Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated (Now officially back)

[N51_rob]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Didn't read all of this, just the title. I don't see how Brett Farve can be overrated. Yes the last 4 years he has done some damage to his image (I know it has IMO) but dude was a gamer for the majority of his career and lifted a down-trodden franchise, bringing the Lombardi trophy back to titletown. He did a lot of good things for Green Bay Packer football. In 5 years when his number is retired and he is going into the HOF all of these past 2 or 3 seasons will be forgotten and forgiven.

[GHUGHES]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Funny this thread came up I was just telling my friend that if any other QB made some of the passes over the years that Favre has made they would be playing in NFL EUROPE.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Favre has a 12-10 career postseason record, including a Super Bowl ring (1996) and another Super Bowl appearance (1997). But in the last 11 years, Favre has won only three of his nine postseason starts. In a sport where the blame for a loss is placed on one position (quarterback) more frequently than any other sport, Favre's performances in January are inexcusable.

Yes they are inexcusable. But again, to place all the blame on Favre itself and absolutely ridiculous and short sighted.

Supporters of Brett Favre will argue that he had very few, if any, superstar teammates. I will agree with this—to an extent. The 1996 Super Bowl champion Packers sported the number one defense in the NFL, led by Reggie White, LeRoy Butler, and Darren Sharper. Sterling Sharpe is, in my opinion, the most underrated wide receiver in NFL history, and would have been a Hall of Famer if not for his neck injury. However, that was about it.

So in one sentence you're saying he was the King of Turnovers but then go on to say that if he had a WR like Jerry Rice or Marvin Harrison, his numbers would've been better but he would still be King of Turnovers? How so? One could say that if he had a legit threat his entire career like Peyton has had the benefit of having, his TO numbers would've been down.

Too many of his moments have been larger than life, and frankly overrated. He is given far too much credit for having fun and celebrating.

Sounds like you watch too much BSPN.

Again, because people seem to refuse to get this thru their head, anybody that wants to say:

-Favre is at fault for all the Packers' playoff losses
-Is a Choker
-Overrated(based on BSPN Hype and not his actual production)

Is being really short sighted and just looking for a reason to belittle everything he's done on the field. BTW, I am a Packer fan first and ALWAYS and thanks Favre for everything he's done for us ON THE FIELD, but like someone else said, "overrated" is the last word that comes to mind when I think of Favre.

[KSUowls]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

I'm not discounting Favre just because he threw tons of picks. Bulk passing stats just aren't a great indicator of how good a player was. Efficiency stats like passer rating, completion percentage, and YPA tell a much more complete story of a QB's career. Favre doesn't rank well among most modern greats in any of those stats. I put Favre in my top 15 because he was good for a long time, but anyone that thinks he's the GOAT doesn't know what they're talking about.

What do you have against QBs from before 1970? Half of your arguments against the HOFers I listed boil down to "They're too old."

Oh, and I forgot Elway in my top 10.

Yeah I thought the omission of Elway was odd. My argument against old QBs is if their careers ended before the first superbowl was played.

I agree that bulk stats aren't the only thing to consider, but you can't argue results and Favre had them. More wins than any other starting QB ever, partially a product of him playing in so many games, and a .628 winning percentage that nets him at #14 with 3 current players ahead of him and Steve Young who had a very short career.

When he got hurt he played and was still able to keep his teams competitive. Other guys get got hurt, sat out and the teams went nowhere.

[CW McGraw]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Names like Otto Graham, Baugh, etc. should not be included in this conversation, at least in the way its been talked about so far. While most of us have seen highlights or even game film of them, the style of play was night and day different in almost every aspect of the game, especially with Baugh considering he played pre-World War II. Also of note is integration, which did not happen in the NFL until 1946, but teams weren't required to sign black players until 1962!

IMO There should be two brands of the list, those after the merger and those before the merger. If a guy was playing during the timeframe of the merger, they get included in the "after" list, so Namath, Starr, etc, would be considered for the "modern" list. Football is not like baseball. Baseball has remained relatively the same game outside of equipment and the biology of the athlete. Football has changed almost immeasurably since the days of Graham/Baugh and the modern day game.

Thats not to say none of those guys werent great, but c'mon. If everyone is the same age and I have one play from a modern playbook, I'd rather have Brett Favre throwing than Graham or Baugh. In regards to Unitas, he played virtually the same amount of time as Brett, and has a worse TD-INT ratio and a worse QB rating. Its also arguable that Unitas had better teams around him during his heyday, or at least didn't have the same amount of competition.

Its completely unfair to those players to compare them to modern day players because of how different the game was then. The passing game was almost a secondary thought!

