Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

[SA1NT401]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

I personally want a FOOTABALL game that plays like the actual game....

I dont care if it doesnt have NFL teams (nor do i have a desire to make them). How long has it been since we ACTUALLY HAD A DIFFERANT FOOTBALL GAME TO PLAY? Or should i say INNOVATIVE.

BB could be awful...It could be riddled with lacluster AI on both side of the ball....Franchise mode could be stale an uninspired.

But would that really be something we are NOT used to?

I think, at its core...BB is really on to something.

Anything that could leave EA awake nites is 100% fine with me....

[Jimixiii]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

I'm really becoming excited for this game. I don't like the constant "this will hit EA where it hurts" mentality. For people who want something different, or something that is recreating how we play videogame football, Backbreaker has great potential. Hoping the game puts EA in its place will just lead to more frustration.

All EA has to do is flex its NFL muscle in the casual gamer's face and it's a lock for them.

Why not throw EA's faces in the dirt. EA did it to them, NM went to EA for to introduce this technology and basically said it was inferior & would never work. There's nothing wrong with a good rivalry. It's nothing new to gaming. So in the long run, may the best team win...

[Valdarez]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

Backbreaker definitely has a lot of potential. Anytime a gamer is put 'in the action', it's almost always a positive. TopSpin 2 allowed us to play close 3rd person camera angle, and for real tennis players, it was pretty close to the real thing. I've tried to ask Ian what EA's approach is, whether they are presenting the game from the fans perspective (broadcast) or the players (1st / 3rd person), as most football games to date stand awkwardly in the middle, including Madden though it tends to go for the broadcast more than anything else.

On break away runs, I never understood why Madden pulled the camera back, and then shook it back and forth. That has to be one of the worst presentation elements ever added to a game. Instead of putting me in no man lands view wise, have the camera zoom in on the player so you see what they see as they cross the line. That would have been far more realistic and easily more engaging. This is why you need a clear vision for your presentation, and as far as I can see Madden still doesn't have one. It's VERY refreshing to see BackBreaker clearly has a vision and has executed towards that vision from day one.

[Valdarez]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

OMG... the article says that the Players will be 1-22??? I never read this before! Has this been public knowledge for awhile and I've just been out of the loop? Any more information on 'how' that's going to work? That is just AWESOME!

[t11]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

Oh no... hysteria... lol

It was a typo.

[Glorious Arc]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

Oh no... hysteria... lol

It was a typo.

Didnt we just go over this in the other...

I wouldnt start spreading the word that BB is going to be like fifa soccer 11 human players vs 11 human players just yet because Rob one of the devs came in and said it was a typo...He also at the end of his comment saying "Sorry if it got your hopes up" Only time will tell if he was being 100% serious or if he was trying to cover up a premature release of some seriously amazing info.

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

I'm really becoming excited for this game. I don't like the constant "this will hit EA where it hurts" mentality. For people who want something different, or something that is recreating how we play videogame football, Backbreaker has great potential. Hoping the game puts EA in its place will just lead to more frustration.

All EA has to do is flex its NFL muscle in the casual gamer's face and it's a lock for them.

I'm gonna have to disagree with this. PES has had option file capability forever. And I'm sure that the EA suits would have loved to shut down the capability to be able to make real kits and logos. They (EA) paid a lot of dough to have authentic stuff. But they couldn't shut PES down. 2k just didn't want to offend the NFL hoping that they could get back in the game during APF development. BB's parent company doesn't have that type of worry, EA already has said no on buying the tech, so Natural Motion has nothing really to lose beng diplomatic.And it would be a stretch for the NFL to cry copyright infringement. BB has different uni's that in no way look like a NFL uniform. Now the logos would be user created and shared, so they'd have a hard time trying to push that angle. So the NFL is gonna leave it alone, as will EA. Unless they wanted to risk their ability to offer editing in NCAA..... IMO, not worth it for EA to try and set legal precedent.

[TheWatcher]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

^^^ I think Dave was meaning that the NFL license appeals to gamers more than a non-NFL licensed product, and all EA has to do is play up that part with a strong marketing push and it's going to hurt any competitor who's trying to make a mark with technology alone.

Madden is going to sell in the millions anyway and BB isn't going to hurt that, we all know that. But if BB sells a few hundred thousand it'll be a big victory for everybody.

