Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

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  • bkrich83
    Has Been
    • Jul 2002
    • 71582

    #286
    Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

    Looking at Bettis was he really outstanding compared to his peers? I'd say no. Good back but never really considered great. Good career but I don't see the justification to vote him in.


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    • wwharton
      *ll St*r
      • Aug 2002
      • 26949

      #287
      Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

      Originally posted by 55
      Bettis was actually below borderline.

      Nice guy with a cutesy little nickname for all the kiddies, sure.

      On the field though, hardly above replacement level other than 1-2 solid seasons. He just benefitted by playing on a team with a run first philosophy for a long time and was extremely lucky with injuries.
      I won't argue whether or not Bettis should or shouldn't be in the HOF bc the fact is he IS in, and that alone puts him at worse on the "fringe" level (if he were below he'd be out).

      Originally posted by KG
      How can you not compare fringe players? They're all competing to get in and one getting in def hurts the chances of someone else at the same position getting the nod. We're entering the territory where most of us have actually seen someone's entire career including college so we know these guys in & out and can measure their impact. Marshawn's name doesn't immediately ring out right when I think of HOF running backs but who's to say that with a few more big years (individually & as a team) that it won't.

      I agree with 55 in that I rate him higher than Bettis but I understand the politics of the HOF.
      You're misreading my point as it applies to this discussion. What I'm saying is Bettis is a fringe player who is in the HOF. But just bc he's in it doesn't mean another player with similar stats to his should also get in. The fact that he was on the fringe means he could just as easily be out. If we're evaluating a player to see if they should be in the HOF we should be comparing their careers to players that are no doubt HOFers.

      What you're describing is comparing two players who are both on the fringe of getting in, rather than comparing one who may be on the fringe of getting in to one who is already in... hope that makes more sense.

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      • KG
        Welcome Back
        • Sep 2005
        • 17583

        #288
        Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

        Originally posted by wwharton

        You're misreading my point as it applies to this discussion. What I'm saying is Bettis is a fringe player who is in the HOF. But just bc he's in it doesn't mean another player with similar stats to his should also get in. The fact that he was on the fringe means he could just as easily be out. If we're evaluating a player to see if they should be in the HOF we should be comparing their careers to players that are no doubt HOFers.

        What you're describing is comparing two players who are both on the fringe of getting in, rather than comparing one who may be on the fringe of getting in to one who is already in... hope that makes more sense.
        If you are in you're no longer fringe no matter how many years you had to wait. You become the standard by which others are measured. That's where I disagree. In my opinion there are no fringe enshrined HOF'ers.

        It's not to discredit current HOF'ers (although we/I sort of am with Bettis) but to see how those up for vote compare as well as stack up against their competitors (those also up for vote).
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        • sycodmn
          Pro
          • Sep 2003
          • 805

          #289
          Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

          Originally posted by bkrich83
          Looking at Bettis was he really outstanding compared to his peers? I'd say no. Good back but never really considered great. Good career but I don't see the justification to vote him in.


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          This is basically how I feel about Bettis. If you had him as your main back, you were doing alright, but it's not a position you couldn't upgrade. He's probably a top ten back each year he was in the league. Certainly didn't think he was a HOFer, he wasn't close to being the best back of his era (although Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders are stiff competition).

          I definitely think Marshawn Lynch is a better player than Bettis ever was, but I'm still not sure he's a HOFer. Hall of Very Good is nothing to sneeze at, the NFL HOF is probably the most solid of any major sport.

          All the TEs mentioned should get in. Tony Gonzalez is first ballot. Gates and Witten are solid HOFers. Gronk and Graham have a great chance assuming their careers continue in the direction they have been.

          Trying to think of a Raider to throw up for discussion...

          Steve Wisniewski
          8x Pro Bowler
          2x First Team All Pro
          90s All-Decade Team (for whatever it's worth)
          12 year career, all with the Raiders

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          • redsox4evur
            Hall Of Fame
            • Jul 2013
            • 18169

            #290
            Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

            Originally posted by sycodmn
            This is basically how I feel about Bettis. If you had him as your main back, you were doing alright, but it's not a position you couldn't upgrade. He's probably a top ten back each year he was in the league. Certainly didn't think he was a HOFer, he wasn't close to being the best back of his era (although Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders are stiff competition).

            I definitely think Marshawn Lynch is a better player than Bettis ever was, but I'm still not sure he's a HOFer. Hall of Very Good is nothing to sneeze at, the NFL HOF is probably the most solid of any major sport.

            All the TEs mentioned should get in. Tony Gonzalez is first ballot. Gates and Witten are solid HOFers. Gronk and Graham have a great chance assuming their careers continue in the direction they have been.

            Trying to think of a Raider to throw up for discussion...

            Steve Wisniewski
            8x Pro Bowler
            2x First Team All Pro
            90s All-Decade Team (for whatever it's worth)
            12 year career, all with the Raiders
            How about one I saw earlier in the thread, now that he has retired and a punter has gotten in. Shane Lechler?
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            • bigbob
              MVP
              • Sep 2007
              • 10471

              #291
              Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

              I'm going to go a different route with this one.

