Greatest Race driver of all time?

[forensicd]

Who would you list as the greatest pure race driver of all time? My list includes AJ Foyt as well as Tony Stewart. Both are pure race drivers to the core, and anything with wheels on it they would race. Tony has won in so many divisions its insane (sprints, midgets, nascar, busch, irl, carts, modifides, stock cars, silver crown, etc). AJ foyt is in essence an older version of this, winning in all types of divisions. I look at the greats like Senna, Andretti, Schumi, Earnahrdt, and others, but they really accelled in their specific division. If you put schumi in a sprinter or a nascar, could he do what Tony has done? So much in f1 is based onthe quality of your machine, as Schumi was evidence of that this year. Ihave seen tony get in a beat up midegt, run the tires off it and pull out a win over a car that was 3 times the machine his was. So, in terms of PURE racing talent, who would you put first?

[mercalnd]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

Who would you list as the greatest pure race driver of all time? My list includes AJ Foyt as well as Tony Stewart. Both are pure race drivers to the core, and anything with wheels on it they would race. Tony has won in so many divisions its insane (sprints, midgets, nascar, busch, irl, carts, modifides, stock cars, silver crown, etc). AJ foyt is in essence an older version of this, winning in all types of divisions. I look at the greats like Senna, Andretti, Schumi, Earnahrdt, and others, but they really accelled in their specific division. If you put schumi in a sprinter or a nascar, could he do what Tony has done? So much in f1 is based onthe quality of your machine, as Schumi was evidence of that this year. Ihave seen tony get in a beat up midegt, run the tires off it and pull out a win over a car that was 3 times the machine his was. So, in terms of PURE racing talent, who would you put first?

Gilles Villeneuve. His career was short but he could drive like no one else. He would have won the 1979 F1 championship if not for his loyalty to his teammate. Have you ever seen his battle with Arnoux in Dijon 79. To this day I haven't seen anything quite like it. Think Bristol style trading paint in F1 cars on a road course.

[pk500]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

Jim Clark.

-- Won F1 World Championship in two of his eight full seasons, in 1963 and 1965. Second in '62, third in '64 and '67.
-- Won 25 of his 72 F1 starts, a 35 percent win rate.
-- Won pole in 33 of his 72 F1 starts, a 46 percent pole rate.
-- Started on front row in 48 of his 72 F1 starts, a 67 percent rate.
-- Recorded fastest lap of the race in 28 of his 72 starts, a 39 percent rate.
-- Involved in only THREE accidents during his F1 career (1960-68).

Despite all of those numbers, the most amazing stat of Clark's F1 career to me is that he finished second only ONCE. In other words, if the car didn't break, chances are Clark won.

He recorded 25 victories and had only seven other podium finishes among his 72 starts. If the car was running at the finish, it was almost a certainty that Clark would be on the top step of the podium. He was that transcendent in an F1 car.

But F1 was only part of Clark's brilliance and versatility.

He made five Indianapolis 500 starts, winning in 1965 and finishing second as a rookie in 1963 and second again in 1966. He won the pole in 1964 at Indy.

Clark also won the Tasman Cup for open-wheel cars in New Zealand against all of the top names in the sport in 1965 and 1967. He won the British Touring Car Championship in 1964. He was a winner in national-level sports cars, touring cars and rallying in Britain, and he competed in a select number of NASCAR races in the mid-1960s.

And as for seasons in motor racing, few could ever top Clark's 1965. He won the World Championship for the second time, won the Indianapolis 500, destroyed the field to win the Tasman Cup, won the French F2 national championship, won races in a Lotus Cortina touring car and even won sports car races in a Lotus 30.

For an example of Clark's dominance in 1965, he won the Belgian Grand Prix at the mighty Spa circuit by a minute over Jackie Stewart. Clark lapped the rest of the field, guys like World Champions Jack Brabham and Graham Hill.

The statistics behind Clark's career are staggering. But they're even more impressive when you figure Clark raced only until he was 32, as he was killed in a crash in April 1968 in a Formula 2 race at Hockenheim. Who knows how much longer Clark would have raced, as he was very shy and unassuming and didn't at all like the attention that his success created.

But when you look at his success in a variety of cars, there's absolutely no question in my mind that Jim Clark was the greatest race driver ever to lay his hands on the steering wheel and his right foot on the accelerator.

Good thread, by the way!

Take care,
PK

[westwood]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

absolutely agree with clark.

