Franchise Player?

[steelcurtain311]

Re: Franchise Player?

IMO I don't think Roethlisberger is a good QB for last year he threw 15 Int's an 17 Touchdowns! that isn't good! also I think there Defense carries there team too much!

Most of his INT's last year came when he was playing hurt. As a matter of fact, every bad span of his career when it comes to INT's has been due to playing when he shouldn't have been. You can always tell when it's bad enough to affect his play and when it isn't, and examples last year would be the Colts and Giants games for him. He didn't look right in either game.

Stats mean **** when it comes to a guy like Ben, because he's not in to putting up stats. He will when he has to, but he wants to win games. Which means handing it off sometimes instead of trying to force throws. Plus factor in that he plays behind one of the worst lines in football. Lets see how good Peyton or Brees TD/INT numbers are playing with Willie Colon as a starter.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Franchise Player?

I still can't believe that man said Matt Ryan is a top 5 QB based on just MAKING the playoffs despite the fact that he had a very, very average season.

[CW McGraw]

Re: Franchise Player?

Most of his INT's last year came when he was playing hurt. As a matter of fact, every bad span of his career when it comes to INT's has been due to playing when he shouldn't have been. You can always tell when it's bad enough to affect his play and when it isn't, and examples last year would be the Colts and Giants games for him. He didn't look right in either game.

Stats mean **** when it comes to a guy like Ben, because he's not in to putting up stats. He will when he has to, but he wants to win games. Which means handing it off sometimes instead of trying to force throws. Plus factor in that he plays behind one of the worst lines in football. Lets see how good Peyton or Brees TD/INT numbers are playing with Willie Colon as a starter.

In fairness to the Steelers atrocious offensive line, Ben holding onto the ball for as long as he does in attempt to make plays certainly doesn't help. Great QBs make their talent look better than they actually are. It's what seperates Tom Brady from Matt Cassell. Cassell was getting sacked every other play behind the same line that the year before helped set records. Ben's a top five QB and has a good chance at making the HOF if he doesn't get killed in five years, but he shares some of the blame for him constantly getting sacked.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: Franchise Player?

I know he does, but people seriously exaggerate that. The majority of his sacks are happening because there's people in his face instantly. On a lot of plays he's got pressure from all sides before he can even get set. There isn't a single good talent on his line. I don't want to hear a Peyton or Brady would make them better, because they wouldn't. They'd just take a beating, the same way, if not worse than Ben. Both of them have had guys that are at least capable of being good-great linemen, right now, Ben does not.

Could he get the ball out faster on some plays? Yeah, but that's probably going to lead to more INT's. Bruce Arians really sucks, it's partly on him too.

[JaBronie247]

Re: Franchise Player?

Would you guys start a Franchise with a veteran player? or do you just want a young guy that can stay longer?

[KG]

Re: Franchise Player?

Would you guys start a Franchise with a veteran player? or do you just want a young guy that can stay longer?

The only young position I would go with would be OL. QB is too much of a gamble and I don't see any really young defensive players that I'd pick outisde of Willis.

[JBH3]

Re: Franchise Player?

He's talented, but not top 5. Take away Fitzgerald (or look at his success in New York or St. Louis towards the end) and he's just good.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Warner was 5-4 as the QB of the Giants. Then he got injured and Eli Manning sucked it up (1-6). The Giants were awful, not Warner.

That team was also a running team as the leading receiver on the 2004 Giants, the ONLY YEAR WARNER QB'd them, was Jeremy Shockey w/ a meazly 61 grabs. 2nd on the team was sneaky Tiki w/ 52 grabs. The Giants two leading receivers were NOT even Wide Receivers.

His 2nd to last year in St. Louis (2002) was marred by injury, and he could never get on track. He was w/o starting LT Orlando Pace after wk3, and Warner's season was over by wk6. This has been his only horrible year in his career given he had an above-avg/competing team.

As far as Arizona goes, he has never posted a QB rating less than an 86. His first three years was under Dennis Green who went 16-32 as the headcoach.

Wisenhunt is hired in 2007 goes 8-8, and the following year has Zona playing in the Superbowl.

Why? Because he's a coach who knows how to vertically attack, and take advantage of Warner's strengths.

Keep finding excuses to discredit legit top 5 Quarterbacks...

Really.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Franchise Player?

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Warner was 5-4 as the QB of the Giants. Then he got injured and Eli Manning sucked it up (1-6). The Giants were awful, not Warner.

That team was also a running team as the leading receiver on the 2004 Giants, the ONLY YEAR WARNER QB'd them, was Jeremy Shockey w/ a meazly 61 grabs. 2nd on the team was sneaky Tiki w/ 52 grabs. The Giants two leading receivers were NOT even Wide Receivers.