              Joe Namath.
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              • 55
                Banned
                • Mar 2006
                • 20857

                #292
                Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

                Originally posted by bigbob
                I'm going to go a different route with this one.

                Joe Namath.
                By any sort of modern standards, he should have never even sniffed the Hall of Fame.

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                • elgreazy1
                  MVP
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 2996

                  #293
                  Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

                  Originally posted by redsox4evur
                  How about one I saw earlier in the thread, now that he has retired and a punter has gotten in. Shane Lechler?
                  Such a shame special teams is always left out of HOF considerations.

                  A guy like Adam Viniatieri I see as a first-ballot guy because he helped win some major games in non-ideal situations. My justification when it comes to HOF credentials goes along the lines of "could one tell the history or evolution of the game without X player"? I don't think you can without a guy like Viniatieri.
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                  • redsox4evur
                    Hall Of Fame
                    • Jul 2013
                    • 18169

                    #294
                    Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

                    Originally posted by elgreazy1
                    Such a shame special teams is always left out of HOF considerations.

                    A guy like Adam Viniatieri I see as a first-ballot guy because he helped win some major games in non-ideal situations. My justification when it comes to HOF credentials goes along the lines of "could one tell the history or evolution of the game without X player"? I don't think you can without a guy like Viniatieri.
                    Exactly without Vinatieri the Patriots don't even make the AFC Championship in 2001, nevermind win a SB. I still can't believe he hit that kick against Oakland in driving wind and snow. And in 2003 he hit another one with 4 seconds left in the game. There is no way the Patriots are a dynasty without Vinatieri.

                    This is the kick I am talking about. <iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HU_qJeXof-k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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                    • slickdtc
                      Grayscale
                      • Aug 2004
                      • 17125

                      #295
                      Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

                      I remember watching that live on a crappy analog rigged TV I was using to play, I dunno, Dreamcast? There was definitely snow, but there was a lot of static too with that ghetto setup.

                      What a kick. It's insane he had so many opportunities in some of the biggest moments ever, and he nailed all of them. Even when he had missed a few earlier (SB against CAR, I believe).

                      The name Vinatieri will live in the annals of pro football history.
                      NHL - Philadelphia Flyers
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                      Originally posted by Money99
                      And how does one levy a check that will result in only a slight concussion? Do they set their shoulder-pads to 'stun'?

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                      • C the Lyte
                        Left side, strong side
                        • May 2009
                        • 2253

                        #296
                        Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

                        It's such a stretch for a punter/kicker to get in the hall as is.


                        But to continue this discussion, Lechler was very much a mold of Ray Guy. So if Guy gets in, Lechler at least gets mention.
                        EXPERIENCE MAYHEM FOOTBALL

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                        • SPTO
                          binging
                          • Feb 2003
                          • 68046

                          #297
                          Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

                          I remember a playoff game (I think against the Jets?) where Lechler was the secret weapon. EVERY kick was completely nailed and put the opponent in a bad situation.
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                          • The15thunter
                            MVP
                            • Mar 2003
                            • 1639

                            #298
                            Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

                            jerome bettis shouldn't get in. as stated above, he was media, fan and community friendly, a great guy and teammate, and a good player, but was never overwhelmingly great.

                            joe namath has no business in the hall of fame.

                            vinatieri deserves to make the hall, i think he has the best case for any special teams player there has been.
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                            • wwharton
                              *ll St*r
                              • Aug 2002
                              • 26949

                              #299
                              Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

                              Originally posted by The15thunter
                              jerome bettis shouldn't get in. as stated above, he was media, fan and community friendly, a great guy and teammate, and a good player, but was never overwhelmingly great.

                              joe namath has no business in the hall of fame.

                              vinatieri deserves to make the hall, i think he has the best case for any special teams player there has been.
                              Someone else phrased it like this also so just to make sure we're having the same discussion, Bettis IS in the HOF. That's actually why his name is a good one to bring up imo. I'm not trying to take his jacket away but he is very much borderline in my mind (and many others obviously) so I don't think anyone should say "X player is better than Bettis was so he should be in too." That's how you end up diluting one of the best HOFs in sports. The standard shouldn't be the ones that barely got in.

                              BTW, good to see you around here. Hope you're still at least "tolerating" life up north.

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                              • The15thunter
                                MVP
                                • Mar 2003
                                • 1639

                                #300
                                Re: Is (Insert Player Here) A Hall of Famer?

                                Originally posted by wwharton
                                Someone else phrased it like this also so just to make sure we're having the same discussion, Bettis IS in the HOF. That's actually why his name is a good one to bring up imo. I'm not trying to take his jacket away but he is very much borderline in my mind (and many others obviously) so I don't think anyone should say "X player is better than Bettis was so he should be in too." That's how you end up diluting one of the best HOFs in sports. The standard shouldn't be the ones that barely got in.

                                BTW, good to see you around here. Hope you're still at least "tolerating" life up north.
                                my mistake, i know bettis is in, i just don't think he should be. i feel the same way about him that i do about donovan mcnabb, in that i think they are the benchmarks for entry, but themselves shouldn't be in. if you're better than bettis/mcnabb, you should be in the hall, if not, you stay out.

                                also, i'm back in town. moved back last july, i thought you knew.
                                xbox gt - bmorerep87

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