Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

[MPerry2008]

As a Red Wings fan and someone who thinks Osgood is a borderline Hall of Famer I thought it would be nice to see what other people think and the logic behind it.

I would put him in. He wasn't flashy, he was on good teams but Fuhr is in and played with Gretzky and Messier. Roy had some good teams in front of him, and the Devils until recently did not put a horrible product on the ice. He did not fall off much when he left Detroit and played for bad Blues and Islanders teams which he helped get into the playoffs. I think his numbers warrant it, and I think he should get in at some point. I do not think he is a first ballot Hall of Famer by any means, but he is Hall worthy from where I stand.

Osgood has 401 career victories which makes him 10th all-time in the NHL. That is only two behind Hall of Famer Grant Fuhr. He appeared in 744 games in 17 seasons and had a .905 save percentage, 2.49 goals-against average and 50 shutouts. Osgood was much better in the postseason, with a 74-49 record, .909 save percentage, 2.49 GAA and 15 shutouts in 129 games. That makes him 4th all time in playoff shutouts. He also won three Stanley Cups, two as a starter.

I think if you pull the numbers away from the team and his name he gets in but the numbers aren't everything.

Let the debate begin...

[pietasterp]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

First-ballot HoF'er in my heart!!!

Seriously...I don't see any compelling reason why he shouldn't be in. Every successful goaltender had some semblance of a legitimate team in front of them so I don't think that's a great knock against him, and based on the numbers, I would think it would be hard to make an argument against it. He wasn't flashy, but he was a top-tier 'tender for a long time. 400 wins alone ought to be a sort of magic number (like 500 homers or 3000 hits in baseball), and other than being 2 wins shy, he has better numbers across-the-board than does Fuhr (who played on way better teams than anything the Wings ever put together during their stretch). No doubt in my opinion. But then, I don't get to decide...

[IlliniM1ke]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

I think DrJones summed it up perfectly in the offseason thread so I'm going to go ahead and quote him here, I agree and IMO he isn't a HoF but I won't be surprised if he does get in eventually.

No Vezina wins, one Vezina nomination, one second-team All-Star, three All-Star games.

Did I ever want him anywhere near Team Canada? No. Did anyone putting together Team Canada want him anywhere near Team Canada? No.

Osgood will never get in the Hall of Fame as long as people who played against him or watched him play have anything to do with the voting process. Which is not to say he'll never get in. A decade or three down the road, some will look at the stats and wonder why he isn't in. Same goes for the likes of Pierre Turgeon and Phil Housley.

[MPerry2008]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

I think DrJones summed it up perfectly in the offseason thread so I'm going to go ahead and quote him here, I agree and IMO he isn't a HoF but I won't be surprised if he does get in eventually.

I think the Vezinas and Team Canada say a lot about the other goalies in this league. Brodeur, Roy, Luongo, Belfour (trying to stick with the Canadian theme). Also add Thomas who flails around effectively, Miller who has been one of the best since the lockout. I am not saying that he should have ever won any of those awards, but looking at those names they have all been more flashy in net. Osgood has always been buried, has never been in the spotlight and I do not think his numbers are why, it's the way he goes about his business. He just does his job, and does not need to be flashy.

I will say if he doesn't get in though, individual accolades will be part of the reason.

[pietasterp]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

I just saw that as well...I guess that answers my argument for compelling arguments against...

However, lack of Vezina wins shouldn't automatically exclude him from the conversation. Osgood has more wins than HoF'ers Johnny Bower, Turk Broda, Gerry Cheevers, Ken Dryden, Bernie Parent, Billy Smith and Gump Worsely. He has the same amount of Stanley Cups as Patrick Roy and a better career goals against average than Grant Fuhr.

Also, he happened to play in the same era as two of the greatest 'tenders of all time: Roy (puke) and Brodeur, which may account for his lack of Vezina's....but how does he compare with said HoF'ers (or future HoF'er in Marty)? (reference: hockey-reference.com)

Wins % avg GAA Save %

Roy 0.535 2.54 0.910

Brodeur 0.552 2.22 0.913

Osgood 0.539 2.49 0.905



Admittedly, Ozzie's sample size is smaller (by about 250-300 games), but shouldn't that count in the plus column as far as the 400-win plateau is concerned?

Three goalies have been inducted to the Hall in the past 20 years: Roy, Grant Fuhr and Billy Smith. Osgood has a better goals against average then all three of them, fewer losses, and is second only to Roy in save percentage.

I'm happy to defend Ozzie's career and hall credentials....I just hate that I have to.

[DrJones]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

I think the Vezinas and Team Canada say a lot about the other goalies in this league.

