NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

[RealmK]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

So RealmK in the early pages of this thread was complaining about goalie movement not mattering--it 110% matters. If EA fixed goalie movement and positioning the gameplay would be so much better. Anyone who plays or knows anything about hockey knows that goalies have to be the 'best' skaters on the team. This doesn't mean the fastest--but in terms of lateral agility, they need to have the quickest short-distance burst speed. If EA took the mechanics that they're using for the "burst" speed that they've been constantly advertising on their forwards and put it on goalies, cross-creases and whatnot would never happen.

I never said goalie movement didn't matter, I was more alluding to the idea that any changes in animations could possibly open up a lot more glitches. I'm no expert on goalies, and I don't play online as one so I'm far from an expert on where the issues are with that.

Citing doom and gloom however based on an alpha build 4 months from ship is a tad silly imo however.

[Revan30]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

I never said goalie movement didn't matter, I was more alluding to the idea that any changes in animations could possibly open up a lot more glitches. I'm no expert on goalies, and I don't play online as one so I'm far from an expert on where the issues are with that.

Citing doom and gloom however based on an alpha build 4 months from ship is a tad silly imo however.

Yes, but having been following the releasing of several EA NHL products for years now I know from experience that EA announces almost all of their big chances within the first few several weeks after first announcing the game...and that time period has really long since passed. In fact, almost all of the changes EA ever introduces are announced very early on, since they really don't ever do that many outside of a few large enhancements and maybe one or two very small ones :P

[jesushaxyou]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

Yes, but having been following the releasing of several EA NHL products for years now I know from experience that EA announces almost all of their big chances within the first few several weeks after first announcing the game...and that time period has really long since passed. In fact, almost all of the changes EA ever introduces are announced very early on, since they really don't ever do that many outside of a few large enhancements and maybe one or two very small ones :P

Which is why I'm a lot more optimistic that they're still withholding information from us. Lots of good changes seem to be coming, but as we all know from experience; they don't all translate into the game as advertised.

[bwiggy33]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

Just to show how bad 2k8 blows away NHL 12 in goaltending movement lets just take a look at it from video perspective. I'm just doing this so people can understand the difference in how a game from 2k8 is light years ahead of a game in the year 2012 with goaltending. I shouldn't turn this into a comparison thread but for the sake of the topic I'm going to show it because it's just amazing how opposite the two are.

Here is the video of NHL 12. Backstrom just absolutely warps across the crease while he's already in the splits on the left post. Should never ever ever happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfDWy...feature=relmfu


Now let's take a look at NHL 2k8. Go to the 5:03 mark and look at how Gerber goes down on a shot that ends up getting blocked, but then plants his foot into the ice and he uses his MOMENTUM to slide over realistically to make a great save to his left. It's unbelievable looking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT3yF...eature=related

I can only imagine if the NHL crew just even remotely added the movement like this in. Hell the goaltending graphics are unbelievable in this game and have been since 07. 100 X better than 2k8, but movement and saves are much bigger than the graphics IMO. It is just unbelievable how different the two games are goaltending wise.

Once again I'm sorry for comparing the two games but it is mainly for people that were a little confused or didn't know about how bad the movement of goaltending really is in the NHL series. Some of you do know that, but to me I just believe it's unacceptable that goalies still move basically the exact same way since NHL 07. Most important position in sports bar none, and they haven't gotten any true love since possibly the upcoming NHL 13.

[Revan30]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

Just to show how bad 2k8 blows away NHL 12 in goaltending movement lets just take a look at it from video perspective. I'm just doing this so people can understand the difference in how a game from 2k8 is light years ahead of a game in the year 2012 with goaltending. I shouldn't turn this into a comparison thread but for the sake of the topic I'm going to show it because it's just amazing how opposite the two are.

Here is the video of NHL 12. Backstrom just absolutely warps across the crease while he's already in the splits on the left post. Should never ever ever happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfDWy...feature=relmfu


Now let's take a look at NHL 2k8. Go to the 5:03 mark and look at how Gerber goes down on a shot that ends up getting blocked, but then plants his foot into the ice and he uses his MOMENTUM to slide over realistically to make a great save to his left. It's unbelievable looking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT3yF...eature=related

I can only imagine if the NHL crew just even remotely added the movement like this in. Hell the goaltending graphics are unbelievable in this game and have been since 07. 100 X better than 2k8, but movement and saves are much bigger than the graphics IMO. It is just unbelievable how different the two games are goaltending wise.