If I'm not allowed to bring up QBs from before 1970, is this really even a discussion of the best all time? If you think the QB position was invented in 1970 then is then obviosly Favre is top 10.

Yeah I thought the omission of Elway was odd. My argument against old QBs is if their careers ended before the first superbowl was played.

I agree that bulk stats aren't the only thing to consider, but you can't argue results and Favre had them. More wins than any other starting QB ever, partially a product of him playing in so many games, and a .628 winning percentage that nets him at #14 with 3 current players ahead of him and Steve Young who had a very short career.

When he got hurt he played and was still able to keep his teams competitive. Other guys get got hurt, sat out and the teams went nowhere.

Favre played longer than any QB ever. He should have won more games than any QB. I don't consider wins a QB statistic, nor would having another statistic based off how long he played convince me that he was the GOAT.

I don't think it's unfair to call Brett Favre overrated. He's rated extremely high by the media and has more knocks on him than most HOF QBs.

[realultimatepower]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Here is a list of 10 QB's that I think are better than Brett Favre:

Joe Montana
Otto Graham
John Elway
Bart Starr
Johnny Unitas
Roger Staubauch
Steve Young
Dan Marino
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady

Johnny Unitas had 7 seasons where he threw more INTs than TDs. They played virtually the same amount of seasons (Unitas' 17 to Favre's 18).

In contrast, Unitas has 253 TDs in that amount of time, Favre has 468, 200+ more than Unitas, 25,000 more yards, a QB rating 8 points better, and fumbles weren't recorded as a stat back then, so who knows. Favre threw 70 more INTs over his career, but considering he threw 200 more TDs, its basically a wash. Brett's completion percentage is also over 60%, compared to Unitas' which is 54% + Brett's YPP is 7!

Unitas also played in an era where the competition was nowhere near the depth and level that it is now. The fact that Favre holds the NFL Ironman record at QB this day in age is huge.

Yet you have Unitas ranked higher than Favre? Based on what? Statistically, its not even close. When you compare teams and what they had around them, some of those Colts teams are amongst the all time teams in terms of HOF talent. Brett did not have that for the majority of his career.

If you're going to include players who played the majority of their career pre-merger, there is just no contest.

Otto Graham shouldn't even be included in the discussion. Completely different eras and completely different games for that matter. He also threw more INTs than TDs over his career.

[realultimatepower]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

If I'm not allowed to bring up QBs from before 1970, is this really even a discussion of the best all time? If you think the QB position was invented in 1970 then is then obviosly Favre is top 10.

There is a difference between the modern game and the game when guys like Otto Graham and Sammy Baugh were in their prime. The forward pass was nowhere even close to the staple of the game then as it is now.

And yes, I definitely include Favre in my top ten...

1. Montana
2. Elway
3. Marino
4. Manning
5. Favre
6. Bradshaw
7. Staubach
8. Brady
9. Steve Young
10. Unitas

I have Jim Kelly sitting just on the outside and Manning will go down as the best ever before he's done most likely.

[KSUowls]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Over the last 11 years Favre's failures, particularly in the postseason, have been largely overlooked and virtually ignored. Recently, I read a B/R ranking on the greatest quarterbacks of all-time. Favre placed second on this list. I found this ranking to be absurd. I believe that there are two active quarterbacks with much more superior careers than Brett Favre (Manning and Brady).

Favre has a 12-10 career postseason record, including a Super Bowl ring (1996) and another Super Bowl appearance (1997). But in the last 11 years, Favre has won only three of his nine postseason starts. In a sport where the blame for a loss is placed on one position (quarterback) more frequently than any other sport, Favre's performances in January are inexcusable.

Favre has thrown for the second most passing yards and the second most passing touchdowns in NFL playoff history. But he has also lost more games and thrown more playoff interceptions than any other quarterback.

Favre got the job done during the regular season as a starting quarterback. He has won 167 games, the most among quarterbacks. He ranks first all-time in touchdown passes, passing yards, completions, and attempts.

I already posted this but it bares repeating. Favre had 2 really bad playoff games that that spiked his interception totals. In his other 20 games in the post season he was 35 Tds against 18 interceptions.

I find the Peyton Manning argument particularly ironic, that and the cliam that Favre was a regular season QB. Did you know that even including those 2 horrific games Favre had (10 interceptions) he still has a better TD:Int ratio than manning does in the playoffs. Not to mention Manning actually has a losing record in the post season (not all his fault, but the one season they did something in the post season they won almost in spite of him.)


Favre was 12-10 in the post season, but is it really his fault when the team in 3-8 in those games when the offense fails to score at least 25 points.