His 2nd to last year in St. Louis (2002) was marred by injury, and he could never get on track. He was w/o starting LT Orlando Pace after wk3, and Warner's season was over by wk6. This has been his only horrible year in his career given he had an above-avg/competing team.

As far as Arizona goes, he has never posted a QB rating less than an 86. His first three years was under Dennis Green who went 16-32 as the headcoach.

Wisenhunt is hired in 2007 goes 8-8, and the following year has Zona playing in the Superbowl.

Why? Because he's a coach who knows how to vertically attack, and take advantage of Warner's strengths.

Really.

Sure, he went 5-4, but he also threw 6 TDs to 4 picks. He gets to Arizona, plays five games his second year there, and throws the same amount of touchdowns (without Whisenhunt). Gee, I wonder why that was? As for Eli, he was expected to perform so well, considering it was his rookie season and all.

In 2002, those first three weeks with Pace (don't know what quarter that he went out in) he threw one touchdown and seven interceptions with Torry Holt, Marshall Faulk, and Isaac Bruce catching passes. Compared to Warner's three weeks with Pace & co., Bulger (a rookie) was more than outstanding with the same team, which effectively led to Warner being run out of St. Louis.

Warner has been the beneficiary of being on some of the most talented offenses of the past 15 years, with two-three guys that may go into the Hall of Fame in St. Louis and now playing with All-Pro caliber receivers in Arizona. As a result, he has some good stats, the passing stats of which are made better by the fact that he replaces his interceptions with fumbles.

[wwharton]

Re: Franchise Player?

Would you guys start a Franchise with a veteran player? or do you just want a young guy that can stay longer?

I think your pick of Cassell is pretty nuts but commend you for continuing to keep the thread on topic.

If we're going with the 3 options you gave (QB/RB/WR) then I think QB is the only option worth starting a team with, and if you're going to use youth as a big factor then I'd take Rivers, Cutler, Big Ben, Rodgers, Ryan, Flacco all before I'd take Cassell (and probably forgetting some people).

But yes, if I had to take one of those 3, I'd take someone with a little seasoning. I think I'd go with Brees. He's not so old that he couldn't hold the new team down for a few years while we get everything else up to speed. We've seen that he can go to a new offensive system and adapt pretty quickly. We know that he can make players around him better.

If we're opening it up across the board I'd go with one of the young OL/DL players already mentioned. Gotta be good in the trenches.

[wwharton]

Re: Franchise Player?

Sure, he went 5-4, but he also threw 6 TDs to 4 picks. He gets to Arizona, plays five games his second year there, and throws the same amount of touchdowns (without Whisenhunt). Gee, I wonder why that was? As for Eli, he was expected to perform so well, considering it was his rookie season and all.

In 2002, those first three weeks with Pace (don't know what quarter that he went out in) he threw one touchdown and seven interceptions with Torry Holt, Marshall Faulk, and Isaac Bruce catching passes. Compared to Warner's three weeks with Pace & co., Bulger (a rookie) was more than outstanding with the same team, which effectively led to Warner being run out of St. Louis.

Warner has been the beneficiary of being on some of the most talented offenses of the past 15 years, with two-three guys that may go into the Hall of Fame in St. Louis and now playing with All-Pro caliber receivers in Arizona. As a result, he has some good stats, the passing stats of which are made better by the fact that he replaces his interceptions with fumbles.

Honestly if you're going to make all of these "excuses" about Warner then I don't see how you're talking up Big Ben. He's had one of the best defenses every year in the league and one of the best running games almost every year. When asked to pass more than 25 or so times he's looked average at best... and that may be being nice. You sound convinced that Big Ben on the Cards would've been as good, if not better than Warner. There's nothing to say that's true. You take the injury plagued seasons and hold them against Warner but Ben's motorcycle accident season was not top 5 QB by any stretch of the imagination.

And I'm not trying to put down Ben, just saying you're clearly being selective in what you bring up to judge QBs... and I'm just picking one example out of the many in this thread.

[JBH3]

Re: Franchise Player?

Sure, he went 5-4, but he also threw 6 TDs to 4 picks. He gets to Arizona, plays five games his second year there, and throws the same amount of touchdowns (without Whisenhunt). Gee, I wonder why that was? As for Eli, he was expected to perform so well, considering it was his rookie season and all.

You just glaze over the fact he goes 5-4 and has only 6 TDs and 4 INTs without realizing he was sacked THIRTY-NINE TIMES IN 9 STARTS w/ the Giants.

David Garrard, who was missing at least two starters on his O-Line the entire year, was sacked 42 times in his 16 starts in 2008. That was the 3rd highest total in all of 2008. So that lets you know how horrible Warner's O-Line was, and why he couldn't play because he was getting demolished.

Factor in the only viable down-field threat being Amani Toomer, and you CAN'T have a passing game AT ALL. Success was predicated on how well Tiki could run week to week, if he could be found in the flats, and whether or not Shockey was getting double teamed.

