Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

[wwharton]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Yeah, just the fact that they not only had to put Dilfer under center, but they had to use him to replace Tony Banks is a big nod to "game managers".

It really has nothing to do with "game managers" at all. It says a lot about the talent on the rest of the team, just like when Cassell "managed" his way to 11 wins in NE.

The difference is between saying, "just don't do anything to screw us up" because we don't believe you can do any more than play that role, and saying that because we don't need you to do any more than that. Both players are game managers, and even great players that can't dial it back aren't worth being out there.

[Bmore Irish]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

I think Alex Smith would be an interesting guy to breakdown as far as a guy with a game manager label, especially since he was a pretty highly regarded player coming out of college.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Let the debate begin.

I think he is honestly. He made what 5 or 6 straight playoffs and won a road game in all of them. He's got a SB.

Depends on what is meant by elite.

To me, elite means best of the best; an elite QB is in the discussion for being the best. Joe is not in the group. He is probably right outside, or arguably just inside, the top 5, but to be elite you need to be top 3 in my opinion.

I always remember Clayton from ESPN and how he labels almost half the starting QBs as being elite.

[Candyman5]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

I think Flacco is a average season QB but a elite playoff QB.

[wwharton]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Depends on what is meant by elite.

To me, elite means best of the best; an elite QB is in the discussion for being the best. Joe is not in the group. He is probably right outside, or arguably just inside, the top 5, but to be elite you need to be top 3 in my opinion.

I always remember Clayton from ESPN and how he labels almost half the starting QBs as being elite.

I don't even think you can put a number on it. There could be years with 5 or 6 elite QBs and seasons with just 1. A QB I'd call elite will have to have proven it on a consistent basis. That's tricky bc my criteria has Peyton and his increasing inconsistency as elite but Luck not quite yet just bc of sample size.

Flacco still has too many head scratcher regular season games to be in that group. It's one thing to go up against a tough D and it kills your stats but he just has random games where he's personally off. He's also made bad audibles, tried to force passes, not properly read the D... all things he's consistently gotten better with over the years. So he has a chance to make that leap if he can put it all together on a weekly basis, but he hasn't reached that point yet.

[Bmore Irish]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Yeah, have to agree that inconsistency keeps Joe out of the "elite" conversation. It's baffling the way he can seamlessly transition from looking damn near incompetent to looking like a world beater.

[slickdtc]

Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

I think Alex Smith would be an interesting guy to breakdown as far as a guy with a game manager label, especially since he was a pretty highly regarded player coming out of college.

Alex Smith is my baseline for game manager QB's. When I say game manager, I mean more efficient (high completion rate due to dink and dunking, low INT/fumble numbers). A lot of people think "just a guy" who happens to be along for the ride. That's Dilfer to me. I don't think Brad Johnson fits that on the 02 Bucs, though I'm not sure he was a game manager either.

The QB landscape is so interesting right now with your couple of HOF bound QB's still kicking into their mid-late 30's, some exciting young QB's who are knocking at the door, and a couple of incumbents who are pretty good but have shown they can go either way on any given Sunday.

For me, a lot of it has to do with coaching and personnel, with a major emphasis on these things being contributing factors when the QB comes in to the league. Some guys are going to be what they are no matter what (good or bad), but I think some guys careers have been sabotaged due to bad management of their abilities and career. I mean, every now and then we get a Rich Gannon who toiled for a while before eventually becoming a really good QB in his later years. What happened and why did it take so long? And who are players who could run that same career arc, or who could've but didn't stick around long enough to find out?

The great mystery of sports, and particularly football. It's almost like the chicken or egg; does the QB make the players around him or vice versa? Coaches? Whole organizations (Pats without Brady?)

Good to have a thread like this I think. Let's try not to devolve this into jWill and Russell Wilson and keep it constructive.

[oneamongthefence]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Alex Smith is my baseline for game manager QB's. When I say game manager, I mean more efficient (high completion rate due to dink and dunking, low INT/fumble numbers). A lot of people think "just a guy" who happens to be along for the ride. That's Dilfer to me. I don't think Brad Johnson fits that on the 02 Bucs, though I'm not sure he was a game manager either.

The QB landscape is so interesting right now with your couple of HOF bound QB's still kicking into their mid-late 30's, some exciting young QB's who are knocking at the door, and a couple of incumbents who are pretty good but have shown they can go either way on any given Sunday.

For me, a lot of it has to do with coaching and personnel, with a major emphasis on these things being contributing factors when the QB comes in to the league. Some guys are going to be what they are no matter what (good or bad), but I think some guys careers have been sabotaged due to bad management of their abilities and career. I mean, every now and then we get a Rich Gannon who toiled for a while before eventually becoming a really good QB in his later years. What happened and why did it take so long? And who are players who could run that same career arc, or who could've but didn't stick around long enough to find out?

The great mystery of sports, and particularly football. It's almost like the chicken or egg; does the QB make the players around him or vice versa? Coaches? Whole organizations (Pats without Brady?)

Good to have a thread like this I think. Let's try not to devolve this into jWill and Russell Wilson and keep it constructive.

An elite quarterback is elite. You can give him anybody and he'll still be good. Guys like Manning, Rodgers, Luck etc. A game manager should be everyone else in the league. Jay Cutler should be a game manager. Matthew Stafford should be a game manager. Russel Wilson of think should be a game manager. I think in all those examples as long as those quarterbacks don't make mistakes their team can be successful and shouldn't have to have their teams in their backs due to lack of experience or skill.

