The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

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  • SidVish
    2010,13,15,16 CHAMPS!
    • Apr 2003
    • 11743

    #526
    Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread



    On NHL Suspensions And Eggshell Skulls
    Shea Weber shoves Henrik Zetterberg's head into the glass: fine, no suspension. Byron Bitz hits Kyle Clifford from behind, sending him into the boards: two-game suspension. Matt Carkner sucker punches Brian Boyle, continuing to hit him after he goes down: one-game suspension. Carl Hagelin elbows Daniel Alfredsson in the head: three-game suspension.

    Consistency is always elusive from the NHL's department of player safety, but the playoffs are a whole new arbitrary world. Fans would love to believe Brendan Shanahan consults a Rosetta Stone of Discipline, but through five days of hockey and four punishable offenses, every touchstones we thought we knew now seems worthless.

    It's not about a player's history. Carkner got in trouble for an almost identical offense back in December, while Hagelin has never been in trouble with the league before.

    It's not about protecting stars. While Alfredsson is the man in Ottawa, Zetterberg is Detroit's points leader on the year.

    It's not about sparing players based on star power. While Weber got off, Hagelin is the left wing on New York's top line, and the highest scoring line in hockey over the last month-plus of the season.

    So unless you believe that Carkner's offense was half as egregious as Bitz's, and a third as bad as Hagelin's, and Weber's wasn't suspendable at all (and hockey message boards, always havens of cold rationality, aren't buying it), there has to be some common thread that legitimizes the varied Shanabans. There is, and it's all about the results. Kyle Clifford has missed two games with his injury. Daniel Alfredsson missed the remainder of his game, and may be questionable for tomorrow. (Playoff questionable means "upper body injury," which could be anything from a hangnail to a subdural hematoma.) Zetterberg and Boyle were fine.

    Want proof it matters? Brendan Shanahan, on Weber's transgression:

    "I looked at that one and I'm not happy with that play," Shanahan said. "I investigated that hit. I called Detroit that night. I think that (Weber) pushed (Zetterberg's) face in the glass. I was really close to a one-game suspension on that and when I talked to Detroit and I talked to (Ken Holland) he basically said the player was fine."

    There's something very Old Testament about punishing not the act, not the intent, but the resulting damage. But it's also a near-universal feature of common law that a plaintiff should be compensated, or a defendant punished, for the harm actually caused—even if that harm was out of proportion to the harm that could be reasonably expected. In Vosburg v. Putney, an 11-year-old kicked a 14-year-old in the shin in class. Because of an unknown preexisting condition, the older boy ended up losing his leg. The Court found the young boy liable, upholding and setting the precedent of the "eggshell skull rule." If a victim has a brittle skull, and an innocuous punch shatters it, the liability is all the defendant's.

    Punish the results, not the intent. That's what the NHL does, even if they've never articulated it in so many words. It has to be, unless you can buy that Weber wasn't trying to hurt Zetterberg by smashing his face into the glass, or that Carkner's seven punches on a defenseless player were less malicious than hard checks from Bitz and Hagelin. And you know what? Maybe it's not a bad way to legislate. If one team loses a player for some length of time, shouldn't the team that caused it be down a man as well? Eye-for-an-eye, scratch-for-a-scratch is nothing if not satisfying, and it was good enough for Hammurabi and good enough for our own justice system. Murder is punished more harshly than attempted murder, even if the intent is identical.

    The flaw in results-based discipline is that it's purely reactionary, and not the proactive style the league has promised in this era of concussion awareness. If the NHL were solely concerned about eliminating injury, intent would be the most important factor, and deterrence the goal. But Shanahan has conflicting concerns. He has to mitigate the prospect of injuries, while also maintaining hockey as a physical, hitting sport. (Imagine the sport if hard checks were verboten. The same message board denizens screaming for harsher penalties for Weber and Carkner would go into conniptions.) So what's left is a disciplinary system that doesn't make everyone happy, but maintains cosmic fairness while keeping hockey bloody and brutal. If it's true that a good compromise leaves everyone unhappy, punishing players for damage done is the best compromise available.
    Last edited by SidVish; 04-16-2012, 09:37 AM.
    "You got it man. I don't watch hockey." SidVish
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    Comment

    • jyoung
      Hall Of Fame
      • Dec 2006
      • 11132

      #527
      Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

      Originally posted by Stormyhog
      Did you guys see the fans shirt behind the Canucks bench? It read " The Sedin sisters 2 girls no cup" lol

      Comment

      • rdnk
        All Star
        • Feb 2009
        • 5730

        #528
        Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

        And to think Shanahan could have nipped this all in the butt by dropping the hammer on Weber...

        The only way there should be an amnesty clause is if there is something in the new CBA to make it much tougher to do those long term deals with the front loaded money. Basically, let each team get out of one bad deal they signed, then make it next to impossible to sign one of those crazy long deals.

        Did anyone else hear about Jeremy Welsh's contract with the 18 M cap hit?

        I would argue that Booth shouldn't be considered part of the Canucks core. He just isn't the same player pre-head shots.
        Ottawa Senator's Dynasty (NHL 09)
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        • Perceptor
          MVP
          • Jun 2003
          • 4364

          #529
          Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

          Bruins better score some goals. Holtby playing well, but I worry about their scoring.

