Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

[slickdtc]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

Over the past 10 years, IMO, London Fletcher has been just as good as Ray Lewis. Yet Lewis probably has 10 pro bowls and Fletcher zero.

London Fletcher is 100% definitely underrated. And Ray Lewis gets a lot of love. But I'd still take Lewis over Fletcher.

[KG]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

Ray Lewis does not hate the 3-4. If all you get is one media piece and run with that then ... The man won defensive player of the year in the 3-4. He does not hate it. He, like anyone will hate it if you have small linemen in the 3-4 which we had before Ngata, Pryce. But even with those small linemen he won Defensive player of the year and was on par to win it the previous year (our first year in 3-4) but he got the shoulder injury. Secondly, Ray Lewis has always had to deal with blocks, EVEN when we ran 4-3 (not as many but still had too). But he was 265 lbs then so he could care less. I'd say pull out the 1999/2000 Titans regular season, playoffs, and the Raiders games and you will see Ray Lewis having to deal with blocks.

Athletically, Willis is better than Lewis, that's to be expected. The book is about to close for Ray soon. Willis has a good 10 years left in this league. Instinctually however, I think that's another story. I'm not sure anyone has caught up with Lewis in that department. His knack for film study and knowing the other teams offense and having guys like Reed that also know the other teams offense make them both on the field coaches that know how to change the defense and put it in the best position to deal with what they are looking at. The difference with the Ravens and has been after Nolan left is, Rex could call one thing, but Ray/Reed might get on the field and call something else. And they have been right every time they've done it.

If you re-watch the Colts game from last year where we got beat you will hear Lewis tell Bart Scott, "outside, outside, they are coming outside." Scott acted all confused. And sure enough the Colts ran outside and because Scott was not in position, Dominic Rhodes gained 47 yards. Then after the play you could hear Lewis say, "Man I just told you outside!!!" Again, it's this type of thing that still separates Lewis in his "old age" from the younger cats that are physically better than him at this point.

I agree. Ray had great physical skills went he first entered the league but it's his instincts that make him the best MLB I've seen (Didn't see Butkus, only saw the end of Singletary's career). There is no wasted movement with Ray and rarely will he get caught out of position.

I don't knock players for stuff they can't control such as what systems they play in. A great player is a great player.

[wwharton]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

Over the past 10 years, IMO, London Fletcher has been just as good as Ray Lewis. Yet Lewis probably has 10 pro bowls and Fletcher zero.

I love Fletcher and he deserves more love... but absolutely not. He wasn't as good as Lewis last year, let alone the last 10.

[grunt]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

Ray Lewis does not hate the 3-4. If all you get is one media piece and run with that then ... The man won defensive player of the year in the 3-4. He does not hate it. He, like anyone will hate it if you have small linemen in the 3-4 which we had before Ngata, Pryce. But even with those small linemen he won Defensive player of the year and was on par to win it the previous year (our first year in 3-4) but he got the shoulder injury. Secondly, Ray Lewis has always had to deal with blocks, EVEN when we ran 4-3 (not as many but still had too). But he was 265 lbs then so he could care less. I'd say pull out the 1999/2000 Titans regular season, playoffs, and the Raiders games and you will see Ray Lewis having to deal with blocks.

Athletically, Willis is better than Lewis, that's to be expected. The book is about to close for Ray soon. Willis has a good 10 years left in this league. Instinctually however, I think that's another story. I'm not sure anyone has caught up with Lewis in that department. His knack for film study and knowing the other teams offense and having guys like Reed that also know the other teams offense make them both on the field coaches that know how to change the defense and put it in the best position to deal with what they are looking at. The difference with the Ravens and has been after Nolan left is, Rex could call one thing, but Ray/Reed might get on the field and call something else. And they have been right every time they've done it.

If you re-watch the Colts game from last year where we got beat you will hear Lewis tell Bart Scott, "outside, outside, they are coming outside." Scott acted all confused. And sure enough the Colts ran outside and because Scott was not in position, Dominic Rhodes gained 47 yards. Then after the play you could hear Lewis say, "Man I just told you outside!!!" Again, it's this type of thing that still separates Lewis in his "old age" from the younger cats that are physically better than him at this point.

I never saw Ray as a stack and shed linebacker. Ray is at his best when he could run free to the ball. If a team get a blocker on him isn't the most physical at taking on blockers. I remember the game against KC a few years back and those KC linemen was putting Ray on his back that isn't a knock but even great players have their weakness.

[grunt]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

Well Ray Lewis may only have about 2-3 years let. If he stays healthy, after that Patrick will be the only one to talk about.

