle, DON"T DO BOTH IN MID-AIR!!

[TNT713]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

Here are just a few of the problems EA has with their coverage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaEhfa_7QOQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5R7qxUDacU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ey6MNiiEwo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqjb6ldmv3g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-3pDeZH0bM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j07NA33mJ-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhC1xNiTfU0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fFWJ3wGMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5J879KGv1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXg5M2gTXNM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioNyl7l6P7E
Watch on this one how the CB just turns around without looking back to see if the QB actually threw the ball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpg92kEC1JU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DyDS...el_video_title

Players sliding or transporting to the ball. The ball going through receivers bodies. Jumping routes without knowing the QB even threw the ball. Balls being deflected by invisible limbs. EA's fundamentals are broken. How you've been playing Madden for that long and haven't noticed these things is questionable.

Checked out all of these videos. Some of these glitches I'd seen in my own games (ball morphing thru players, curving into defender hands, etc). Others I've never seen outside of YouTube videos (flying safety).

I'll assume that either these issues affect modes I don't use more than the ones I do, or they have been fixed already. The ball doesn't curve into defender hands anymore and hasn't since '08.

No I don't have any way of posting videos atm. But if you're honestly gonna tell me that you've played madden for a week, let alone 20 years and never seen a defender slide/hover/warp/teleport to a spot to make a pick or deflection, then I'm gonna call you a liar.

Please don't. Let's keep this civil.

What I said is that I've never seen a DB jump twice without touching the ground first - which was how it was described. Still haven't seen it.

now the double jump I was referring to is an animation that happens when throwing fade routes. the db will jump in the air with one arm extended trying to tip the ball, then the reciever catches the ball, then the db jumps again and tries to knock the ball out with the other arm. now if you go to practice mode on m11 and throw fade routes for 10 mins or so I guarantee you'll see it.

You'll have to pardon me, but I don't throw many fade routes on Madden 11 so I'll need some coaching...

How should I throw the ball?
Which receiver should I throw to (outside, slot, or does it matter)?
When should I throw the ball?
What defensive coverages should I try this against?

While I haven't seen the 'double-jump,' I have seen what can be characterized as a 'slide' just before a catch - but the times I've replayed it I noticed the player's feet move as I expect they should to make the movement the player is making. The slide seems to come from an instantaneous acceleration to move the player in position. The acceleration is very noticeable... But I haven't noticed this on Madden 11.

This particular problem was most noticeable prior to Madden '09. I haven't seen a frame rate increase for one player in a few years. What I have seen is what seems like a frame rate reduction causing individual players to 'freeze' most recently encountered in Madden 10.

In any case, these things are rare. But when you have 40 million games played in less than 6 months (the equivalent of 2.5 million NFL seasons), you're going to see some weird stuff. Heck, if you watch the real NFL for ONE season, you're going to see some weird stuff.

If anything, I've more often noticed a slow down when switching to players that is evidence of the new Locomotion system and how it affects how we must move players. Moving the left stick thru the center of the range tells players to slow down, stop, then move again and gives defenders a colossal disadvantage IF the user isn't moving the stick around the edges of the range - which tells players to continue running as they change direction.

But that's neither here nor there... The truth is simply that no one ever seems to mention what other games do wrong. And they don't hold problems that were fixed years ago over the heads of the devs either. Which is par for the course because if they did, I don't think anyone would care.

Later

[TNT713]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

Moving on, I hate that DB swat/tackle animation THAT HAS TO GO. Go for the swat, or go for the tackle, DON"T DO BOTH IN MID-AIR!!

Assuming this is the 'double jump' animation I'm looking to simulate, I have seen the swat tackle. But it's nowhere near being a double-jump or hover as it was described...

In fact it looks alot like I was taught to defend a WR attempting a catch in the air. Swat with the arm closest to the ball with the trailing arm around the waist of the receiver so that if the catch is made, you can still get him on the ground.

After all, the SWAT button tells defenders to defend the ball when there is no contact. But it becomes a Strip/tackle button when players make contact. In the air, receivers can't generate power to break the tackle...

So unless there's a definitive 'double-jump' that is different from the swat/tackle I'll continue with my experiment... Otherwise, I'm not sure what's wrong with it (but I'm sure someone will tell me).