I think it says that GM's around the NHL never considered Osgood an elite goaltender. Only 3 ASG appearances when there are 3 spots available per conference every season? Put on waivers midway through his career? Sorry, but no. Good goalie who was in the right place at the right time and was willing to work cheap. Congrats to Osgood on a great story and a great career, but he's not a Hall of Famer.

Someone threw out Grant Fuhr's name as a comparison. 4 Stanley Cups as a starter, 1 Vezina, 2 Canada Cup championships (and the Commies in '84 and '87 were scary as hell).

EDIT: 4 rings, not 5.

[DrJones]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

I just saw that as well...I guess that answers my argument for compelling arguments against...

However, lack of Vezina wins shouldn't automatically exclude him from the conversation. Osgood has more wins than HoF'ers Johnny Bower, Turk Broda, Gerry Cheevers, Ken Dryden, Bernie Parent, Billy Smith and Gump Worsely. He has the same amount of Stanley Cups as Patrick Roy and a better career goals against average than Grant Fuhr.

Also, he happened to play in the same era as two of the greatest 'tenders of all time: Roy (puke) and Brodeur, which may account for his lack of Vezina's....but how does he compare with said HoF'ers (or future HoF'er in Marty)? (reference: hockey-reference.com)

Wins % avg GAA Save %

Roy 0.535 2.54 0.910

Brodeur 0.552 2.22 0.913

Osgood 0.539 2.49 0.905



Admittedly, Ozzie's sample size is smaller (by about 250-300 games), but shouldn't that count in the plus column as far as the 400-win plateau is concerned?

Three goalies have been inducted to the Hall in the past 20 years: Roy, Grant Fuhr and Billy Smith. Osgood has a better goals against average then all three of them, fewer losses, and is second only to Roy in save percentage.

I'm happy to defend Ozzie's career and hall credentials....I just hate that I have to.

Sorry, but when you throw in various goalie's GAA and SV% without factoring in the era and the team they played for, I don't think it's a compelling argument. If Osgood played for a middle-of-the-road team in the 1980s, he'd be fortunate to have a Greg Millen career. Not knocking him or you. If I was a Red Wings fan, I'd love the guy too. But I've never considered him one of the greatest goalies of his era. I've never wanted him on my team.

[DrJones]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

He did not fall off much when he left Detroit and played for bad Blues and Islanders teams which he helped get into the playoffs.

When Osgood left Detroit? The Wings put him on waivers. The Islanders you could make a case for, I suppose, though they eventually traded Osgood because he'd lost the starter's job to Garth Snow. But the early 2000s Pronger/MacInnis Blues teams were bad? No. Not to mention the immortal Roman Turek and Brent Johnson put up better numbers (and advanced past the first round of the playoffs to boot) in St. Louis before Osgood took over in net.

[Blaze125]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

I don't think he should get in, BUT I think he will sometime down the road in a weak class.

The reason I don't think he belongs in is because he was never one of THE goalies that was brought up in the era he played in. Yes, he played alongside some of the greatest goalies ever, but if he was a Hall of Famer wouldn't he have been mentioned among them? People didn't mention him alongside Brodeur, Roy, or Hasek not because he wasn't on their level, but because he never played the game in such a way that made you stop and watch in awe at his abilities.

Also, doesn't the fact that it's such a split debate hurt him? We look at players and right away can tell if they play at a hall of fame level right away, or at least have a very good chance. I can tell you right now that Brodeur, Crosby, and Lidstrom will be in the Hall, no questions asked. But there's such a divide on Osgood, and a lot of the pros seem to come from Wings fans (not that that's a bad thing).

As I said, I do think somewhere along the line he'll end up in. I don't think he deserves it, and I really wonder what the discussion would be like if he had ended his career with 399 wins instead of 401.

[MPerry2008]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

I have made my thoughts on his career clear. The Wings let him go via waivers but who did they go back to? I feel like Osgoods being waived had something to do with the coaches. Bowman clashed with players, and if I were the Wings I would take a coach over one player, especially at that point in Osgood's career.

I also think him not being flashy, and not gluing peoples eyes to the TV is the biggest reason. If he was flashy and had a highlight reel career to accompany these numbers no one would debate a thing. It's not just about what you do, its how you get there, I think this is proof of that. And speaking of eras, since the lockout the league has been made to favor forwards not goalies.

I like Ozzie. He has been one of my favorite players to watch. To be fair on that though, I hate the way some goalies play, i.e. I cannot stand Thomas, or Luongo's flailing. I put myself out of position then do well YAY!

I am not here to defend him, fact is I have an opinion which I will stand by. I think the fact that it is a debate says it will take some time if he gets in. Fact is I am just curious what other opinions are out there both for and against.

[DrJones]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

I have made my thoughts on his career clear. The Wings let him go via waivers but who did they go back to?

