Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly.

[mikemj23]

I know that we are all hopeful that Tiger 10 is going to be a more realistic game. My biggest problem over the years has been how easy the game is. Obviously, shooting in the 50's consistently is far from realistic, but from what I've read so far, it seems that the game will hopefully be trending towards making things much more realistic when it comes to scoring, club distances, putting etc.

Having said that, I heard an interesting interview on the PGA Tour Network this morning at The Players Championship that pretty much sums up the lack of challenge/realism of the Tiger Woods series.

They were interviewing Rory McIlroy and he has never played Sawgrass before. He is 19 and they asked him if playing the course in a video game over the years has helped him at all. Here is what he said (not exact quote but very close) :

"The game isn't realistic at all. For example, in the game, on 11 I would hit driver, 7 iron and yesterday in my practice round I hit driver, 5 wood. It hasn't helped at all because it isn't realistic."

Sawgrass in the TW series has ALWAYS been a very easy track for me. You talk to the guys on Tour and it's one of the most difficult tests in golf.

Here's hoping that somehow TW 10 and beyond can make the experience more realistic.

[GrandMaster B]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

Maybe Rory isn't playing on Tour difficulty. lol

[paulitix]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

Also, allowing multiple goes at a tournament round is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. One bad round can make or break a tourney, so allowing someone to submit their best round is absolute crap. As far as I'm concerned, online tourneys should only be in Tour Pro....or at least, at least turn the damn putt preview off.

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

I still don't like choices made by the designers. Pros generally don't like to hit a straight ball but in this game a perfect shot is always straight. How often do you hear while watching a tournament "this pin position sets up perfectly for X's natural fade" or "Y's draw is going to make it hard to get close here?" I think the club tuner tries to address this but really the big question players should face when making their character is what is my character's natural shot shape? Low draw, high draw, relatively straight, power fade, etc. Are they good at improvising different shots like Tiger or do they have to stick with their bread and butter shot? Maybe someday.

[DivotMaker]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

I still don't like choices made by the designers.

Please show me any other Golf game that does this differently?

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

Mario Golf and Hot Shots give each character draw/straight/fade bias and trajectory differences. I haven't played Hot Shots in a while but I know in Mario Golf a character with a draw would be better at adding additional draw and pretty terrible at trying to fade the ball. JN6 had something similar to the way TW's club tuner lets you tweak trajectories. Is it too much to ask for things to progress? TW's guys don't strike me as particularly creative, they make a pretty game with very vanilla gameplay.

[DivotMaker]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

Mario Golf and Hot Shots give each character draw/straight/fade bias and trajectory differences. I haven't played Hot Shots in a while but I know in Mario Golf a character with a draw would be better at adding additional draw and pretty terrible at trying to fade the ball. JN6 had something similar to the way TW's club tuner lets you tweak trajectories. Is it too much to ask for things to progress? TW's guys don't strike me as particularly creative, they make a pretty game with very vanilla gameplay.

Sorry, never played either of those "kiddie" Golf games.

In TW09, you can create a draw or fade bias in Club Tuner.....

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

Kiddie games? What makes them kiddie games? I have to assume it's the graphics? I don't think TW's gameplay is any better than a number of games that have come out in the past decade (including those two). Are you playing video games for the gaming aspect or to see pretty things move on the screen? How do you even come around here and tout TW every year when you haven't at least been acquainted with the competition?

[DivotMaker]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

Kiddie games? What makes them kiddie games? I have to assume it's the graphics? I don't think TW's gameplay is any better than a number of games that have come out in the past decade (including those two). Are you playing video games for the gaming aspect or to see pretty things move on the screen? How do you even come around here and tout TW every year when you haven't at least been acquainted with the competition?

EASY there....just as you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. First of all, I do not have a PS3 nor a Wii, so playing these games is pretty much out of the question.

Secondly, I have seen screenshots of each game and the graphics are fine, but the characters and the touches to the game scream "kiddie" to me. I have heard the gameplay is good in each one and have never criticized either title except to state that they are not my cup of tea. Sorry to offend your delicate sensitivities.