Later

[trent11189]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

ok first of all, I wanna apologize for saying you were a liar, that was a little out of line. my bad buddy.

That swat/tackle you guys are talkin about just might be what I'm calling a double jump but im not sure.
for the fade routes I'm talkin about I would throw a pass to the right back corner of the endzone. need to use a good reciever to ensure that hes even capable of making the catch in tight coverage (sidney rice is who I use so I know it'll work with him). you wanna throw the ball pretty much as soon as you can, meaning snap it and tap the button before your qb even completes his full dropback.( this might not mkatter but its how i do it). I dont think it matters which kind of coverage its against but it may not work in double man. The animation im talkin about is like this: your reciever goes up in the air with both hands reaching for the ball, the db jumps up in the air with one hand going for the ball to try and tip it, the db misses the ball (or more likely it goes through his hands), the reciever makes the catch, the db then elevates a second time and swats the ball which is now being cradled by the reciever with his other hand (fr4om behind the reciever and btw if hes in front of the reciever when the animation starts he will teleport to behind him), then both players fall to the ground. i've seen it happen on jump balls outside the endzone as well, but not as often.

[TNT713]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

ok first of all, I wanna apologize for saying you were a liar, that was a little out of line. my bad buddy.

No biggie.

That swat/tackle you guys are talkin about just might be what I'm calling a double jump but im not sure.
for the fade routes I'm talkin about I would throw a pass to the right back corner of the endzone. need to use a good reciever to ensure that hes even capable of making the catch in tight coverage (sidney rice is who I use so I know it'll work with him). you wanna throw the ball pretty much as soon as you can, meaning snap it and tap the button before your qb even completes his full dropback.( this might not mkatter but its how i do it). I dont think it matters which kind of coverage its against but it may not work in double man. The animation im talkin about is like this: your reciever goes up in the air with both hands reaching for the ball, the db jumps up in the air with one hand going for the ball to try and tip it, the db misses the ball (or more likely it goes through his hands), the reciever makes the catch, the db then elevates a second time and swats the ball which is now being cradled by the reciever with his other hand (fr4om behind the reciever and btw if hes in front of the reciever when the animation starts he will teleport to behind him), then both players fall to the ground. i've seen it happen on jump balls outside the endzone as well, but not as often.

Thanks for the scenario... I'll try some of these out in the studio tomorrow afternoon and let you know what I find. I'm going to try it with Brandon Lafell because he's the tallest receiver on my team.

Later

[LiquorLogic]

Re: Something that I really want to see in Madden 12.

No doubt. We don't need it to be a game war. The games are both great in their own right - Each has it's strengths and weaknesses. I'm very familiar with Madden's weaknesses, but not so with APF. Since I don't play, I don't get nearly the exposure I'd need to point out it's issues.

I have to state for the record:

For anyone that wants to learn to use the Route Based mechanic in Madden - I'll do whatever I can to show you how. I'm intimately familiar with simulating real football mechanics using the stick and buttons in the Madden environment.

For anyone that wants to compare the two games Route Based mechanics - I'm not the guy to talk to. I have no clue as to the first thing about playing APF/2K.

This particular issue - Route Based Passing - is one that is near and dear to my heart. I often see fans of APF discussing Route Based mechanics as if they don't exist in Madden. My point to responding to the OP wasn't to make this a comparison thread - it was to present the idea that a Route Based Mechanic does exist in Madden.

I'll have to assume that the implementation is different on the games, but it exists on both. By the nature of the assertion, it leads to a comparison of the two mechanics.

I'll end by saying that a Route Based mechanic exist in Madden - but it is different than how they exist in APF (according to my APF sources...lol).

Later

There is no route-based passing in Madden. Again, Madden doesn't have route-based passing. Sure, if a WR is running a dig route, you can throw it when the WR is at a certain point in the route, and the QB will throw it to a spot and not the wr, but if you throw it earlier, the route will turn into a go route. It's the best of both worlds, which isn't realistic at all. In all actually, just about every route in Madden is an option route whether the play calls for it or not.

In some other games, if you throw the ball too early, because of pressure or some other reason, the WR doesn't react to the ball because he's at a point in the route where he hasn't looked for the ball yet. Now Procedural awareness, two years ago, was supposed to take care of this phenomenon, but it didn't.