What bothers me is when I hear gamers say they won't touch this game because it doesn't have an NFL license. I understand why they say it, but they may not realize that not buying it will only help to keep the market down. If the game is good and you have the means, it would be a good idea to buy it just to help open up the market.

This is a copycat industry, and if a non-NFL licensed game succeeds, more studios will take a shot. This is exactly what we want to happen. But like I've said in the past (and we see this happening here and there), smaller indie's will pop up making American football games. If you count between console, mobile, and internet-based American football games, there is a good number out there. Right now, it's up to gamers to help open the possibilities. Instead of all the complaining I hear people doing about how much they hate Madden and the NFL license situation, I wish they'd stop and start buying and getting into these other games on the market. This situation is not going to change unless gamers stop crying and start getting involved.

Finally, it should be noted that making a good football game has nothing to do with a license. Some of the greatest football games of all time did not have the NFL license. It's already a fact that the technology exists to make the NFL license irrelevant, meaning that the NFL can be recreated by end users. It just takes a developer who is willing to make the tools available like BB is doing. The only thing that will keep this from being 100% are the player models which look nothing like current players (BB is supposedly going for a futuristic look), but another company may come along and create models that look like current players. We just need to keep supporting the market to make sure these possibilities become available.

[turftickler]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

I'm gonna have to disagree with this. PES has had option file capability forever. And I'm sure that the EA suits would have loved to shut down the capability to be able to make real kits and logos. They (EA) paid a lot of dough to have authentic stuff. But they couldn't shut PES down. 2k just didn't want to offend the NFL hoping that they could get back in the game during APF development. BB's parent company doesn't have that type of worry, EA already has said no on buying the tech, so Natural Motion has nothing really to lose beng diplomatic.And it would be a stretch for the NFL to cry copyright infringement. BB has different uni's that in no way look like a NFL uniform. Now the logos would be user created and shared, so they'd have a hard time trying to push that angle. So the NFL is gonna leave it alone, as will EA. Unless they wanted to risk their ability to offer editing in NCAA..... IMO, not worth it for EA to try and set legal precedent.

Great post, Brian. We have been discussing this over at the official Backbreaker forum. I have been saying the same exact things there, but we have a few guys that keep fighting the truth. Scare tactics, I believe.

You have an impressive portfolio. What did you do when you worked on ESPN NFL 2k5?

[SageInfinite]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

^^^ I think Dave was meaning that the NFL license appeals to gamers more than a non-NFL licensed product, and all EA has to do is play up that part with a strong marketing push and it's going to hurt any competitor who's trying to make a mark with technology alone.

Madden is going to sell in the millions anyway and BB isn't going to hurt that, we all know that. But if BB sells a few hundred thousand it'll be a big victory for everybody.

What bothers me is when I hear gamers say they won't touch this game because it doesn't have an NFL license. I understand why they say it, but they may not realize that not buying it will only help to keep the market down. If the game is good and you have the means, it would be a good idea to buy it just to help open up the market.

This is a copycat industry, and if a non-NFL licensed game succeeds, more studios will take a shot. This is exactly what we want to happen. But like I've said in the past (and we see this happening here and there), smaller indie's will pop up making American football games. If you count between console, mobile, and internet-based American football games, there is a good number out there. Right now, it's up to gamers to help open the possibilities. Instead of all the complaining I hear people doing about how much they hate Madden and the NFL license situation, I wish they'd stop and start buying and getting into these other games on the market. This situation is not going to change unless gamers stop crying and start getting involved.

Finally, it should be noted that making a good football game has nothing to do with a license. Some of the greatest football games of all time did not have the NFL license. It's already a fact that the technology exists to make the NFL license irrelevant, meaning that the NFL can be recreated by end users. It just takes a developer who is willing to make the tools available like BB is doing. The only thing that will keep this from being 100% are the player models which look nothing like current players (BB is supposedly going for a futuristic look), but another company may come along and create models that look like current players. We just need to keep supporting the market to make sure these possibilities become available.

