MVP Discussion Thread

[tripwire]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Let's first agree that Lewis was not dominant that season over his peers like AP was this season, not even close.

Ahman Green had the same yds/cary avg as Jamal, and finished just 183 yards behind him. LT had the same yds/carry with 1645 yds. Four backs that year finished well over 1600 yards, with the 5th at 1591, and 6th at 1572. Jamal had 22 runs of 20+ that season. None of the 4 backs that finished behind him had less than 17 runs of 20+. All in all, Jamal had a great season in an era where running was the focus, and when a number of other backs had good to great seasons themselves. It wasn't a dominant performance when you factor all those thing in there.

AP's 6.0 avg is remarkable, especially since the next guy with the same avg had 141 less carries. The next guy finished 484 yards behind him with a 4.8 avg. AP had 35 runs of 20+, nobody else in the league could reach 20. The only stat he didn't dominate this year was TD's. AP did what he did in an era where passing is the focus. His performance this season was dominant.

When one looks at Rodgers vs Manning, one can't state a pure dominance over the other. Rodgers had a 108 QB rating to Manning's 105.8. Manning had 364 more yards. Rodgers had 2 more passing td's, and 3 less picks. Manning had a 68.6 completion %, Rodgers 67.2. Manning had 71 plays of over 20 yards, Rodgers 63. IMO, what Rodgers did behind that line stands out more. Thing is, one can make an argument for both quite easily.

AP had nobody that compared to his season at RB. To me, the QB's can easily cancel each other out, and leave AP at the top of the MVP voting.

[kehlis]

That's an interesting and really good point Trip.

[wwharton]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Let's first agree that Lewis was not dominant that season over his peers like AP was this season, not even close.

Ahman Green had the same yds/cary avg as Jamal, and finished just 183 yards behind him. LT had the same yds/carry with 1645 yds. Four backs that year finished well over 1600 yards, with the 5th at 1591, and 6th at 1572. Jamal had 22 runs of 20+ that season. None of the 4 backs that finished behind him had less than 17 runs of 20+. All in all, Jamal had a great season in an era where running was the focus, and when a number of other backs had good to great seasons themselves. It wasn't a dominant performance when you factor all those thing in there.

AP's 6.0 avg is remarkable, especially since the next guy with the same avg had 141 less carries. The next guy finished 484 yards behind him with a 4.8 avg. AP had 35 runs of 20+, nobody else in the league could reach 20. The only stat he didn't dominate this year was TD's. AP did what he did in an era where passing is the focus. His performance this season was dominant.

When one looks at Rodgers vs Manning, one can't state a pure dominance over the other. Rodgers had a 108 QB rating to Manning's 105.8. Manning had 364 more yards. Rodgers had 2 more passing td's, and 3 less picks. Manning had a 68.6 completion %, Rodgers 67.2. Manning had 71 plays of over 20 yards, Rodgers 63. IMO, what Rodgers did behind that line stands out more. Thing is, one can make an argument for both quite easily.

AP had nobody that compared to his season at RB. To me, the QB's can easily cancel each other out, and leave AP at the top of the MVP voting.

I'd consider voting for MVP strongly based on what others didn't do similar to ruling out someone because their back up was able to step in and have a good game or two when they were out. To me, it doesn't make sense. And it also doesn't matter to me that this is a passing era because that's not how the Vikings play... or the Hawks, 9ers, Texans or Skins. That's almost half of the teams that are in the playoffs, and a more run focused attack would benefit the Ravens as well. Even the Broncos and Pats (clearly pass heavy teams) run much more balanced attacks than many know.

Your stats are good though, but I still don't see the season as being much different than Jamal's (who you said was not dominant in a season where he finished 2nd behind Dickerson? Only about 35 yards behind AP this year?), and I think these insane statistical seasons should be rewarded they just don't hold the same value in the MVP vote as QBs having great years with their teams higher in the rankings. Maybe it'll change some day... maybe this year. But I also don't really understand the issue with winning OPOY. That's extremely high praise.

[mestevo]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Let's first agree that Lewis was not dominant that season over his peers like AP was this season, not even close.

