Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated (Now officially back)

[KSUowls]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

QBs I consider better than Brett Favre:

Joe Montana
Dan Marino
John Unitas
Bart Starr
Roger Staubach
Sammy Baugh
Sonny Jurgenson
Otto Graham
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady

Well that's 10. I'd say he's on par with Steve Young, Troy Aikman, Warren Moon, Bob Griese if I feel particularly homeristic. He just had too many bad seasons when a QB should be in his prime. The way the modern game is so biased towards offense, there's no excuse for a good QB to throw more INTs than TDs in multiple seasons, much less in his prime.

That is an um...interesting(?) list. One guy who threw more interceptions than touchdowns in his career, another who played in the 40s and 50s, a few guys who lost a lot of games, and half the list is comprised of guys whose TD to Int ratio was worse than Favre's.

Everyone wants to forget about every other stat Favre has put up and only look at the interceptions. It seems like when it comes to Favre everyone throws out the MVPs, total and come from behind wins, playoff performances, etc... and only look at the interceptions. Seems like a double standard imo.

As far as him throwing more interceptions than touchdowns, that happened 3 times:
1993: 2nd season as a starter (definitely not his "prime")
1999: A bad season that was not helped by a total lack of a running game and a terrible defense
2005: He was 36, definitely not what one would consider a prime year for athletics, and the team was just down right bad.

Only one of those seasons could be considered in his prime.

At 38 years old he led a team that was 4-12 the year before to 8-4 before tearing a muscle in his arm and finishing 9-7

Something else to think about. Consider all the wins he had and records he put up as a passer. Now consider how succesful he was when he lacked a running game for much of his career. From 1992-2008 he played on a team that was in the top 10 in rushing 3 times, in the top 15 an additional 2 times, and 20th or worse 10 times. He had some really good defenses early in his career, but from 1999 on his defenses had an average ranking of 16th in the NFL.



One last very interesting fact. Of your top 10 the only QBs who go further between interceptions (pass attempts) are Montana, marino, Brady and Manning.
The only one of the comparable QBs you gave who did that was Steve Young.

[CW McGraw]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

That is an um...interesting(?) list. One guy who threw more interceptions than touchdowns in his career, another who played in the 40s and 50s, and a few guys who lost a lot of games.

Baugh threw more INTs than TD because he played in the 30s and 40s. He was easily the greatest QB ever when he retired. In one season, he completed 70% of his passes; Sid Luckman, who had the second best completion percentage that year, only hit 53.9%. This record stood until Ken Anderson broke it while playing in a West Coast Offense.

I don't put much value into championships as a QB stat, but Otto Graham went to 10 straight championship games. Even if you discount his stats from the inferior AAFC, he still had a career QB rating of 78.2.

Sonny Jurgenson is easily the most underrated QB ever. He threw for more than 3000 yards five times along with more than 3500 yards and 30 TDs twice in an era where passing was discouraged. He did this all on the Redskins who were perennial laughing stocks before him and the Eagles who haven't accomplished jack squat since him.

If you think Favre is better than Unitas or Starr, you're just wrong. One invented the modern passing game and the other was the greatest post season QB ever.

[MattieShoes]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Some names off the top of my head, and in no particular order:
Montana, Young, Manning, Marino, Unitas, Staubach, Jurgesen, Tarkenton, Graham, Fouts, Tittle, Dawson, Namath, Aikman, Kelly, Everett, Bradshaw, Starr, Chandler, Elway, Moon... People will put Favre somewhere in the midst of these guys, and even if it ain't top 10, it's pretty darn good.

But I'm confused. Who was saying Favre is the greatest of all time? I think most people evaluate his career pretty fairly -- he was very good for a very, very long time. I don't hear people saying Favre in 95 was better than Marino in 84 or Manning in 04, etc. Preaching to the choir?

I just looked at PFR... they now have similarity scores, whose career is most similar. Favre's:

Dan Marino*, John Elway*, Fran Tarkenton*, Johnny Unitas*, Joe Montana*, Warren Moon*, Ken Anderson, Dan Fouts*, Peyton Manning, Terry Bradshaw*

Peyton isn't eligible for the hall, and Anderson would have easily made it if he had played on good quality teams.