[CharleyDanger]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

I'm gonna have to disagree with this. PES has had option file capability forever. And I'm sure that the EA suits would have loved to shut down the capability to be able to make real kits and logos. They (EA) paid a lot of dough to have authentic stuff. But they couldn't shut PES down. 2k just didn't want to offend the NFL hoping that they could get back in the game during APF development. BB's parent company doesn't have that type of worry, EA already has said no on buying the tech, so Natural Motion has nothing really to lose beng diplomatic.And it would be a stretch for the NFL to cry copyright infringement. BB has different uni's that in no way look like a NFL uniform. Now the logos would be user created and shared, so they'd have a hard time trying to push that angle. So the NFL is gonna leave it alone, as will EA. Unless they wanted to risk their ability to offer editing in NCAA..... IMO, not worth it for EA to try and set legal precedent.

I think you made some solid points but I respectively disagree.

First I think companies being liable for UGC is pretty clear cut with the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) The below is a link to an article written by a lawyer that specializes in interactive entertainment.

http://www.lawofthelevel.com/2009/07/articles-1/eula/ingame-monitoring-may-create-exposure-to-copyright-liability-claims/

With that said, a company has to have motive to to take legal action right?

Well you made a good point about PES, but it would not be EAs fight in the NatMo case. The NFL owns the rights, EA is just allowed to use them. Now the fact that the NFL sold exclusive use of the rights to EA makes the NFL legally obligated to make sure no one else is using those rights. So the NFL is not just motivated, but obligated. Also I think the NFL has already taken note to the fact that the NCAA is in court for not protecting its players names and likeness, and the NFL will take steps to prevent such future liability.

NCAA case: http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/200...e-rabbit-hole/

First, I think your right about logos and jerseys not being accurate enough to be called infringing, but I dont think logos will be the issue. I think it will be the infringement of players names and likeness that leads to legal action. Now NatMo has very generic player models, but proving name and info to be infringing is 10 times easier than proving likeness.

Now you spoke of EA not wanting to set a precedent. Well the above NCAA lawsuit also includes EA. The below is a quote from the suit

"EA Sports "intentionally circumvents the prohibitions on utilizing student-athletes' names by allowing gamers to upload entire rosters, which include players' names and other information, directly into the game in a matter of seconds."

EAs case:http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4151071

So the cat is already out of the bag really. I actually think that EA will be pushing the NFL from day one to prevent an illegal recreation
of the NFL in BB.

I will admit that the EA/NCAA lawsuit is still pending, but the judge in the case has already dismissed all attempts by EA to have the case thrown out. If a single former NCAA player has gotten that far, imagine what a fortune 500 company and one of most powerful sports league in the world could do.

[bill2451]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

well just for the record, based on a previous court ruling w/ regards to fantasy sports, players names (and by extension biographical info like age, hometown, etc) and statistics, are considered public domain and therefore their use is protected by the first amendment

anyone can use them

[TheWatcher]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

I think you made some solid points but I respectively disagree.

First I think companies being liable for UGC is pretty clear cut with the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) The below is a link to an article written by a lawyer that specializes in interactive entertainment.

http://www.lawofthelevel.com/2009/07/articles-1/eula/ingame-monitoring-may-create-exposure-to-copyright-liability-claims/

With that said, a company has to have motive to to take legal action right?

Well you made a good point about PES, but it would not be EAs fight in the NatMo case. The NFL owns the rights, EA is just allowed to use them. Now the fact that the NFL sold exclusive use of the rights to EA makes the NFL legally obligated to make sure no one else is using those rights. So the NFL is not just motivated, but obligated. Also I think the NFL has already taken note to the fact that the NCAA is in court for not protecting its players names and likeness, and the NFL will take steps to prevent such future liability.

NCAA case: http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/200...e-rabbit-hole/

First, I think your right about logos and jerseys not being accurate enough to be called infringing, but I dont think logos will be the issue. I think it will be the infringement of players names and likeness that leads to legal action. Now NatMo has very generic player models, but proving name and info to be infringing is 10 times easier than proving likeness.

Now you spoke of EA not wanting to set a precedent. Well the above NCAA lawsuit also includes EA. The below is a quote from the suit

"EA Sports "intentionally circumvents the prohibitions on utilizing student-athletes' names by allowing gamers to upload entire rosters, which include players' names and other information, directly into the game in a matter of seconds."

EAs case:http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4151071

So the cat is already out of the bag really. I actually think that EA will be pushing the NFL from day one to prevent an illegal recreation
of the NFL in BB.

I will admit that the EA/NCAA lawsuit is still pending, but the judge in the case has already dismissed all attempts by EA to have the case thrown out. If a single former NCAA player has gotten that far, imagine what a fortune 500 company and one of most powerful sports league in the world could do.