          Gotta love Toews playing at some level after coming back. If he had stayed healthy, I think he'd be in the running for the Hart Trophy. He's such a great player and Hawks are a much better team with him. I loved watching Hossa, Kane, and Toews together, but they do need to spread out the depth

          Comment

          • DrJones
            All Star
            • Mar 2003
            • 9109

            #530
            Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

            Originally posted by rdnk
            I would argue that Booth shouldn't be considered part of the Canucks core. He just isn't the same player pre-head shots.
            Oh, I agree. Just a reflection that because of his contract and (relative) value, I don't see him going anywhere. He'll be a top-6 guy next year, whether he fully lives up to that status or not. Whereas I can see Ballard, with a similar contract/cap hit, getting "Redden'd" by the Canucks.
            Originally posted by Thrash13
            Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
            Originally posted by slickdtc
            DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
            Originally posted by Kipnis22
            yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

            Comment

            • DrJones
              All Star
              • Mar 2003
              • 9109

              #531
              Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

              LOL. That reminded me of junior high, when older, bigger kids would bump little Grade 8's from locker to locker like a pinball. Difference being, of course, that most of the time, the Grade 8's didn't fall down.
              Originally posted by Thrash13
              Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
              Originally posted by slickdtc
              DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
              Originally posted by Kipnis22
              yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

              Comment

              • pietasterp
                All Star
                • Feb 2004
                • 6244

                #532
                Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

                Anyone think either of the teams down 0-3 can come back?

                Comment

                • pietasterp
                  All Star
                  • Feb 2004
                  • 6244

                  #533
                  Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

                  Originally posted by DrJones
                  LOL. That reminded me of junior high, when older, bigger kids would bump little Grade 8's from locker to locker like a pinball. Difference being, of course, that most of the time, the Grade 8's didn't fall down.
                  Is junior high in Canada not 6th-8th grade (meaning 8th-graders would be the oldest/biggest kids in junior high)?

                  Comment

                  • ThePPL
                    MVP
                    • Jun 2008
                    • 1030

                    #534
                    Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

                    Originally posted by pietasterp
                    Is junior high in Canada not 6th-8th grade (meaning 8th-graders would be the oldest/biggest kids in junior high)?
                    I'm assuming DrJones is referring to high schools in Canada. High schools in most Canadian regions begin in grade 8 to grade 12.

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                    • Bdubb
                      In Bill we trust
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 1014

                      #535
                      Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread




                      Haha on another note Bruins and Caps game at 730, need some scoring from both sides. I don't feel like grinding my teeth in a 0-0 game in OT.

                      Comment

                      • IlliniM1ke
                        Heroes Never Die
                        • Feb 2003
                        • 8082

                        #536
                        Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

                        Originally posted by pietasterp
                        Anyone think either of the teams down 0-3 can come back?
                        They both have the talent to do so but not sure, I think Pittsburgh is 100% done, Philly is in their heads big time as evidenced by yesterdays game especially, if they managed to come back and win this (or even take it to 7) I would be shocked.

                        Vancouver I don't know, I would think they could just because after watching the Hawks play them so many times the past few years I never would have expected they'd be down 0-3 in any series. They usually play great hockey all around, but something is definitely off this year. Obviously Daniel being out hurts a ton but even with him being out I didn't expect they'd look this bad.

                        The Canucks know first hand its not over just because a team has a 3-0 lead, they saw Chicago take them to the brink last year after they had their own 3-0 series lead but I'm not sure if Vancouver has the mental toughness to pull it out, they seem to really go into a shell when the going gets tough (especially if Luongo gets the start in game 4 and I would imagine he will).
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                        • ImTellinTim
                          YNWA
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 33028

                          #537
                          Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

                          Originally posted by pietasterp
                          Anyone think either of the teams down 0-3 can come back?
                          I don't think either team will, but if I had to pick one that was more likely to pull it off it would be Pittsburgh. Philly's defense and goaltending have been horrible, so if MAF can get hot (I couldn't type that without laughing), they can win 4 in a row. I don't see Quick and that Kings D giving up enough goals to an offense that isn't clicking in 4 straight games.

                          Comment

                          • pietasterp
                            All Star
                            • Feb 2004
                            • 6244

                            #538
                            Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

                            Ouch!



                            Accurate, IMO, though. Also more people saying that the NHL's old guard have somehow "gotten" to Shanny. Must be some truth in there somewhere...

                            Comment

                            • SPTO
                              binging
                              • Feb 2003
                              • 68046

                              #539
                              Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

                              Originally posted by pietasterp
                              Anyone think either of the teams down 0-3 can come back?
                              Nope....The Canucks are in a bad situation IMO. Luongo is a good goaltender but he's just not a good playoff goalie. Can't fully blame him this time around as the Kings are playing a shutdown game and Quick has been standing on his head.

                              As for the Pens, they're toast. The Flyers are in their heads and it's clear that it's affecting their performance. Who knew that this series would be so lopsided in some ways?
                              Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

                              "Baseball is the most important thing that doesn't matter at all" - Robert B. Parker

                              Comment

                              • RealmK
                                Banned
                                • Sep 2003
                                • 4198

                                #540
                                Re: The Official 2012 Stanley Cup Playoffs Thread

                                Originally posted by Bdubb



                                Haha on another note Bruins and Caps game at 730, need some scoring from both sides. I don't feel like grinding my teeth in a 0-0 game in OT.
                                Bruins need to get bodies to the front of the net, they haven't done that at all the first two games. If Holtby can see it, the kid is solid enough with positional saves that he's going to stop it.

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