[KSUowls]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Baugh threw more INTs than TD because he played in the 30s and 40s. He was easily the greatest QB ever when he retired. In one season, he completed 70% of his passes;

And 3 seasons completing less than 50% of his passes. He played in such a different era that you you can't compare him to even someone like Johnny U whose career started in the late 50s.

I don't put much value into championships as a QB stat, but Otto Graham went to 10 straight championship games. Even if you discount his stats from the inferior AAFC, he still had a career QB rating of 78.2.

Another guy from an era long past

Sonny Jurgenson is easily the most underrated QB ever. He threw for more than 3000 yards five times along with more than 3500 yards and 30 TDs twice in an era where passing was discouraged. He did this all on the Redskins who were perennial laughing stocks before him and the Eagles who haven't accomplished jack squat since him.

So you're impressed with stats when they occur in odd periods, but if someone is the most prolific passer in history we can write him off because a few guys are close? While the argument of he did it in this era is valid quarterbacks are measured by their wins and that isn't something he did often.

You want to say he's the most underrated QB ever? That's fine, but that doesn't qualify him to be put ahead of a guy who put up numbers and won games. Favre had teams that ranged from really good to really bad, but he still only had 1 losing season as a starter

If you think Favre is better than Unitas or Starr, you're just wrong. One invented the modern passing game and the other was the greatest post season QB ever.

Ignoring that infallible argument for a moment, can I go ahead and assume Unitis is the best QB ever? Afterall he invented the modern passing so no one else is better right?

[MattieShoes]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

For the post-season, I'd take Montana over the old greats.

Favre is the most prolific passer in history, but so were the guys he's mentioning. The rules for passing have changed so drastically, and the seasons were shorter... There's no way they could put up numbers like Favre's. Just not possible in that era. But they did do a lot better than their contemporaries, which is something Favre hasn't really done. Favre led the league in yards twice in 17 years, Graham did it 5 times in 10 years.

I'm not saying that Graham should be ranked above Favre, but discounting his accomplishments because it was in 40s and 50s is just as dumb as discounting Favre's because it was in the 90s and 00s. Graham also played DB and has 44 rushing TDs too.

One last thing... PFR now has an "advanced passing" section which works like IQ -- 100 is average, 115 would be about 84th percentile, think top 5 for a typical modern year... high 120s is usually close to best in the league. The best seasons ever are in the 140s, and Manning in 04 was 151. It's automatically era-adjusted.

Career passer rating "IQ":
Graham: 127
Young: 126
Montana: 123
Staubach: 122
Manning: 120
Dawson: 120
Brady: 117
Anderson: 115
Jurgensen: 114
Van Brocklin: 114
Starr: 113
Marino: 113
Tittle: 112
Unitas: 112
Kelly: 111
Favre: 109
Moon: 106
Aikman: 106
Elway: 105
Bradshaw: 105
Couch: 95
Grossman: 85

I could nitpick about the order but I think it gives a fairly good era-adjusted feel for the quality of the player.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Never understood how people can comment on guys they've never seen play before other than a few highlights and even those don't do any justice.

Anyway, I find it funny how people now want to start labeling him as a choker when they forget the fact that we wouldn't be where we were without him.

Mattie,SPTO, and KSU I agree with everything you've said but it's almost sad for people to try and almost belittle the things he accomplished just to build their case up. Favre, a choker...SMH but I guess I have no one to blame but BSPN for building the man up like he is/was the GOAT at all.

[CW McGraw]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

And 3 seasons completing less than 50% of his passes. He played in such a different era that you you can't compare him to even someone like Johnny U whose career started in the late 50s.


Another guy from an era long past

So you're impressed with stats when they occur in odd periods, but if someone is the most prolific passer in history we can write him off because a few guys are close? While the argument of he did it in this era is valid quarterbacks are measured by their wins and that isn't something he did often.