With all that knowledge it actually makes 6 TDs to only 4 INTs look pretty good, and shows that Warner could protect the ball and did not force passes. Sure he fumbled... but any QB would fumble at a high rate when having been sacked 39 times through 9 starts.

In 2002, those first three weeks with Pace (don't know what quarter that he went out in) he threw one touchdown and seven interceptions with Torry Holt, Marshall Faulk, and Isaac Bruce catching passes. Compared to Warner's three weeks with Pace & co., Bulger (a rookie) was more than outstanding with the same team, which effectively led to Warner being run out of St. Louis.

Warner has been the beneficiary of being on some of the most talented offenses of the past 15 years, with two-three guys that may go into the Hall of Fame in St. Louis and now playing with All-Pro caliber receivers in Arizona. As a result, he has some good stats, the passing stats of which are made better by the fact that he replaces his interceptions with fumbles.

I already said there is no defending Warner's 2nd to last yr w/ STL. Albeit...we truly don't know how many of his INTs actually came from a poor route or like circumstance.

Every QB is the beneficiary of something dude.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Franchise Player?

Honestly if you're going to make all of these "excuses" about Warner then I don't see how you're talking up Big Ben. He's had one of the best defenses every year in the league and one of the best running games almost every year. When asked to pass more than 25 or so times he's looked average at best... and that may be being nice. You sound convinced that Big Ben on the Cards would've been as good, if not better than Warner. There's nothing to say that's true. You take the injury plagued seasons and hold them against Warner but Ben's motorcycle accident season was not top 5 QB by any stretch of the imagination.

And I'm not trying to put down Ben, just saying you're clearly being selective in what you bring up to judge QBs... and I'm just picking one example out of the many in this thread.

Maybe you're right. But I think there's a big difference in how Ben's been able to take his teams all the way to the Super Bowl and win it vs. Warner, who was unable to finish the deal in 2001 or 2008 with a better offense around him. In his Super Bowl years, Ben has thrown ten touchdowns to four interceptions in six games. That's against the best teams in the NFL that year on both occasions. Finally, I don't think the Steelers would have won last year's Super Bowl without Roethlisberger. He also passed 30 or more times in two of his three playoff starts last year and eight times in the regular season. Of those ten games, they won eight, so I don't see why he's so bad when the pressure's on.

You just glaze over the fact he goes 5-4 and has only 6 TDs and 4 INTs without realizing he was sacked THIRTY-NINE TIMES IN 9 STARTS w/ the Giants.

David Garrard, who was missing at least two starters on his O-Line the entire year, was sacked 42 times in his 16 starts in 2008. That was the 3rd highest total in all of 2008. So that lets you know how horrible Warner's O-Line was, and why he couldn't play because he was getting demolished.

Factor in the only viable down-field threat being Amani Toomer, and you CAN'T have a passing game AT ALL. Success was predicated on how well Tiki could run week to week, if he could be found in the flats, and whether or not Shockey was getting double teamed.

With all that knowledge it actually makes 6 TDs to only 4 INTs look pretty good, and shows that Warner could protect the ball and did not force passes. Sure he fumbled... but any QB would fumble at a high rate when having been sacked 39 times through 9 starts.

Being sacked sucks, which is another reason why I rate Roethlisberger so highly. He was the second-most sacked quarterback in the league last year; the offensive line in front of him gave up only three less sacks than that Giants offensive line in 2004. Their running back situation was also up in air for different parts of the season. His season didn't end all that poorly, though.

I already said there is no defending Warner's 2nd to last yr w/ STL. Albeit...we truly don't know how many of his INTs actually came from a poor route or like circumstance.

Every QB is the beneficiary of something dude.

Ah my bad. But your last statement is definitely right. I'm not going to say that I'm not completely crazy or stupid in my opinions, I'm just trying to tell you why I have them. Talking about this stuff is like a drug for me as the season's about to start.

[CW McGraw]

Re: Franchise Player?

Maybe you're right. But I think there's a big difference in how Ben's been able to take his teams all the way to the Super Bowl and win it vs. Warner, who was unable to finish the deal in 2001 or 2008 with a better offense around him.

Warner did his job when the game was on the line in his two SB losses. He brought the Cards back only to watch Ben drive down the field and score with under a minute to go. The same thing happened in his game against the Pats; Warner leads dramatic fourth quarter drive and watches his defense piss the game away.

[JaBronie247]

Re: Franchise Player?

I think Matt Lienart would be a good pick...:wink:
I think Joe Flacco would be a good pick for he is young and knows how to win games also he doesn't force throws he is a good QB IMO

[Cebby]

Re: Franchise Player?

I think Joe Flacco would be a good pick for he is young and knows how to win games also he doesn't force throws he is a good QB IMO

Flacco would be a terrible pick right now.

He was the textbook example of average last year.