This is not a test.

[wwharton]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

An elite quarterback is elite. You can give him anybody and he'll still be good. Guys like Manning, Rodgers, Luck etc. A game manager should be everyone else in the league. Jay Cutler should be a game manager. Matthew Stafford should be a game manager. Russel Wilson of think should be a game manager. I think in all those examples as long as those quarterbacks don't make mistakes their team can be successful and shouldn't have to have their teams in their backs due to lack of experience or skill.

This is not a test.

EVERY QB should be a game manager. Peyton, Brady and Luck are some of the best "game managers" in the league. The problem is "game manager" should not be used as the opposite of "elite".

[oneamongthefence]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Manning Luck and Rodgers take over games. They are the embodiment of a field General. Field General is a step above a game manager. That's my opinion though on the hierarchy of qbs. I envision a game manager is someone that just doesn't make mistakes or is tasked with just not losing the game by minimizing mistakes. Field generals have those traits as well but you can count on those guys to go out and win the game with the team on their backs. Field generals are guys that can win despite not having a solid team around them, either a defense a run game or solid receivers. Peyton manning is a field General. He didn't have a defense in Indy that could take over a game. Rodgers defense has been up and down and had a few years where their run game was subpar. Eli Manning is a game manager. His defense kept him in games and without a solid supporting cast he doesn't have the ability to put a team on his shoulders and still win.

This is not a test.

[redsox4evur]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Manning Luck and Rodgers take over games. They are the embodiment of a field General. Field General is a step above a game manager. That's my opinion though on the hierarchy of qbs. I envision a game manager is someone that just doesn't make mistakes or is tasked with just not losing the game by minimizing mistakes. Field generals have those traits as well but you can count on those guys to go out and win the game with the team on their backs. Field generals are guys that can win despite not having a solid team around them, either a defense a run game or solid receivers. Peyton manning is a field General. He didn't have a defense in Indy that could take over a game. Rodgers defense has been up and down and had a few years where their run game was subpar. Eli Manning is a game manager. His defense kept him in games and without a solid supporting cast he doesn't have the ability to put a team on his shoulders and still win.

This is not a test.

How do not include Brady as a field general? He is right up there, if not better than Luck and Manning.

[Bmore Irish]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Manning Luck and Rodgers take over games. They are the embodiment of a field General. Field General is a step above a game manager. That's my opinion though on the hierarchy of qbs. I envision a game manager is someone that just doesn't make mistakes or is tasked with just not losing the game by minimizing mistakes. Field generals have those traits as well but you can count on those guys to go out and win the game with the team on their backs. Field generals are guys that can win despite not having a solid team around them, either a defense a run game or solid receivers. Peyton manning is a field General. He didn't have a defense in Indy that could take over a game. Rodgers defense has been up and down and had a few years where their run game was subpar. Eli Manning is a game manager. His defense kept him in games and without a solid supporting cast he doesn't have the ability to put a team on his shoulders and still win.

This is not a test.

I have to disagree with your earlier assessment that game managers are any QBs who aren't elite. In the context in which it's being discussed here, or any context really, I don't view guys like Jay Cutler or Matt Stafford as "game managers." Cutler in particular is known to sling it and make some very risky throws, and I'd say that's the antithesis of a game manager.

[oneamongthefence]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

How do not include Brady as a field general? He is right up there, if not better than Luck and Manning.

I was listing examples. I would also include Brady and Roethlisberger.

I have to disagree with your earlier assessment that game managers are any QBs who aren't elite. In the context in which it's being discussed here, or any context really, I don't view guys like Jay Cutler or Matt Stafford as "game managers." Cutler in particular is known to sling it and make some very risky throws, and I'd say that's the antithesis of a game manager.

I said Jay Cutler should be a game manager. He doesn't have the ability (intelligence or possibly work ethic) to lead a team by himself. He needs to play like a game manager.

This is not a test.

[wwharton]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

I was listing examples. I would also include Brady and Roethlisberger.

I said Jay Cutler should be a game manager. He doesn't have the ability (intelligence or possibly work ethic) to lead a team by himself. He needs to play like a game manager.

This is not a test.

You're showing the flaw in the "labels" right here. Hell Eli, is known for racking up yards but having lots of turnovers... that puts him closer to Cutler than say Wilson. Game manager, field general, whatever... these are made up terms not universally accepted. Unfortunately game manager is now widely used, however used differently by different people making it all too confusing.

There is a hierarchy, but these terms do less to describe it and more to muddle the discussion.

[oneamongthefence]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

You're showing the flaw in the "labels" right here. Hell Eli, is known for racking up yards but having lots of turnovers... that puts him closer to Cutler than say Wilson. Game manager, field general, whatever... these are made up terms not universally accepted. Unfortunately game manager is now widely used, however used differently by different people making it all too confusing.

There is a hierarchy, but these terms do less to describe it and more to muddle the discussion.

Maybe it would better be used as a role designation within an offense. Tiers are good designation on talent maybe or ability. Field General or Game manager is an offensive responsibility more so than an indication of talent. Field generals types have the trust of the coach to actively lead his team to a win. Game managers may have the trust of the coach but their number 1 concern is to not cause turnovers and let the other pieces of the team dictate the Game.

This is not a test.