A reliable backup the Wings could sign for under a million bucks to get under the cap so they could spend their money on better players. Hey, Osgood provided excellent value for the money. But it's not as if he turned down millions to go back to Detroit. Osgood never attracted much attention when he was a free agent because nobody considered him to be a difference maker.

[pietasterp]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

Sorry, but when you throw in various goalie's GAA and SV% without factoring in the era and the team they played for, I don't think it's a compelling argument. If Osgood played for a middle-of-the-road team in the 1980s, he'd be fortunate to have a Greg Millen career. Not knocking him or you. If I was a Red Wings fan, I'd love the guy too. But I've never considered him one of the greatest goalies of his era. I've never wanted him on my team.

Yes, I will grant you that it is hard to compare numbers across eras...but Brodeur and Roy were his contemporaries, it's not like they played 25 years apart - I mean, they were all in the league at the same time. If anything, the fact that Brodeur played a lot of his heyday in the left-wing-lock 1-0 grind-it-out era in Jersey (prior to the lockout rules changes) makes his GAA slightly less impressive.

I feel like Osgood is overlooked because he didn't play a spectacular brand of hockey; he didn't have the signature butterflies of Hasek or the leather-flashing of Roy, just solid positional netminding. He more-or-less kept his mouth shut for the better part of his career. He was a boring interview. He's like Scottie Pippen in some ways; if you look at the numbers, there's really no doubt, but because he played in the shadow of MJ, people had to bend over backward to make an argument for the guy when he never should've needed an argument from anyone in the first place. I see Osgood as Alan Trammell and Roy as Ozzie Smith; both great shorstops, but if you look at the numbers, there's no doubt who should be in. Oh, but one guy did backflips through the infield and made flashier plays, while the other kept his head down and went to work blue-collar style...BTW, guess who had a higher BA, HR total, OPS, WAR, and - surprise - identical fielding percentage? Yet one guy was a 1st ballot HoF'er and the other is going to have his candidacy elapse...sorry, another sore spot for me, but that's for a different forum.

I feel like people are just ignoring numbers and data because Osgood just doesn't "feel" like a Hall of Fame guy (which I also feel to some extent, BTW)...but you can't just say stats and numbers don't mean anything just because a guy didn't make your hair stand on end. I get that his individual accolades are lacking (which I will grant you is a compelling counter-argument), but that stuff is almost entirely subjective. The raw data is not. I think you either do or do not respect the statistics in these types of decisions; whether or not people individually felt the guy was Hall-worthy or not really shouldn't come into play. If we've learned nothing else from Bill James and Billy Beane, it should be that your eyes will fool you; the spreadsheet will not.

[DrJones]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

Yes, I will grant you that it is hard to compare numbers across eras...but Brodeur and Roy were his contemporaries, it's not like they played 25 years apart - I mean, they were all in the league at the same time. If anything, the fact that Brodeur played a lot of his heyday in the left-wing-lock 1-0 grind-it-out era in Jersey (prior to the lockout rules changes) makes his GAA slightly less impressive.

Patrick Roy had already cemented a spot in the Hall of Fame before the Dead Puck Era began. I've stated before that Brodeur is overrated. He played for the best defensive team ever in the most defensive era ever in a low-pressure market. However, unlike Osgood, Brodeur has been an unquestioned #1 his entire career. Brodeur started 70+ games 13 times in his career. Osgood topped 60 starts only 3 times. Brodeur also didn't have a half-dozen HoF forwards to give him support.

I feel like Osgood is overlooked because he didn't play a spectacular brand of hockey; he didn't have the signature butterflies of Hasek or the leather-flashing of Roy, just solid positional netminding.

By whom? All non-Detroit fans? All the GM's that decided Vezina nominations, spots in the All-Star Game, invites to Team Canada camp? I've watched hockey for 30 years, and have no particular grudge against Osgood (unlike Billy Smith or Fuhr or Belfour, for example). Have I really deluded myself all this time?

He more-or-less kept his mouth shut for the better part of his career. He was a boring interview.

Evidence? He didn't have issues like Roy, Belfour, or Hasek, but Osgood was often praised for being a good interview. I've seen several articles today with the theme of, "If there's a Hall of Fame for candour, Ozzie's a shoo-in." I think Osgood is seen by most in the hockey community as a likeable (at least late in his career), down-to-earth guy, in the Tim Thomas vein.

He's like Scottie Pippen in some ways; if you look at the numbers, there's really no doubt, but because he played in the shadow of MJ, people had to bend over backward to make an argument for the guy when he never should've needed an argument from anyone in the first place.