Thirdly, I do NOT come here "touting TW". I come here to answer questions and give feedback when there are questions about the game. I do not hype the game whatsoever and if you had cared to notice, I DO agree with many who criticize the game for its shortcomings. I disagreed with your opinion above because what you stated about TW09 was categorically false about not being able to set up a swing as a draw or fade......now you want to start over and do this without getting all riled up and making false accusations?

[mikemj23]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

EASY there....just as you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. First of all, I do not have a PS3 nor a Wii, so playing these games is pretty much out of the question.

Secondly, I have seen screenshots of each game and the graphics are fine, but the characters and the touches to the game scream "kiddie" to me. I have heard the gameplay is good in each one and have never criticized either title except to state that they are not my cup of tea. Sorry to offend your delicate sensitivities.

Thirdly, I do NOT come here "touting TW". I come here to answer questions and give feedback when there are questions about the game. I do not hype the game whatsoever and if you had cared to notice, I DO agree with many who criticize the game for its shortcomings. I disagreed with your opinion above because what you stated about TW09 was categorically false about not being able to set up a swing as a draw or fade......now you want to start over and do this without getting all riled up and making false accusations?

Divot - I think what he was trying to say (and I think it's actually a very interesting point) is that in Hot Shots Golf (never played Mario Golf so can't and won't speak to it) each character has "natural attributes" right out of the gate. For example : one golfer might have a swing that sets up a low draw, the next golfer might have a swing that sets up a high fade etc. In the case of the low draw golfer, it makes it much more difficult to get it close to a pin that's right front tucked behind a trap and for the high fade player it is much more difficult on a dogleg left that necessitates a draw on the tee shot to be set up in optimal position for your 2nd shot. It's not that you can't pull off these shots but the risk/reward (just like in real life) is greater.

In the TW series every character's optimal or "natural" ball flight is dead straight which makes hitting draws/fades equal. The more I think about this the more I like the idea. Give all of the pros (Tiger included) natural or optimal ball flight characteristics (because they all have them) and go from there. When we create ourselves, make us choose an option that sets up natural ball flight based off of our swing. I hit a high draw in real life, so that's what I would choose. My high draw makes hitting a cut much more difficult and I am more apt to shoot for the center of the green on a hole with the pin tucked front right.

This is something I never thought about, but it makes a heck of a lot of sense.

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

EASY there....just as you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. First of all, I do not have a PS3 nor a Wii, so playing these games is pretty much out of the question.

Secondly, I have seen screenshots of each game and the graphics are fine, but the characters and the touches to the game scream "kiddie" to me. I have heard the gameplay is good in each one and have never criticized either title except to state that they are not my cup of tea. Sorry to offend your delicate sensitivities.

Thirdly, I do NOT come here "touting TW". I come here to answer questions and give feedback when there are questions about the game. I do not hype the game whatsoever and if you had cared to notice, I DO agree with many who criticize the game for its shortcomings. I disagreed with your opinion above because what you stated about TW09 was categorically false about not being able to set up a swing as a draw or fade......now you want to start over and do this without getting all riled up and making false accusations?

You are most certainly entitled to your opinion. Having said that, am I not entitled to question your opinion if there is cause to do so? You asked me to give an example of any golf game that gives various characters different swing traits and I supplied two series that do just that. Then you dismissed both series as being "kiddie" (which I interpret is an implied dig against them) but you also say you haven't actually played either. Both series are generally well regarded but you appear to have judged them by their looks without even giving them any shot at all. I don't think that's particularly fair to them.

[DivotMaker]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

You are most certainly entitled to your opinion. Having said that, am I not entitled to question your opinion if there is cause to do so? You asked me to give an example of any golf game that gives various characters different swing traits and I supplied two series that do just that. Then you dismissed both series as being "kiddie" (which I interpret is an implied dig against them) but you also say you haven't actually played either. Both series are generally well regarded but you appear to have judged them by their looks without even giving them any shot at all. I don't think that's particularly fair to them.

You questioned my integrity by claiming that I come here to "tout Tiger Woods" and I certainly do nothing of the sort.

I have judged the other games as games I have no interest in. I call them "kiddie" games because it is obvious that they are reaching out to a different market than Tiger which comes with the PGA TOUR license. That is not a knock on either game as they do well with the market they intend to sell to. I am not a customer they are interested in.