[forensicd]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

I meant to add Clark to the list. He and lotus were amazing in the 60s. His stats were absolutely amazing. I wasnt born yet, but my mother and father were huge fans of his during his time, and being so i had plenty of knowledge about him, from formula 2 up. Him and Graham Hill battles were great, and when he was killed in a f2 car at hockenheim, the motorpsort world truly lost a legend in the making (only raced for about 8 years). From what i gathered of him, he was a very humble driver, which puts any driver high up in my marks. The great f1 drivers like fangio, nuvolari (whom could be the one of the greatest drivers as well) and senna all dominated their respected sport, and nuvolari also was an amazing motor bike champ. I look at other great drivers like Steve Kinser, who has won 20 WoO championships, but failed at other racing venues (mainly becuase he was thrown into a crappy situation by quaker state to pull him from valvoline), and i alwasys come back to aj and tony as guys that could literally drive anything with wheels. Tony has been entering local races here indiana under different names as not to draw attention to himself so he can just go out and race. I was not a big fan of his when he raced against us in sprinters, but man did he do everything he had to to win the race. Thats what i love about him; he is a fierce competitor that wont take losing. AJ held the same attitude, and sometimes it boils over, even as an owner (lets not forget his action in the pitts a few years ago!). But he won over 170 races, including the triple crown(indy, 24 hours of LeMans, and daytona 500), which is unbelievable. Tony is closing in on 100 victories, and he still has a long way to go.

[pk500]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

For any driver to be included in my all-time greats list, I need to see versatility. That's why it's so hard for any current drivers to make the list because there is no versatility in racing any more. No one crosses over to other series due to sponsor and contractual pressures and the long NASCAR schedule.

The age-old debate always has been Mario vs. A.J. when it comes to all-time greats. I much prefer Foyt, but an impassionate analysis has to go to Mario. The guy won on dirt ovals, on asphalt ovals and on road courses in an F1 car. I know Foyt won Le Mans, but it sure helped to have Gurney as his teammate in the top car, the Ford GT 40.

If Foyt raced and succeeded in F1, I would give him the nod over Mario. But Mario was successful in every kind of car he drove, and he won the F1 World Championship, Daytona and Indy. That's enough for me.

I'd still put Clark ahead of both Mario and A.J., though.

The versatility and excellence across many disciplines is what separates guys like Clark, Mario and A.J. from Stewart, Schumacher and Richard Petty, in my opinion. Petty drove stock cars and never ventured into much else.

Petty is a great stock car driver, but I don't rate him as an all-rounder, especially since he raced in the era of versatility. A ton of drivers crossed over, as Bobby and Donnie Allison and Cale Yarbrough made Indy 500 starts, for example, yet Petty never did.

Schumacher has crushed F1. But what has he done outside of it? Nothing, other than some success in sports cars in the late 80s. Schumacher is a great F1 driver, but like Petty, I don't rate him as an all-arounder, mainly because he has no willingness to test himself in anything but an F1 car. That attitude, bred by arrogance that F1 is the only true test for a driver, doesn't wash with me.

Stewart is the best race driver alive today in the world, in my opinion. He is blazing fast on dirt and asphalt, open-wheel or tin tops. But there's a common thread running through all of Stewart's success -- it's all been on ovals.

Yes, I know Tony has won Cup races on road courses. But I need to see him win a classic road race in a true road racing machine -- open-wheel or sports car -- before I'm ready to anoint him as one of the all-time greats.

If you're looking for great current all-arounders, I would have to lean toward Sebastien Loeb, Mattias Ekstrom, Sebastien Bourdais, Dan Wheldon and Valentino Rossi.

Loeb has dominated the World Rally Championship, the world's ultimate test of pure driving, the last two years, winning two titles. He also put in a very strong performance last year in the Le Mans 24 Hours sports car race.

Ekstrom won the DTM (German Touring Car) championship in 2004 and has been sniffing around the points in each of the last two Rally Sweden events in the WRC.

Bourdais is a two-time Champ Car champion, with strong showings on ovals, road and street courses. He also has won an IROC round against NASCAR's top guys in a stock car on an oval.

Wheldon won the Indy 500 and IndyCar Series title last year, with wins on ovals and road courses, and he was on the winning team last month at the Rolex 24 at Daytona sports-car race.

Rossi has ruled Moto GP, the F1 of motorcycles, the last few seasons, but he also is testing an F1 car for Ferrari and has competed in selected World Rally and national-level rallying events.

Take care,
PK

[Boltman]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

For any driver to be included in my all-time greats list, I need to see versatility. That's why it's so hard for any current drivers to make the list because there is no versatility in racing any more. No one crosses over to other series due to sponsor and contractual pressures and the long NASCAR schedule.

The age-old debate always has been Mario vs. A.J. when it comes to all-time greats. I much prefer Foyt, but an impassionate analysis has to go to Mario. The guy won on dirt ovals, on asphalt ovals and on road courses in an F1 car. I know Foyt won Le Mans, but it sure helped to have Gurney as his teammate in the top car, the Ford GT 40.

If Foyt raced and succeeded in F1, I would give him the nod over Mario. But Mario was successful in every kind of car he drove, and he won the F1 World Championship, Daytona and Indy. That's enough for me.