At the moment, the only reason the NFL's attempt would fail and probably never go to trial, is because the abilities to recreate are all tied into tools controlled by the end-user. NCAA Football got into trouble because the players they shipped were'nt generic enough and as the claim shows a lot of players were accurate down to height, weight, and city of birth. You have to wonder what the NCAA team and the legal department were thinking? They were just asking for it.

Part of the NCAA suit, however, is quite stupid but frightening at the same time. The idea that the NCAA should be penalized for END-USERS editing names is ridiculous. If Keller wins, that means editing names and various other attributes may be prohibited, meaning companies will no longer include this indispensible function. That's scary.

I wouldn't mind if Keller got a victory on the likeness part pertaining to attributes and looks, because he does have a valid case there, but the name editing part is a very irresponsible claim that could be potentially disastrous, because all it takes is one judge who doesn't understand the implications or simply doesn't care about them, and we're all screwed. The minute you take end-users right to do what they want away, you've crossed the line. There are some franchises that such a ruling could set a precendent where they'd be crippled just because a major buying factor would be gone and gamers wouldn't be nearly as interested. This could kill games like Maximum Football, PES, and BackBreaker.

I'm all for the NCAA being taken to task, but the editing angle of the claim puts me on the NCAA's side this time. If Keller wins, Football gamers lose again (how many devastating blows can we take?) and this time it may be a fatal blow for some franchises that rely on allowing the end-user to edit players.

[GlennN]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

I wouldn't mind if Keller got a victory on the likeness part pertaining to attributes and looks, because he does have a valid case there, but the name editing part is a very irresponsible claim that could be potentially disastrous, because all it takes is one judge who doesn't understand the implications or simply doesn't care about them, and we're all screwed. The minute you take end-users right to do what they want away, you've crossed the line. There are some franchises that such a ruling could set a precendent where they'd be crippled just because a major buying factor would be gone and gamers wouldn't be nearly as interested. This could kill games like Maximum Football, PES, and BackBreaker.

I'm all for the NCAA being taken to task, but the editing angle of the claim puts me on the NCAA's side this time. If Keller wins, Football gamers lose again (how many devastating blows can we take?) and this time it may be a fatal blow for some franchises that rely on allowing the end-user to edit players.

Actually, it would seem success by Keller could kill any edit or create player/team function at all. Even a licensed game, like Madden, only has a certain license. Creating a player, or editing a player, could lead to the end user creating a real rookie, or a real former player, neither of which would be covered under the license, and, thus, would be unlawful (or at least actionable) under a potential Keller victory. You are correct, a Judge who does not fully understand the ramifications could make all edit and create player/team functions obsolete.

[ronnieb]

Re: Backbreaker Preview (Xbox 360 Magazine)

At the moment, the only reason the NFL's attempt would fail and probably never go to trial, is because the abilities to recreate are all tied into tools controlled by the end-user. NCAA Football got into trouble because the players they shipped were'nt generic enough and as the claim shows a lot of players were accurate down to height, weight, and city of birth. You have to wonder what the NCAA team and the legal department were thinking? They were just asking for it.

Part of the NCAA suit, however, is quite stupid but frightening at the same time. The idea that the NCAA should be penalized for END-USERS editing names is ridiculous. If Keller wins, that means editing names and various other attributes may be prohibited, meaning companies will no longer include this indispensible function. That's scary.

I wouldn't mind if Keller got a victory on the likeness part pertaining to attributes and looks, because he does have a valid case there, but the name editing part is a very irresponsible claim that could be potentially disastrous, because all it takes is one judge who doesn't understand the implications or simply doesn't care about them, and we're all screwed. The minute you take end-users right to do what they want away, you've crossed the line. There are some franchises that such a ruling could set a precendent where they'd be crippled just because a major buying factor would be gone and gamers wouldn't be nearly as interested. This could kill games like Maximum Football, PES, and BackBreaker.

I'm all for the NCAA being taken to task, but the editing angle of the claim puts me on the NCAA's side this time. If Keller wins, Football gamers lose again (how many devastating blows can we take?) and this time it may be a fatal blow for some franchises that rely on allowing the end-user to edit players.

oh men you just scare the hell out of me
is there a video gamer judge in the supreme court we can rely on ?
just in case ....