As far as the characters having certain attributes, TW09 lets you decide this for yourself. However, in the case of the Pro Golfers, this is not possible I don't believe, but it IS doable with your own character or any other characters you create. hence my prior response that this can be done in Club Tuner which gives you more flexibility than with the other games. Sorry I was not up to speed with other console Golf games as I am primarity a PC golfer and to this date, I am not aware of ANY PC Golf game that has this feature. Neither of us qualified our responses with respect to the different platforms.....

[Zalf]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

The main designer decision that I disagree with in respect to difficulty is a perfectly straight swing means a perfectly straight ball every single time on every single club. The whole targeting circle should indicate the possible landing area for a perfectly hit shot. The circle should vary in size depending on the club, golfer skill, type of shot and situation.

Driver would have a wide circle while a 9 iron would have a much smaller circle. Right now I really have no reason to go with 3-Wood over Driver. A straight swing is going to put the ball EXACTLY where I aim it with either club and a bad swing is going to produce pretty much the same degree of shank with either.

Right now the only thing Golfer Skill really impacts is distance. They have the skill system set up that could potentially offer some depth but they don't give it any really impact. Straight swing equals pinpoint accuracy no matter what.

If the targeting circle offered any real variety you could use that to set up various swings that would actually make each golfer different. Set your golfer up with a natural draw swing. The targeting circle is largest when hitting a draw and gets progressively smaller as you move away from that natural draw. Right now setting up for a natural draw just means that's how your shot shape is going to default. You can switch over to a hard fade or slice without any penalty. So no matter how you set up the default swing every golfer has the same success with every shot shape.

Situation would be more difficult to get right but it would definitely fit into the tournament type atmosphere they are pushing for this time around. Anyone watching The Players last weekend knows that wedge shot into 17 is different from any other wedge shot. With the game right now, it is the same as every other wedge shot every single time. It will hit exactly where you aim with a straight swing. Imagine how the game would play if the target circle = "A perfect swing will land somewhere in this circle" and the circle got bigger the closer you aimed for the edge of the green at Sawgrass 17 or it got bigger the more you tried to cut the corner at Sawgrass 18 and it got bigger still playing 17 or 18 in the final round with a 2 shot lead. Now that would be tournament golf.

I understand why the designers set it up the way they did but if they want to be the non-"kiddie" golf game they need to accept and embrace the sim part of the game. Even pre-surgery Tiger couldn't place a dollar bill 300 yards out and hit it every time he made a good swing. My golfer; and every other TW golfer; can. That just isn't golf. And there is no Risk/Reward without the Risk.

Without the Risk you get rounds in the 40's and 50's like we see with every online tournament. The same 40's and 50's we will see in TW10 online tournaments if a straight swing still equals a pinpoint shot every time with every club. The only defense to that is unrealistic green speeds and wind conditions. Skill caps aren't going to change anything if pinpoint accuracy is still there. You can skill cap to the point you have to hit driver into every green and people will still shoot in the 40's and 50's if you give them pinpoint accuracy with that driver from the fairway.

[mikemj23]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

[QUOTE=Zalf;2039565598]

Situation would be more difficult to get right but it would definitely fit into the tournament type atmosphere they are pushing for this time around. Anyone watching The Players last weekend knows that wedge shot into 17 is different from any other wedge shot. With the game right now, it is the same as every other wedge shot every single time. It will hit exactly where you aim with a straight swing. Imagine how the game would play if the target circle = "A perfect swing will land somewhere in this circle" and the circle got bigger the closer you aimed for the edge of the green at Sawgrass 17 or it got bigger the more you tried to cut the corner at Sawgrass 18 and it got bigger still playing 17 or 18 in the final round with a 2 shot lead. Now that would be tournament golf.

Zalf - very strong points. One would think that there has to be a way to incorporate in a non-gimmicky way the situation you noted above.

[OnlookerDelay]

Re: Heard something this morning that sums up the lack of diff over the yrs perfectly

Zalf, you make an excellent point! Ironically though, EA Sports has already done what you're talking about in Tiger Woods 07, on the XBox 360 and PS3. I thought it worked well, but apparently they got enough feedback complaining about it to drop it. I've never heard anyone from EA Sports comment on why it was taken out of the game.