Once again I'm sorry for comparing the two games but it is mainly for people that were a little confused or didn't know about how bad the movement of goaltending really is in the NHL series. Some of you do know that, but to me I just believe it's unacceptable that goalies still move basically the exact same way since NHL 07. Most important position in sports bar none, and they haven't gotten any true love since possibly the upcoming NHL 13.

I'm actually a huge fan of the 2k8 game. Amazing product.

That being said, I actually think that EA's goalie animations are superior--the problem is that they aren't FLUID.

In the 5:03 example you showed us, Gerber is in the middle of making a butterfly-slide blocker extension save when he stops in the MIDDLE of his animation and turns the other way to make a butterfly-slide trapper extension save.

In EA, the goalie animations don't work like that. If a goalie begins an animation he HAS TO FULLY FINISH IT before he can do ANYTHING else. That's why people have been having so many problems with dumb goalie AI where it looks like a routine reactionary save but the goalie somehow magically screws up and lets in an easy goal--because he's stuck in the middle of completing a different animation.

NHL 2k8 and NHL 2k10 had PHENOMENAL animations, not just from a goalie's game but also from a player's game. Getting awesome, real, fluid, lifelike animations is the key to making a really authentic looking AND authentic feeling sports game. Look at a game like NBA 2k12, and look at all of the incredibly smooth, fluid, and realistic-looking animations that game has got. Everything that a player does in regards to his movements looks dead-on to the way it does in real life.

Even with this year's game, NHL 13, EA is really just advertising a new animation system. The only difference between skating in NHL 12 and NHL 13 is that in NHL 13, players are going to LOOK like they are skating a lot harder--which all add to the authentic aesthetic representation as well as the authentic feel of the game. I've barely been able to play the EA NHL series because the skating feels so clunky and slow--even when it's not--just because the players look so upright and rigid and downright clunky.

Fluid, realistic animations are a huge part of sports games these days. I think that EA has a lot of realistic looking animations in their goalie game--they're just not fluid--which is a big part of making the animations look and feel even more realistic.

[RealmK]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

Just to show how bad 2k8 blows away NHL 12 in goaltending movement lets just take a look at it from video perspective. I'm just doing this so people can understand the difference in how a game from 2k8 is light years ahead of a game in the year 2012 with goaltending. I shouldn't turn this into a comparison thread but for the sake of the topic I'm going to show it because it's just amazing how opposite the two are.

Here is the video of NHL 12. Backstrom just absolutely warps across the crease while he's already in the splits on the left post. Should never ever ever happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfDWy...feature=relmfu


Now let's take a look at NHL 2k8. Go to the 5:03 mark and look at how Gerber goes down on a shot that ends up getting blocked, but then plants his foot into the ice and he uses his MOMENTUM to slide over realistically to make a great save to his left. It's unbelievable looking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT3yF...eature=related

I can only imagine if the NHL crew just even remotely added the movement like this in. Hell the goaltending graphics are unbelievable in this game and have been since 07. 100 X better than 2k8, but movement and saves are much bigger than the graphics IMO. It is just unbelievable how different the two games are goaltending wise.

Once again I'm sorry for comparing the two games but it is mainly for people that were a little confused or didn't know about how bad the movement of goaltending really is in the NHL series. Some of you do know that, but to me I just believe it's unacceptable that goalies still move basically the exact same way since NHL 07. Most important position in sports bar none, and they haven't gotten any true love since possibly the upcoming NHL 13.

Great goalie movement means nothing when the rest of your game sucks more you know what, than Paris Hilton on a Friday night, just sayin. I hear what you're saying Bwiggy truly I do, but when you have a higher desire to have teeth pulled rather than fight with NHL2k's brand of craptastic controls, you've kinda failed as a developer.

[ComaFaction]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

Great goalie movement means nothing when the rest of your game sucks more you know what, than Paris Hilton on a Friday night, just sayin. I hear what you're saying Bwiggy truly I do, but when you have a higher desire to have teeth pulled rather than fight with NHL2k's brand of craptastic controls, you've kinda failed as a developer.

That doesn't mean that we can't asked for things done properly from said game.