Ahman Green had the same yds/cary avg as Jamal, and finished just 183 yards behind him. LT had the same yds/carry with 1645 yds. Four backs that year finished well over 1600 yards, with the 5th at 1591, and 6th at 1572. Jamal had 22 runs of 20+ that season. None of the 4 backs that finished behind him had less than 17 runs of 20+. All in all, Jamal had a great season in an era where running was the focus, and when a number of other backs had good to great seasons themselves. It wasn't a dominant performance when you factor all those thing in there.

AP's 6.0 avg is remarkable, especially since the next guy with the same avg had 141 less carries. The next guy finished 484 yards behind him with a 4.8 avg. AP had 35 runs of 20+, nobody else in the league could reach 20. The only stat he didn't dominate this year was TD's. AP did what he did in an era where passing is the focus. His performance this season was dominant.

When one looks at Rodgers vs Manning, one can't state a pure dominance over the other. Rodgers had a 108 QB rating to Manning's 105.8. Manning had 364 more yards. Rodgers had 2 more passing td's, and 3 less picks. Manning had a 68.6 completion %, Rodgers 67.2. Manning had 71 plays of over 20 yards, Rodgers 63. IMO, what Rodgers did behind that line stands out more. Thing is, one can make an argument for both quite easily.

AP had nobody that compared to his season at RB. To me, the QB's can easily cancel each other out, and leave AP at the top of the MVP voting.

It's a really good case for offensive (and comeback, in this circumstance) player, what Manning did to/with the Broncos this season is what makes someone an MVP though to me.

[JODYE]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

I don't know why I have to keep pointing this out but the Denver D that you are using to discredit Manning this year, (with the exception of dt Derek Wolfe) was ranked 20th last year.

They have benefited greatly from being off the field this year because of what Manning has done with the offense. That's pretty much the definition of someone being valuable to your team.

And AP has nothing to do with keeping the Vikings D off the field? Kaaaaaaaaay. -_-

Btw that 14th ranked Vikings D was 31st last year.

[kehlis]

And AP has nothing to do with keeping the Vikings D off the field? Kaaaaaaaaay. -_-

Btw that 14th ranked Vikings D was 31st last year.

I'm not sure where I suggested otherwise?

Instead of trying to argue against the other, I was trying to make an argument for. I know it hasn't been the theme of this thread though so far so I apologize for not being specific.

[JODYE]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Sorry, I didn't mean to be vague or sound sarcastic.

You made this point at the end:

That's pretty much the definition of someone being valuable to your team.

When before, and correct me if I'm wrong, you were saying Manning was more valuable based on that fact, when AP did the same exact thing for the Vikings defense.

Was just countering your argument. That's all.

[kehlis]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be vague or sound sarcastic.

You made this point at the end:

That's pretty much the definition of someone being valuable to your team.

When before, and correct me if I'm wrong, you were saying Manning was more valuable based on that fact, when AP did the same exact thing for the Vikings defense.

Was just countering your argument. That's all.

Yea and its a good argument to negate that.

BUT, the only reason I brought it up in the first place was to counter the argument being brought up against Manning that the defense was good when he got here.

I wasn't using it as a slight on AP at all.

[JODYE]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Yea and its a good argument to negate that.

BUT, the only reason I brought it up in the first place was to counter the argument being brought up against Manning that the defense was good when he got here.

I wasn't using it as a slight on AP at all.

I admit, I think I was the one guilty of bringing that original argument up.

However, I think saying that last year's Bronco defense was poor would be a view from extreme objectiveness. To elaborate, statistically, yes you could argue that the defense was below average, but I think anyone in their right mind who watched that team play, knew the defense was being worn thin by Tebow's inability to keep the offense on the field. They clearly had the talent. Two elite pass rushers, a Hall of Fame corner and solid safety play. So I think that argument does hold some weight in a certain respect, but I agree now that it shouldn't be considered a knock in terms of who deserves a 2012-13 award. Was just stated for perspective.

Really, if we wanted to take this to a purely statistical argument, and take the non-statistical interpretation out, then you would be correct that the defense has been much better soley because of how good Manning is. Moreso, than him keeping the offense off the field, he limits turnovers. Their turnover differential is +11 from last year which is sure to help any defense improve. Not only that, but their TOP increased over 2 minutes per game from 2011.