I'd still put Clark ahead of both Mario and A.J., though.

The versatility and excellence across many disciplines is what separates guys like Clark, Mario and A.J. from Stewart, Schumacher and Richard Petty, in my opinion. Petty drove stock cars and never ventured into much else.

Petty is a great stock car driver, but I don't rate him as an all-rounder, especially since he raced in the era of versatility. A ton of drivers crossed over, as Bobby and Donnie Allison and Cale Yarbrough made Indy 500 starts, for example, yet Petty never did.

Schumacher has crushed F1. But what has he done outside of it? Nothing, other than some success in sports cars in the late 80s. Schumacher is a great F1 driver, but like Petty, I don't rate him as an all-arounder, mainly because he has no willingness to test himself in anything but an F1 car. That attitude, bred by arrogance that F1 is the only true test for a driver, doesn't wash with me.

Stewart is the best race driver alive today in the world, in my opinion. He is blazing fast on dirt and asphalt, open-wheel or tin tops. But there's a common thread running through all of Stewart's success -- it's all been on ovals.

Yes, I know Tony has won Cup races on road courses. But I need to see him win a classic road race in a true road racing machine -- open-wheel or sports car -- before I'm ready to anoint him as one of the all-time greats.

If you're looking for great current all-arounders, I would have to lean toward Sebastien Loeb, Mattias Ekstrom, Sebastien Bourdais, Dan Wheldon and Valentino Rossi.

Loeb has dominated the World Rally Championship, the world's ultimate test of pure driving, the last two years, winning two titles. He also put in a very strong performance last year in the Le Mans 24 Hours sports car race.

Ekstrom won the DTM (German Touring Car) championship in 2004 and has been sniffing around the points in each of the last two Rally Sweden events in the WRC.

Bourdais is a two-time Champ Car champion, with strong showings on ovals, road and street courses. He also has won an IROC round against NASCAR's top guys in a stock car on an oval.

Wheldon won the Indy 500 and IndyCar Series title last year, with wins on ovals and road courses, and he was on the winning team last month at the Rolex 24 at Daytona sports-car race.

Rossi has ruled Moto GP, the F1 of motorcycles, the last few seasons, but he also is testing an F1 car for Ferrari and has competed in selected World Rally and national-level rallying events.

Take care,
PK

I agree with all you say, but (yes,...there always is a but) I will go with someone I actually saw a bit of....A.J. Foyt. Too bad he never succeeded in F1.

[bkrich83]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

Cole Trickle

[Boltman]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

Cole Trickle

LMFAO!!!


Imagine!?



God I loved all the Dick Trickle finish listings on ESPN hehheeehehehe!

[forensicd]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

Foyt, if i recall, ran a couple of f1 races, but if i remember, had terrible cars in doing so. What made him so impressive as well to me is he ran front engine cars, as well as rear engine, and won in both. He also started some 35 indy 500s, which is an ungodly number. Besides the 24 hour races, he also won the sebring 12 hour event. He was also pretty much responsible for eliminating USAC from sanctioning the IRL, which imo, was for the better. USAC is very unorganized, and even though they still sanction all of our races, they have become almost a running joke.

Its hard for me to to put any one form the WRC in the list, as that itself is whole different ball game. Loeb is an amazing driver, top of the rally drivers, but needs to prove more in another field. Not sure if he can or not. 24 hour races are tricky to judge one by, as so much depends on the cars and co-drivers, so if he can expand into something like DTM then i would start to take notice.

Wheldon is an up and comer, but is no where in the realms of great yet. I think he should get a shot in f1, and join the other great brits that have gone in the series. He is a better driver now than david coulthard, but not button, speaking of the same nationalities.

Would tony make a good f1 driver? Not sure, and he is getting too old now to even have a legitimate shot at it, nor does he fit the profile (a bit too chunky too). I really thought an american would be in before now, but tony is so aggressive, im not sure it would translate to well to f1 (alot of pissed of car owners would be after him im sure). I thought Jeff Gordon was going to have a chance for awhile, but that would have been horrible. With Speed finally getting his chance, i hope he will fare well (hard to believe its been since 93 since an maerican has been in f1). All i know is I cant wait until indy so I can finally take an American flag to the f1 race, but will still of course be supporting my Scuderia and Schumi.

[SPTO]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

Hmm

I'm sure Mario Andretti ranks up there, at least he does in my book. Same goes for Dale Earnhardt Sr.

So I guess i'll list them as my 1-2.

[pk500]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

Yep, Mario is in my top three, for sure.

Earnhardt was the greatest stock car driver ever, no question. Yeah, Petty won 200 races, but that was in the era with five or less really competitive teams and a schedule that reached 70 races in some seasons. Earnhardt won a ton of races and seven titles in much more competitive times than Petty.