But he also holds one of the more dubious records in NFL history: He has thrown over 300 interceptions in his career—328 if one counts the postseason. Combined with his 165 fumbles (71 lost), Favre has committed 399 turnovers in his NFL career—an average of slightly over 22 per season.

There is no way to hide or ignore this statistic. Not turning the ball over is one of the most important, if not the most important jobs of an NFL quarterback. Favre has struggled in this category. Five times in his career, Brett Favre has committed more turnovers than he has thrown touchdown passes. In 2005, he turned in one of the more atrocious seasons by a quarterback in recent memory, tossing 29 interceptions while losing seven fumbles, for an NFL-high 36 turnovers in 16 games.

The interception records are a little misleading because he threw so many passes. He averaged an interception every 30 attempts. By comparison Dan Marino and John Elway were at an interception every 32 and 33 attempts respectively.

Having a wide receiver like Jerry Rice or Marvin Harrison would have helped Favre complete more passes and throw more touchdown passes, but he would still be the king of turnovers.

Maybe. Having those better receivers would very likely drop the turnovers quite a bit. A dominant receiver is better at getting open (so less balls being forced in) and makes it easier for other guys to get open.

Now being a "gunslinger" he will always be more susceptible to the interceptions but if guys are getting open more often then it's less likely he'll try and fit a ball between 2-3 defenders.

[KSUowls]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Favre played longer than any QB ever. He should have won more games than any QB. I don't consider wins a QB statistic, nor would having another statistic based off how long he played convince me that he was the GOAT.

I don't think it's unfair to call Brett Favre overrated. He's rated extremely high by the media and has more knocks on him than most HOF QBs.

Well first I, nor do I think anyone else here, has said he is the GOAT. I consider wins to be a very telling statistic. It means he got the job done. Now you are right that he played longer, which is why I also gave his winning percentage a stat that doesn't take into account longevity.

The only knock on Favre was he turned the ball over. Other than that he made big time plays, was great in the clutch, and he won games. He never had a good running game, didn't know what it was like to not have to put up 30 points to win outside of his first 5 years or so, but he still won with great efficiency.

Have there been better modern era quarterbacks? I think so, but it's a very short list.

[ClemsonTiger81]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

He is the best QB of the 90's with arguments from only Young or Elway. Elway did not win MVPs like Favre did nor did Young. I give him the edge over both by a little. Favre has a many Super Bowl wins as Young as a starter and of course lost to Elway head to head which hurts. In the 2000's is where I think most people are thinking Favre lost his touch. And as everyone knows you are only as good as your last game. The old cliche. Fine. Did Favre hurt his legacy by unretiring? Yes. Did he hurt it by playing for the Jets. Maybe...he was injured and at one point they were 8-3 and tied for the division. They also knocked off unbeaten Tennessee. There are so many arguments/counter-arguments for where he belongs on the all time list. If he retired in 2002 or 2003 we would be Top 10 without a doubt. This is taking the the 6 INT game against the Eagles out as well as the 4th and 26th. Also takes out his only losing season (2005). Remember he is now getting ancient in terms of QB age if we continue on past 2005 and he still somehow manages to lead one loast push by the Packers in 2007, a #2 seed in the playoffs and thanks to Dallas choking they themselves got the chance to choke at home. I just cannot see how people cannot have him in the all-time top 10. Is he the best ever....hell no. But he is one of the best ever for sure.

[jth1331]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

QBs I consider better than Brett Favre:

Joe Montana
Dan Marino
John Unitas
Bart Starr
Roger Staubach
Sammy Baugh
Sonny Jurgenson
Otto Graham
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady

I'd say it is an absolute travesty you didn't include John Elway, but I saw you mentioned him later that you "forgot" him.
Statistics aren't the end all for evaluating talent. For instance, Elway's offense that he had to work with in the 80's was average at best. The defense and Elway took those Bronco teams to the playoffs and Super Bowls.

As for Favre, I think he is overrated in best QB of all time discussions. He is high on the list, but definitely not the best ever.

[CW McGraw]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

Well first I, nor do I think anyone else here, has said he is the GOAT. I consider wins to be a very telling statistic. It means he got the job done. Now you are right that he played longer, which is why I also gave his winning percentage a stat that doesn't take into account longevity.

The only knock on Favre was he turned the ball over. Other than that he made big time plays, was great in the clutch, and he won games. He never had a good running game, didn't know what it was like to not have to put up 30 points to win outside of his first 5 years or so, but he still won with great efficiency.

Have there been better modern era quarterbacks? I think so, but it's a very short list.