You want to say he's the most underrated QB ever? That's fine, but that doesn't qualify him to be put ahead of a guy who put up numbers and won games. Favre had teams that ranged from really good to really bad, but he still only had 1 losing season as a starter

Ignoring that infallible argument for a moment, can I go ahead and assume Unitis is the best QB ever? Afterall he invented the modern passing so no one else is better right?

I'm not discounting Favre just because he threw tons of picks. Bulk passing stats just aren't a great indicator of how good a player was. Efficiency stats like passer rating, completion percentage, and YPA tell a much more complete story of a QB's career. Favre doesn't rank well among most modern greats in any of those stats. I put Favre in my top 15 because he was good for a long time, but anyone that thinks he's the GOAT doesn't know what they're talking about.

What do you have against QBs from before 1970? Half of your arguments against the HOFers I listed boil down to "They're too old."

Oh, and I forgot Elway in my top 10.

[TheWatcher]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

QBs I consider better than Brett Favre:

Joe Montana
Dan Marino
John Unitas
Bart Starr
Roger Staubach
Sammy Baugh
Sonny Jurgenson
Otto Graham
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady.

I feel that Favre surpassed Marino. I'd argue that he was better than Jurgenson, too. But the rest of the guys I'd agree with.

Favre's biggest issue was bad decisions in big games. He blew so many playoff games. His last two seasons in fact ended because of bad interceptions. He should've been benched in that last game against the Dolphins last year.

[TheWatcher]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Never understood how people can comment on guys they've never seen play before other than a few highlights and even those don't do any justice..

There is a lot of game tape out there. The only great QB I've never seen an actual game of is Benny Friedman and that's only because they didn't shoot any of his games back then. Heck, I've seen games of Bob Waterfield and Norm Van Brocklin sharing time at QB for the Rams in 1949, lol.

[realultimatepower]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Names like Otto Graham, Baugh, etc. should not be included in this conversation, at least in the way its been talked about so far. While most of us have seen highlights or even game film of them, the style of play was night and day different in almost every aspect of the game, especially with Baugh considering he played pre-World War II. Also of note is integration, which did not happen in the NFL until 1946, but teams weren't required to sign black players until 1962!

IMO There should be two brands of the list, those after the merger and those before the merger. If a guy was playing during the timeframe of the merger, they get included in the "after" list, so Namath, Starr, etc, would be considered for the "modern" list. Football is not like baseball. Baseball has remained relatively the same game outside of equipment and the biology of the athlete. Football has changed almost immeasurably since the days of Graham/Baugh and the modern day game.

Thats not to say none of those guys werent great, but c'mon. If everyone is the same age and I have one play from a modern playbook, I'd rather have Brett Favre throwing than Graham or Baugh. In regards to Unitas, he played virtually the same amount of time as Brett, and has a worse TD-INT ratio and a worse QB rating. Its also arguable that Unitas had better teams around him during his heyday, or at least didn't have the same amount of competition.

Its completely unfair to those players to compare them to modern day players because of how different the game was then. The passing game was almost a secondary thought!

[ClemsonTiger81]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

what are you basing "he's overrated" off of? He is overrated for the hall of fame? he is overrated to be in the top 10 qb's of all time. I am sorry but this just sound like a kick bret favre in the balls thread. Packers fans...you guys can be politically correct all you want but the fact is, this coming from a Saints fan...Your franchise would not have been s--t for the past 20 years if not for #4. Who was your qb before him....milk-cow-ski? majowski? madden-nowski? yeah....the greatest thing to ever happen to the city of Green Bay post Lombardi era was the the Falcons making that trade. Now let's b--ch and complain because he made us "good?" wow, i have seen it all now. I would glady take the piece of crap that Bret Favre is and was, all of his INTS. all of his bad decisions, all of playoff meltdowns...for just that ONE!!! Super Bowl title in 1996. Some people are never satisfied.