I don't think have another 3 years in the league. He is beginning to look little less explosive to me.

[wwharton]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

I never saw Ray as a stack and shed linebacker. Ray is at his best when he could run free to the ball. If a team get a blocker on him isn't the most physical at taking on blockers. I remember the game against KC a few years back and those KC linemen was putting Ray on his back that isn't a knock but even great players have their weakness.

Name one MLB who isn't at his "best" when he can run free to the ball. That KC game you're talking about was when KC had arguably the best Oline in the NFL. Not to take anything away from Priest Holmes but he had good games against Cleveland in Baltimore, got behind that line and became a HOFer. I wouldn't say he's every struggled, but even the years when the Ravens D line wasn't fit for the 3-4 he was a beast (until he got hurt, as LB mentioned earlier). Keep in mind, the Ravens have sent 4 D coordinators and a LB coach on their way to opportunities as head coaches and the D (when Ray has been healthy) has not missed a beat. 4-3, 3-4, whatever.

I don't think have another 3 years in the league. He is beginning to look little less explosive to me.

I don't know how many Ravens games you watch but probably not many. Last year he had his usual 100+ tackles while leading the 2nd or 3rd best defense and continuing the insane run of games without allowing a 100 yard rusher. At this point, he's more prone to injury, but that's the only thing stopping him from going another 2 or 3 years and being effective. Honestly, Ray sitting in a wheelchair on the field presnap is more valuable than a lot of the MLBs in the league. He is the Ravens D Coordinator.

[grunt]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

Name one MLB who isn't at his "best" when he can run free to the ball. That KC game you're talking about was when KC had arguably the best Oline in the NFL. Not to take anything away from Priest Holmes but he had good games against Cleveland in Baltimore, got behind that line and became a HOFer. I wouldn't say he's every struggled, but even the years when the Ravens D line wasn't fit for the 3-4 he was a beast (until he got hurt, as LB mentioned earlier). Keep in mind, the Ravens have sent 4 D coordinators and a LB coach on their way to opportunities as head coaches and the D (when Ray has been healthy) has not missed a beat. 4-3, 3-4, whatever.



I don't know how many Ravens games you watch but probably not many. Last year he had his usual 100+ tackles while leading the 2nd or 3rd best defense and continuing the insane run of games without allowing a 100 yard rusher. At this point, he's more prone to injury, but that's the only thing stopping him from going another 2 or 3 years and being effective. Honestly, Ray sitting in a wheelchair on the field presnap is more valuable than a lot of the MLBs in the league. He is the Ravens D Coordinator.

I think Ray is the best lb in the last ten years but he is weak in shedding blocks.

I watched Ray in one pre-seaon game this year against the Lions. I saw him get beat in coverage and he blitzed and the 3rd string rb put him on the ground. He is getting older and that isn't a slight against Ray. I remember when LT started to slow up. He is at the stage of his career that he is slowing up and I don't see him in a Ravens uniform in 3 threes.

[wwharton]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

I think Ray is the best lb in the last ten years but he is weak in shedding blocks.

I watched Ray in one pre-seaon game this year against the Lions. I saw him get beat in coverage and he blitzed and the 3rd string rb put him on the ground. He is getting older and that isn't a slight against Ray. I remember when LT started to slow up. He is at the stage of his career that he is slowing up and I don't see him in a Ravens uniform in 3 threes.

The Ravens didn't play the Lions in the preseason. Can't even imagine if you meant another team bc I watched every Ravens preseason game twice and don't remember that... but even if I did, I'd probably base my opinion on all of last year and the year before before the qtr he may have played in a preseason game, if it was even him that you're talking about. In 3 years I don't know what uniform you think he'll be in with the contract he just signed. He'll either be a raven or retired... and if retired, it'd be due to injury.

[LBzrule]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

I never saw Ray as a stack and shed linebacker. Ray is at his best when he could run free to the ball. If a team get a blocker on him isn't the most physical at taking on blockers. I remember the game against KC a few years back and those KC linemen was putting Ray on his back that isn't a knock but even great players have their weakness.

Any linebacker is at his best when he can run free. You are right the KC linemen were killing Lewis. They were often sending a FB and a Guard at him. Ray was 240 lbs that year, not close to the 265 he was in the SB run. Everyone wants to harp on that one game, but, even that year, we made the Wildcard and lost to TN and guess who was DPOY? Lewis. And even in that game we only gave up 129 rushing yards between 2 RB's.