That's just not true. Ahman Green ran for nearly 2000 yards one season. IIRC, Favre threw six picks when they made it to the playoffs that year. Green ran for 1000 yards six times while playing with Favre. Dorsey Levens was elite for a period. It's true he never had an all time great RB, but what HOFer other than Aikman did? The Packers didn't always have an elite running game, but no team will have one for 17 straight seasons.

The QB you are describing is Dan Marino. In Marino's entire career, he played with one 1000 yard rusher: Karim Abdul Jabbar. You throw around Favre's winning percentage as a measure of his greatness, but Marino won around the same percentage of games while playing on vastly inferior teams.

Johnny Unitas had 7 seasons where he threw more INTs than TDs. They played virtually the same amount of seasons (Unitas' 17 to Favre's 18).

In contrast, Unitas has 253 TDs in that amount of time, Favre has 468, 200+ more than Unitas, 25,000 more yards, a QB rating 8 points better, and fumbles weren't recorded as a stat back then, so who knows. Favre threw 70 more INTs over his career, but considering he threw 200 more TDs, its basically a wash. Brett's completion percentage is also over 60%, compared to Unitas' which is 54% + Brett's YPP is 7!

Unitas also played in an era where the competition was nowhere near the depth and level that it is now. The fact that Favre holds the NFL Ironman record at QB this day in age is huge.

Yet you have Unitas ranked higher than Favre? Based on what? Statistically, its not even close. When you compare teams and what they had around them, some of those Colts teams are amongst the all time teams in terms of HOF talent. Brett did not have that for the majority of his career.

If you're holding Unitas's stats to modern standards, they obviously won't look as good, but that's the worst way to compare QBs from different eras. Do you not realize how tough it was to pass in Unitas's era? Offensive linemen couldn't use their hands to block and WRs could be mauled anywhere on the field. Comparing bulk passing stats from QBs that played 50 years apart is pointless. Considering that Unitas played in an era where passing was much more difficult, the fact that his passer rating is only 8 points lower than the Great Brett Favre tells you just how great Unitas was, or conversely, how mistake prone Favre was.

[KSUowls]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

That's just not true. Ahman Green ran for nearly 2000 yards one season. IIRC, Favre threw six picks when they made it to the playoffs that year. Green ran for 1000 yards six times while playing with Favre. Dorsey Levens was elite for a period. It's true he never had an all time great RB, but what HOFer other than Aikman did? The Packers didn't always have an elite running game, but no team will have one for 17 straight seasons.

It's not about having an HoF at RB, it's about having a good ground game. These are the NFL rankings for Green Bay's/NYJ rushing offense
21, 22, 19, 26, 11, 12, 25, 21, 23, 21, 12, 3, 10, 30, 23, 21, 9

That works out to be an average finish of 18, and 10 of those seasons they were outside of the top 20.

The QB you are describing is Dan Marino. In Marino's entire career, he played with one 1000 yard rusher: Karim Abdul Jabbar. You throw around Favre's winning percentage as a measure of his greatness, but Marino won around the same percentage of games while playing on vastly inferior teams.

Favre's career win % is .628
Marino's is .613

I won't get into the Favre vs. Marino debate, but from a passing/rushing offense and defensive perspective there was little difference between the Green Bay and Miami teams.

If you're holding Unitas's stats to modern standards, they obviously won't look as good, but that's the worst way to compare QBs from different eras. Do you not realize how tough it was to pass in Unitas's era? Offensive linemen couldn't use their hands to block and WRs could be mauled anywhere on the field. Comparing bulk passing stats from QBs that played 50 years apart is pointless. Considering that Unitas played in an era where passing was much more difficult, the fact that his passer rating is only 8 points lower than the Great Brett Favre tells you just how great Unitas was, or conversely, how mistake prone Favre was.

I didn't so much want to compare Unitas' stats to Favre only to point out the fallacy I found one of your comments. Basically you said that Unitas was better because he invented the modern passing game.

However, I will say the stats I did put up certainly seem to be biased toward Favre and the modern generation. Part of the reason its so hard to compare players from different eras.

[marshallfever]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

I had no clue he had 3 consecutive MVP titles. that right there spells HALL OF FAME. Wether you like it or not, having awesome stats tends to say something. He has records that probably won't be broken for years to come, he was an awesome QB. I haven't been into football long, probably around 8 years now, but he's an awesome QB in my eyes even though i can't stand the guy

[steelcurtain311]

Re: Brett Favre=Mr. Overrated

I agree completely with how overrated Favre is. He gets away with things that other QB's would get drilled over. Instead the media just goes "Oh it's just Brett having fun! What a guy!! Only Brett Favre!!!" The fact is, he would consistently make some of the dumbest throws and decisions I've ever seen any QB make. He would kill his team at times with the dumb INT's. He's the most overrated QB ever.