[bwiggy33]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

Great goalie movement means nothing when the rest of your game sucks more you know what, than Paris Hilton on a Friday night, just sayin. I hear what you're saying Bwiggy truly I do, but when you have a higher desire to have teeth pulled rather than fight with NHL2k's brand of craptastic controls, you've kinda failed as a developer.

That's what I'm not trying to get into. Screw the rest of 2k8 (which I find pretty damn fun if you actually sit down and practice the game). I don't care at all about anything else. I'm specifically talking about GOALTENDING. You can't even tell me that 2k8's goalies aren't superior than 12's. I don't know how you could. EA has had plenty of time to make this part of the game leaps and bounds better than 07. It hasn't happened. I just watched videos of NHL 07 and the goalies play almost identical to NHL 12. Just sad IMO. Goalie fighting before actually looking at the all around dynamics of what it takes to be a goalie? Pretty sad.

[RealmK]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

That's what I'm not trying to get into. Screw the rest of 2k8 (which I find pretty damn fun if you actually sit down and practice the game). I don't care at all about anything else. I'm specifically talking about GOALTENDING. You can't even tell me that 2k8's goalies aren't superior than 12's. I don't know how you could. EA has had plenty of time to make this part of the game leaps and bounds better than 07. It hasn't happened. I just watched videos of NHL 07 and the goalies play almost identical to NHL 12. Just sad IMO. Goalie fighting before actually looking at the all around dynamics of what it takes to be a goalie? Pretty sad.

In the movement animation looking realistic yes. In actual AI? That's debatable. I actually just played a little 2k8 to refresh my memory and while the goalies look good, they're still dumb as a brick, they go down when they don't need to, they're not able to adjust to blocked shots in front of the net very well, and with how bumper car hockey 2k8 is that happens alot. I think often time people look at NHL2k with either rose colored glasses or really want to give passes to 2k that they would never give to EA.

2k made 2 really excellent hockey games, Treyarch's 2k3, and Kush/VC with 2k5, the series was pretty much all down hill in nearly every aspect of gameplay as a whole ever since.

[bwiggy33]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

In the movement animation looking realistic yes. In actual AI? That's debatable. I actually just played a little 2k8 to refresh my memory and while the goalies look good, they're still dumb as a brick, they go down when they don't need to, they're not able to adjust to blocked shots in front of the net very well, and with how bumper car hockey 2k8 is that happens alot. I think often time people look at NHL2k with either rose colored glasses or really want to give passes to 2k that they would never give to EA.

2k made 2 really excellent hockey games, Treyarch's 2k3, and Kush/VC with 2k5, the series was pretty much all down hill in nearly every aspect of gameplay as a whole ever since.

I'm not talking about the AI either on the goalies. I already know that the AI is not going to be the same between 2k and EA. It's just not possible for it to be the same, nor am I asking for it to be the same. I'm talking specifically movement and momentum.

I will give EA props when there is props to be given. Right now I won't give EA a lick of props in the goaltending category because I do not like any part of the goalies besides the graphical look of them. I would love to be giving props to them but that's not going to happen on the goalie side yet. I'm pointing out these flaws because they are extremely major flaws in this game. It shouldn't be overlooked considering the movement of goalies is the most fundamental aspect of goaltending.

Also I never ever liked 2k hockey games until I got sick of the NHL series last year. Once I finally opened up my mind and tried 2k8 and 2k10 I finally saw the good in those games, that's why I am giving them praise. NHL feels way better than 2k but 2k does a lot of things correctly that EA doesn't. One of them definitely being goaltending.

[RealmK]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

I'm not talking about the AI either on the goalies. I already know that the AI is not going to be the same between 2k and EA. It's just not possible for it to be the same, nor am I asking for it to be the same. I'm talking specifically movement and momentum.

I will give EA props when there is props to be given. Right now I won't give EA a lick of props in the goaltending category because I do not like any part of the goalies besides the graphical look of them. I would love to be giving props to them but that's not going to happen on the goalie side yet. I'm pointing out these flaws because they are extremely major flaws in this game. It shouldn't be overlooked considering the movement of goalies is the most fundamental aspect of goaltending.

Also I never ever liked 2k hockey games until I got sick of the NHL series last year. Once I finally opened up my mind and tried 2k8 and 2k10 I finally saw the good in those games, that's why I am giving them praise. NHL feels way better than 2k but 2k does a lot of things correctly that EA doesn't. One of them definitely being goaltending.