If you go back to the 2000 season when we won the SB and scan the tapes, you will see Lewis dealing with blocks even with Goose and Adams in front of him (however, never two guys, which is what KC did a great deal). The Chiefs lined up in a lot of jumbo sets and bunch sets and ran a great deal of zone that allowed the linemen to combo and peel to the 2nd level and the FB to lead up to the second level and take Lewis out. That's what happens when the DL is relatively small. Our average DL that year was 290 lbs.

[LBzrule]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

I think Ray is the best lb in the last ten years but he is weak in shedding blocks.

I watched Ray in one pre-seaon game this year against the Lions. I saw him get beat in coverage and he blitzed and the 3rd string rb put him on the ground. He is getting older and that isn't a slight against Ray. I remember when LT started to slow up. He is at the stage of his career that he is slowing up and I don't see him in a Ravens uniform in 3 threes.

We didn't play the Lions in Pre season. Where did you get that? Secondly Lewis hasn't had that many snaps in pre season except for the Panthers game. It you meant Panthers I will look at it again. I have all the games on tape and the biggest runs we gave up all had us in the Nickel package so I'm not sure what you are drawing from there.

[wwharton]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

We didn't play the Lions in Pre season. Where did you get that? Secondly Lewis hasn't had that many snaps in pre season except for the Panthers game. It you meant Panthers I will look at it again. I have all the games on tape and the biggest runs we gave up all had us in the Nickel package so I'm not sure what you are drawing from there.

Maybe he means the Panthers since the 3rd string runner is Gooden who played most of that game (and looks like he's going to be a player... he's just a rookie and behind Williams and Stewart). I still don't remember either of those happening but even if they did, don't know how any thoughts at all can be drawn from it. A RB picked up a blitz? Ok. A single coverage play when the ball got there and Lewis didn't lay the back out? Ok. In a preseason game? Seriously, we'd have to be talking about Lewis as the best football player to ever put pads on if we're going to say these things would never happen in pre or regular season.

He's definitely not the player he was in 2000... there's no denying that. But to say he's looking close to the end bc of these things (if they even really happened) is a bit much.

[grunt]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

Maybe he means the Panthers since the 3rd string runner is Gooden who played most of that game (and looks like he's going to be a player... he's just a rookie and behind Williams and Stewart). I still don't remember either of those happening but even if they did, don't know how any thoughts at all can be drawn from it. A RB picked up a blitz? Ok. A single coverage play when the ball got there and Lewis didn't lay the back out? Ok. In a preseason game? Seriously, we'd have to be talking about Lewis as the best football player to ever put pads on if we're going to say these things would never happen in pre or regular season.

He's definitely not the player he was in 2000... there's no denying that. But to say he's looking close to the end bc of these things (if they even really happened) is a bit much.

My bad it was the Panthers and Ray came on the blitz and he got put on his back. I rewinded that play a few times on my dvr. There was another play where the Panther's TE ran a seam route and ran past ray. Now, I know this is pre-season and I can't go on 2 plays but those plays did catch my eye. Why, because it is Ray Lewis.

No one is forever young and some players lose it gradually while others lose it all at once. Only time will tell with Ray. Ray is so smart that he can play angles to cover some of his lost speed and quickness but that only goes so far.

[grunt]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

We didn't play the Lions in Pre season. Where did you get that? Secondly Lewis hasn't had that many snaps in pre season except for the Panthers game. It you meant Panthers I will look at it again. I have all the games on tape and the biggest runs we gave up all had us in the Nickel package so I'm not sure what you are drawing from there.

Good, watch the tape and get back with me.

Peace

[LBzrule]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

I saw it. I don't make a big deal out of it like you do but... It's happened before by James Mungro a few years ago. Every year Ray plays around 240 he loses some umph!! I don't like it, but for longevity it is good for him. Secondly, it's not new knowledge about Ray in man coverage. We say it a couple of years ago where he got burnt by Antonio Gates.

[grunt]

Re: Do you think that Patrick Willis has finally surpassed Ray Lewis as the best MLB?

I saw it. I don't make a big deal out of it like you do but... It's happened before by James Mungro a few years ago. Every year Ray plays around 240 he loses some umph!! I don't like it, but for longevity it is good for him. Secondly, it's not new knowledge about Ray in man coverage. We say it a couple of years ago where he got burnt by Antonio Gates.

I am not making a big deal and if this happen a few years ago then no big deal. I didn't make a big deal about Shawn Marriman getting blown up by Maurice Jones. Things happen in context in a football game but when players get older I notice it lil bit more. This is more of an age discussion than his greatness as a player.

The play when the te went pass him look mor like Ray was playing zone and maybe he should have some help over the top. I was just making an observation.