[Kriech23]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

It's not like Favre played when Green Bay were a powerhouse. He made Green Bay what it is today. He didn't have a lot of talent around him. His receivers weren't that good. His defense was mediocre. I love how everyone blames Brett for the losses. But when they win it's not because of the 85 yard touchdown pass when time expires. It's because the defense made there first stop of the game at the 50 yard line. It baffles me how some people don't have him in their top 15. Are you freakin' kiddin' me! Let the haters keep on hating...

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

What Packer Fans were never satisfied? Who's bitching and complaining about having him? Hell, did you even read the thread at all?

[dragon4ever]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Over the last 11 years Favre's failures, particularly in the postseason, have been largely overlooked and virtually ignored. Recently, I read a B/R ranking on the greatest quarterbacks of all-time. Favre placed second on this list. I found this ranking to be absurd. I believe that there are two active quarterbacks with much more superior careers than Brett Favre (Manning and Brady).

Favre has a 12-10 career postseason record, including a Super Bowl ring (1996) and another Super Bowl appearance (1997). But in the last 11 years, Favre has won only three of his nine postseason starts. In a sport where the blame for a loss is placed on one position (quarterback) more frequently than any other sport, Favre's performances in January are inexcusable.

Favre has thrown for the second most passing yards and the second most passing touchdowns in NFL playoff history. But he has also lost more games and thrown more playoff interceptions than any other quarterback.

Favre got the job done during the regular season as a starting quarterback. He has won 167 games, the most among quarterbacks. He ranks first all-time in touchdown passes, passing yards, completions, and attempts.

But he also holds one of the more dubious records in NFL history: He has thrown over 300 interceptions in his career—328 if one counts the postseason. Combined with his 165 fumbles (71 lost), Favre has committed 399 turnovers in his NFL career—an average of slightly over 22 per season.

By comparison, Vinny Testaverde, a man who might as well have been known as Mr. Turnover, turned the ball over about 21 times per season. Eli Manning, who despite his Super Bowl ring has struggled in his short career, has turned the ball over 18 times per season. Rex Grossman, who is one of the more disgusting quarterbacks to ever play in the NFL, has averaged about 18 turnovers per season.

There is no way to hide or ignore this statistic. Not turning the ball over is one of the most important, if not the most important jobs of an NFL quarterback. Favre has struggled in this category. Five times in his career, Brett Favre has committed more turnovers than he has thrown touchdown passes. In 2005, he turned in one of the more atrocious seasons by a quarterback in recent memory, tossing 29 interceptions while losing seven fumbles, for an NFL-high 36 turnovers in 16 games.

Supporters of Brett Favre will argue that he had very few, if any, superstar teammates. I will agree with this—to an extent. The 1996 Super Bowl champion Packers sported the number one defense in the NFL, led by Reggie White, LeRoy Butler, and Darren Sharper. Sterling Sharpe is, in my opinion, the most underrated wide receiver in NFL history, and would have been a Hall of Famer if not for his neck injury. However, that was about it.

He had Antonio Freeman, William Henderson, Dorsey Levens, Ahman Green, Robert Brooks, Javon Walker, and Donald Driver. These were all very good players, but none would be considered one of the best players in the NFL. Having a wide receiver like Jerry Rice or Marvin Harrison would have helped Favre complete more passes and throw more touchdown passes, but he would still be the king of turnovers.

Too many of his moments have been larger than life, and frankly overrated. He is given far too much credit for having fun and celebrating. He is a likeable guy and people want to view him as one of the three or four greatest quarterbacks to ever play the game.

Here is a list of 10 QB's that I think are better than Brett Favre:

Joe Montana
Otto Graham
John Elway
Bart Starr
Johnny Unitas
Roger Staubauch
Steve Young
Dan Marino
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady

[ClemsonTiger81]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

What Packer Fans were never satisfied? Who's bitching and complaining about having him? Hell, did you even read the thread at all?

Yeah, i have read the thread. And the fact that someone can call someone who has played at a high level for 17 season "overrated" I am sorry. but that is just plain stupid. Bret Favre is a top 10 QB of all time. period. end of discussion. Overrated is the last word that comes to mind when i think of him.