I'm going to stop this here, because I think I just convinced myself that Manning might actually deserve the MVP lmfao

But I don't know, I can't seem to get past the fact that AP played on a team that ranked dead last in passing, and still was able to be that statistically dominant with the work load he had to carry and the odds that were stacked against him every game.

I know stats aren't the whole picture, but people had better seasons at QB than Manning did. No one had a better season than AP at RB and his team also made the playoffs with it's other star playmaker, on IR and a QB that couldn't throw for his body weight. AP average more YPC than the Vikings did per pass completion.

Crap. You know what, they both deserve it lol

[tripwire]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

I'd consider voting for MVP strongly based on what others didn't do similar to ruling out someone because their back up was able to step in and have a good game or two when they were out. To me, it doesn't make sense. And it also doesn't matter to me that this is a passing era because that's not how the Vikings play... or the Hawks, 9ers, Texans or Skins. That's almost half of the teams that are in the playoffs, and a more run focused attack would benefit the Ravens as well. Even the Broncos and Pats (clearly pass heavy teams) run much more balanced attacks than many know.

Your stats are good though, but I still don't see the season as being much different than Jamal's (who you said was not dominant in a season where he finished 2nd behind Dickerson? Only about 35 yards behind AP this year?), and I think these insane statistical seasons should be rewarded they just don't hold the same value in the MVP vote as QBs having great years with their teams higher in the rankings. Maybe it'll change some day... maybe this year. But I also don't really understand the issue with winning OPOY. That's extremely high praise.

My point was that, yes, Jamal had a dominating statistical season when looking at just his numbers, but he did not dominate his peers like AP did this season, not even close. Just look at what Green and LT did in '03. Priest Holmes had 27 TD's that same season.

It would be cool if the '97 season scenario played itself out here again. Barry Sanders had over 2000 yards, while leading Detroit to 9-7, and a playoff birth, but ended up sharing the MVP with Favre that year.

QB's historically get the nod in these scenarios, so if AP gets OPOY, and Manning MVP, it really should surprise nobody. Rodgers should also get some serious consideration in the voting process.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Split the award 3 ways between Rodgers, Peterson and Manning.

[areobee401]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Much like the Rookie of the Year race between Luck, RG3 and Wilson all 3 guys are deserving. I feel Rodgers will take 1st place votes away from Peterson allowing Manning to become league MVP.

Quarterback league and the NFL loves them some Peyton Manning.

[Rocky]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Much like the Rookie of the Year race between Luck, RG3 and Wilson all 3 guys are deserving. I feel Rodgers will take 1st place votes away from Peterson allowing Manning to become league MVP.

Quarterback league and the NFL loves them some Peyton Manning.

I'm kinda hoping that Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady will take some MVP votes from Peyton actually. That will go to show you how ahead AP is of his peers.

[mestevo]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

I'm kinda hoping that Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady will take some MVP votes from Peyton actually. That will go to show you how ahead AP is of his peers.

For some reason I think it would go the other way. Manning's comeback trumps the other QBs for MVP, with there being a debate between him and AP. Votes for others take votes from AP.

[wwharton]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

My point was that, yes, Jamal had a dominating statistical season when looking at just his numbers, but he did not dominate his peers like AP did this season, not even close. Just look at what Green and LT did in '03. Priest Holmes had 27 TD's that same season.

It would be cool if the '97 season scenario played itself out here again. Barry Sanders had over 2000 yards, while leading Detroit to 9-7, and a playoff birth, but ended up sharing the MVP with Favre that year.

QB's historically get the nod in these scenarios, so if AP gets OPOY, and Manning MVP, it really should surprise nobody. Rodgers should also get some serious consideration in the voting process.

I understood what you meant, I just don't agree that it matters. In some cases it does... rule changes could adjust trends so making that comparison isn't out of left field. But there's a reason AP is in the MVP talk and no other running back comes close to a mention. I think Jamal's year just happened to have other RBs with good years in one way or another. I don't think this is a case where the landscape isn't designed for RBs to have a better year and he just rose above it.

That's just me though, it's not a horrible point to back him, I just personally don't think it matters much.

By the way I'd be fine with them splitting the award. I'd personally give it to Manning but it's definitely close. Most of what I'm saying is about who I think will get it. That's where history comes in, and history says it will be Manning.