No offense Bwigs but you're contradicting yourself. Animations that look good are one thing, and I agree 2k8's goalie animations, push off and all look great, but it's all for show when the AI driving said goaltender is flat out ********.

Edit: holy crap score one for the PC crowd, apparently herp derp is a swear.

[bwiggy33]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

No offense Bwigs but you're contradicting yourself. Animations that look good are one thing, and I agree 2k8's goalie animations, push off and all look great, but it's all for show when the AI driving said goaltender is flat out ********.

Edit: holy crap score one for the PC crowd, apparently herp derp is a swear.

That's not contradicting because I'm talking specifically the way the movement and momentum the goalies have and not the AI behind them making saves. I wasn't focusing on the AI. However if you do want to talk AI then it's all about finding the proper AI to make the goalies play the way they should with the momentum and movement. Plus I haven't really seen too many problems in 2k8 where goalies make bad decisions. The rosters that have been released for that game have done a terrific job with ratings and sliders to make the goalies play smarter. I would have no problem what so ever if EA just copied 2k8's goalies over to their game. IMO it would be 100% better than what they have now.

[RealmK]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

That's not contradicting because I'm talking specifically the way the movement and momentum the goalies have and not the AI behind them making saves. I wasn't focusing on the AI. However if you do want to talk AI then it's all about finding the proper AI to make the goalies play the way they should with the momentum and movement. Plus I haven't really seen too many problems in 2k8 where goalies make bad decisions. The rosters that have been released for that game have done a terrific job with ratings and sliders to make the goalies play smarter. I would have no problem what so ever if EA just copied 2k8's goalies over to their game. IMO it would be 100% better than what they have now.

Interesting, you have an incoming PM, I don't want to further derail this thread.

[Siruss]

Tweaking goalies is so small in the grand scheme of the problem with this series. No matter what you do to the goalies, people are going to find the highest % shots (varies between 4-6 each year) and constantly go for them over and over and over. Remember the hook shot? Wrap around? Slap pass? Cross crease 1 timers? Breakaways where you'd score 90% of the time by taking a slap shot low glove side from 5 feet in front of the goalie? Then the simple forehand/backhand/forehand that worked on breakaways every time? The problem isn't goalie animations it's goalie AI. I play people all the time that do NOTHING except skate in circles until they can get down low and do a one-timer. Goalie animations are going to help there? No.
They need to fight the cheese and the visual glitches every year, and the they aren't winning that battle either. A slapshot with a red tail stops on a dime because of a broken stick. People doing 1 timers from a bad pass, where they are full extension with 1 hand on the stick, and blast it perfectly roofed over the goalies shoulder. How many times are you sitting there WAITING to intercept a pass, and it still just goes right by with no attempt. How many times do you lift stick only to have the other player retain control?
I also like to play on a locked position and the AI for the computer is horrible. It doesn't know if you're down by 1 with 20 seconds left, you retain possession and don't dump the puck. Or maybe how, even when being in perfect position for a pass, will take an opponent head on and lose the puck for no reason when there is myself, or another cpu player wide open waiting for a pass. Or the goalie playing the puck with the other team closing in, but he just stands there all casual and lets them poke check it away/in the net. OR he will just throw it over the boards for a penalty.
The problem here is that the game has actually regressed. There are never really any improvements. Some animations (which just make more visual glitches), and more broken promises. They actually removed the feature where you could set your roster offline and use it online. What game REMOVES features like that?
Goalie animations would fix like 5% of all the problems in this game. MAybe they finally did this, but they need to stop doing the gimmicks of goalie fights and hip checks, and fix and improve what they already have. If they paid attention to defail and tried to make the "most realistic spots game" rather than "the only hockey game", it would be a much better game. There's bugs and exploits that have been in the game for 6+ years and that should just be an embarassment to the studio.

[loso_34]

Re: NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

I think all the guy was trying to say is he would like the goalies to play more true to life. And for that i totally agree. 2k8 was light years ahead because of the physics and goalies actually using their momentum for better or worse. in the end the saves turned out to be organic and like i said earlier true to life. Ifyou appreciate hockey and not the virtual version why wouldnt you want goalies in EA to actually play like their real life counter parts. I just dont understand why you guys are arguing otherwise.