Cross-sports comparisons are even tougher, but it's clear that Pippen was the 2nd best player on 6 championship teams. On Osgood's 2 championship teams (sorry, I don't really count backups in this discussion), was he even one of Detroit's five best players? Maybe '08, certainly not '98.When Osgood got waived in 2001, did anybody (even Wings fans) say, "What the hell is Detroit doing? They're getting rid of one of the best goalies in the league, only 29 years old, for nothing!!"

I see Osgood as Alan Trammell and Roy as Ozzie Smith; both great shorstops, but if you look at the numbers, there's no doubt who should be in. Oh, but one guy did backflips through the infield and made flashier plays, while the other kept his head down and went to work blue-collar style...BTW, guess who had a higher BA, HR total, OPS, WAR, and - surprise - identical fielding percentage? Yet one guy was a 1st ballot HoF'er and the other is going to have his candidacy elapse...sorry, another sore spot for me, but that's for a different forum.

Apples and oranges, but yes, I believe that Trammell should be in the Hall of Fame along with Ozzie Smith. Fielding percentage is bogus, though. Ozzie had superior range and was a better defensive SS. No knocking Trammell, who was obviously a better hitter while also being excellent defensively.

I feel like people are just ignoring numbers and data because Osgood just doesn't "feel" like a Hall of Fame guy (which I also feel to some extent, BTW)...but you can't just say stats and numbers don't mean anything just because a guy didn't make your hair stand on end. I get that his individual accolades are lacking (which I will grant you is a compelling counter-argument), but that stuff is almost entirely subjective. The raw data is not. I think you either do or do not respect the statistics in these types of decisions; whether or not people individually felt the guy was Hall-worthy or not really shouldn't come into play. If we've learned nothing else from Bill James and Billy Beane, it should be that your eyes will fool you; the spreadsheet will not.

Baseball isn't hockey. It's much, much easier to use stats to determine a baseball player's worth (especially hitting and pitching) because it's a series of individual confrontations. A hockey goalie's stats are very much influenced by the team and the era, and to this date there hasn't been enough sabermetric work done in hockey to eliminate the need for "feel". Goalie numbers in particular are misleading. Remember my crack about Roman Turek above? His career GAA is 2.31! Roman Cechmanek? 2.08! Patrick Lalime is 3rd all-time in career save percentage in the playoffs (.926). Yikes! James and Beane (nice guy, BTW) wouldn't accept those numbers at face value, no more than they would batting average or pitching wins or ERA. They'd want context. How crucial were these guys to the team's success? How would they fare with league-average "fielders" and "run support"?

When it comes to the Hockey Hall of Fame, I favour peak value over compiling. I don't think that Osgood's peak value was ever very high, given that he was rarely a clear #1 goalie, lost the starter's job several times, was never considered among the elite goaltenders by his peers, was never seriously considered for international play, was never heavily pursued as a free agent or offered a big-money contract.

I don't think Osgood would have had a successful career for a non-contender, and I don't believe that his presence made Detroit a contender. I don't think he was a difference-maker. If I had to choose a goalie to win an important game for me, and I had no idea about how good my team was, or how good my opponent's team was, Osgood wouldn't be high on my list. Yes, I'm using my "gut" to some degree because I've watched a lot of hockey over the last 3 decades and I have yet to discover a hockey equivalent to FIP. For the record, I don't support Cujo for the Hall of Fame either. I think there were only four goalies in this era who deserve enshrinement: Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, and Belfour. I respect your argument, but I don't agree. I'll leave it at that.

[Money99]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

I have to agree with Dr.Jones.
I don't think Osgood is Hall-of-Fame material.
He played on a few HOF teams and with his numbers and Cup rings, he'll get in (if Neely gets in, then Ozzie gets in).

I usually try to base a players HOF credentials based on what that player accomplished against other players at the same position in the same era.

At no time was Osgood ever considered a top-5 goalie during his prime. Heck, some might not even consider top-10 material.
He was a solid goalie on incredible teams. And unlike some of his contemporaries like Roy or Hasek, I don't feel that Osgood ever stole a series in his career.
Every time the Wings got outplayed by an opponent they lost. But every wings fan knows there were many series' where we outplayed the other team but still lost.
Also, in the years he helped us win Cups, Detroit probably still would have won with 10 other goalies in net.
Not sure recent teams like Col, NJ, Bos, Car, etc could say the same thing.

That's what makes me feel that Ozzie doesn't deserve to be in the Hall.
He was a good goalie for the sort of teams Detroit assembled, but he was never, and will never be considered one of the best goalies in his era. And for that, I wouldn't put him in.

But I'm not in charge and that's why I think the Hall will call his name eventually based on his stats and Cup victories.

[kerosene31]

Re: Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer?

I don't see him as HoF material at all. He was a good goalie who did his job in the playoffs. I never imagine him as one of the best though, not even close.