But Earnhardt didn't do much out of stock cars, so I don't rate him as highly as an all-arounder like Foyt, Mario or Clark.

The shame is that Earnhardt REALLY liked other forms of racing and was starting to branch out, such as running the Rolex 24 with Junior, shortly before his death. I think he would have done more sports car stuff this decade if not for that fateful crash at Daytona, and I think he would have been superb, confirming his overall, absolute genius behind the wheel of a race car.

Take care,
PK

[forensicd]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

when Earnhardt passed away, so did my love for NASCAR. I still support the sprint car drivers in the series, but thats about it. He was the ultimate nascar driver, and things have really gone down hill, imo, for nascar since the daytona crash. Sure the rating are always going up, but the new breed of drivers just arent cutting it for me. He was a master behind the wheel, and like all the greats before him, he had the will to do whatever it took to win. Sure it would piss some people off, but thats what racing is, and you cant take that out of a driver, no matter what nascar tries to do. I would have loved to see him and jr doing some of the endurance races together, and his father, ralph, was a heck of a driver too. Dale was like the last link to the golden age of nascar, before all the glitz and glamour came along. Sure martin is left, but this is it for him, and all we will be left with are memories of days gone by. I dont think i would put dale in my top 5 as all time great drivers, but he sure is in my top 3 as favorite all time drivers. So, my list goes:

Greates all time drivers:
1. AJ Foyt
2. Tony Stewart
3. Ayrton Senna
4. Mario Andretti
5. Jimmy Clark

Favorite Drivers of all time:
1. Steve Kinser
2. Dale Earnahrdt
3. Michael Schumacher
4. Ayrton Senna
5. Jackie Stewart

[jcollins28]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

My love of NASCAR took a big hit with the passing of Kenny Irwin Jr. Some of you NASCAR fans may not remember him as he did not get the chance to make that big of a splash in Cup. Kenny was a great guy though and one hell of a wheel man. Success in the Cup series is nothing compared to having success in a midget car. IMHO a midget car is easily one of if not the most difficult car to drive. Where a Cup car ranks pretty low. Kenny had all the talent he needed to succeed in Cup. Just wish he had more time to prove himself there.


As for best driver ever though..Got to be Mario Andretti. Yeah you can make a case for Clark and Foyt but Mario's record speaks for itself. Mario rose thru the ranks pretty fast. He started racing on small dirt ovals in 59 and was in F1 in 64! Mario Andretti won the National Championship 4 times, the World Driving Championship once, a USAC Silver Crown title, the Indy 500, the Daytona 500, the 12 Hours of Sebring, and Pikes Peak. He won 12 Grands Prix and took a Formula One pole position 18 times. He grabbed the checkered flag 52 times in national championship races, won a record 67 pole positions, and led a record 7,587 laps. He felt just as much at home on a 1/4-mile dirt oval as he did on the streets of Monte Carlo. He is the only driver to be named Driver of the Year in three different decades (1967, 1978, and 1984) and is enshrined in four Halls of Fame (International Motorsports Hall of Fame, Motorsports Hall of Fame of America, Indianapolis Motor Speedway Hall of Fame, and National Sprint Car Hall of Fame). IMHO Mario is hands down the best ever! Then again that is what is so much fun about these debates. Hearing everyones opinions on there guys.

[forensicd]

Re: Greatest Race driver of all time?

Kenny Irwin was a great, great, great driver. He used to run with us before he got to the big leagues, and he was as talented a driver as i have seen in the few years of his career. Loudon had 2 deaths so close together, with him and adam petty both losing their lives pretty much in the same type of crash there. He was great in sprints, and even more impressive in midgets. I remember watching him at Winchester speedway, which is the hardest and fastest 1/2 mile track in america to race on due to the outragous banking, and he took that track by storm. He was feerless there, when many others stood in awe of the great track, and today the hold the kenny irwin memorial race there for that reason. He was just as good on dirt as well. I remember one time he was sitting on the pole at Terre Haute, got into the 1st turn, someone pulled a slide job on him and pushed him into the wall and sent him flipping. The red came out, he had to change his right rear and start at the back (29 cars back). He came from the rear in 30 laps to win the race. He told me afterwards he had no intention of winning, but he sure as hell wasnt going to let the guy who put im in the wall win. He is a great reminder of how these great drivers risk their lives everytime they strap in.

Also, while midgets are hard to drive compared to nascars, they are nothing like driving a sprinter. Sprinters have 850 hp v8s, strapped to a bare frame in essence. Once you take the wing off, driving a sprint car in about as tough as it come in any form of racing. You have to be a little crazy to drive one, thats why i just own them! Micheal Schumacher, when he was in the US, was asked if he would like to take one out for a drive. His response was "you have to be nuts to get into one of those!".