Nascar 09 - Running with drones

[dubeau]

Well, I rented Nascar 09 and start an offline carreer...and this is a huge deception.

First of all, to my knowledge, Nascar is about action. There is NONE in the game. There is no collisions or mechanical failure unless it's initiated by the player. The damage are there, but since there is no crash...it is a useless option. All of this means that you race drones that keep their lines and have virtually no human behavior, doesn't make human mistake...in other word: THERE IS NO AI !!! This is what it means to have AI, you know. To emulate intelligence, with good moves and mistakes. AI also means simulating mechanical behavior with a certain level of randomness.

Second, there is a huge bug with the first pit. I have done 3 races, and each time during a race, after the first pit, the handling changed to very tight. On the pits after, the handling come back to normal. Always on the first one...I make my car with loose setting for a race. That how I am sure of it.

The offline game is horrible...and I am glad I rent it, because it's not worth buying, and it's not even close to a simulation of any kind. The carreer mode is there, it's nice...but the racing part is under acheived.

I miss the days of Papyrus...

[RynoAid]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

what level are you racing on? Im on Pro, Legend with AI set to hard... In my first career race (60 laps at Daytona) there where 4 cautions... 3 caused by CPU accidents not envolving my car.

IMO these cars are not drones at all, they pass with care, draft, wreck... they are totally aware of where your car is too.

Now i will agree that i havn't seen any "mechanical failures" yet in the game, but that's about the only point of your review that i agree with.... seems like more of a bias by you towards Papyrus than EA making a bad game.

Papyrus is gone.. that game is gone... (unless you want to pay $150 on EBAY for a used copy). It's time to move on for most of us.

[coffeeholic]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

what level are you racing on? Im on Pro, Legend with AI set to hard... In my first career race (60 laps at Daytona) there where 4 cautions... 3 caused by CPU accidents not envolving my car.

IMO these cars are not drones at all, they pass with care, draft, wreck... they are totally aware of where your car is too.

Now i will agree that i havn't seen any "mechanical failures" yet in the game, but that's about the only point of your review that i agree with.... seems like more of a bias by you towards Papyrus than EA making a bad game.

Papyrus is gone.. that game is gone... (unless you want to pay $150 on EBAY for a used copy). It's time to move on for most of us.

I don't remember much mechanical failures in the old Papy games-and I played them all. I'm not here to start a papy vs EA war. Both of them are what they are. EA has put out a quality game this time-not perfect mind you-but a major improvement over last year and a worthy investment. I myself have seen 2 AI wrecks in 2 career races

[dubeau]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

I was on normal, rookie, driver set to hard. Maybe the level is the problem...But why should it affect the gameplay that I am at rookie level or not ? I mean, there should be as much action that goes into a race. What a weird design choice...

Anyone saw the "adaptative AI" wait after you come out of pitting. Most of the time I was able to get out of the pit, put on the brakes because all the cars are slowing down, and get back to around 20P.

Well, anyway...I won't buy it.

N.B.: where is that in-race save feature that we ask 5 years ago to EA ? I mean they really do listen to gamers, right ?

[coffeeholic]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

I was on normal, rookie, driver set to hard. Maybe the level is the problem...But why should it affect the gameplay that I am at rookie level or not ? I mean, there should be as much action that goes into a race. What a weird design choice...

My guess would be-if you are going down the straight at Dega and 10 cars go into each other at once in front of you that it might be considered tough to get through that without piling into them? maybe...In other words-maybe EA thought at "casual" or rookie levels that things like wrecks wouldn't be wanted by someone who just wants a race and not much more? I think a wreck option for any level would have been a nice feature.

[pk500]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

Papyrus is gone.. that game is gone... (unless you want to pay $150 on EBAY for a used copy). It's time to move on for most of us.

It's far from gone. It's easy to get by "alternative" means, and I don't feel that guilty about it since it's an out-of-print game and the company that makes it also is defunct.

Plus there are still new tracks, liveries and mods for NR 2003 being released every week.

NR 2003 is arguably as vibrant as NASCAR 09. You can drive these series for free with NR 2003: 2008 Cup (COT), 2007 Cup (COT and old car), 2006 Cup (old car), 1990 Cup, 1988 Cup, 1970 Grand National, Saturday Night Short Track, Whelen Modified, Busch Grand National, Craftsman Truck and Trans-Am. Plus every current and former Cup track, and damn near every major short track used in NASCAR regional series are available, for free. I don't quite think NASCAR 09 offers that.

If you're an online racer, NASCAR 09 will give you a better experience because Sierra shut down its servers for NR 2003 about 18 months ago. But there still are plenty of active leagues running through a rented server or from a host's IP address, and it's easy as pie to hook up. But if you're an offline racer who doesn't need a ladder-tiered career mode and just wants to run whatever track or series you want whenever you want, NR 2003 is far from dead.

Coffee is right, though: NR 2003 didn't have mechanical failures. The NSS mod for rFactor does have some mechanical failures, although it doesn't drive quite as realistically or have as realistic AI as NR 2003.

Take care,
PK

[TCrouch]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

Ridiculous. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I've seen a bunch of human-like behavior. It's like you wanted to dislike it, fired it up, left it on easy handling model, and then complain about the handling. Bizarre.

[Chitown1211]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

You are right about the AI. They are all super conservative and do NOTHING out of the box or anything that could be considered even slightly aggressive. They dont even attempt to get out of line on restarts. And they run that nice neat two car line train for like 20 laps atleast to start each race. In real NASSCAR the lines immeadiately start shuffling as soon as the green flag flies. Your lucky if that nice two car line lasts for 2 laps.


Racing superspeedways in this game is as boring as watching paint dry.

[Chitown1211]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

Ridiculous. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I've seen a bunch of human-like behavior. It's like you wanted to dislike it, fired it up, left it on easy handling model, and then complain about the handling. Bizarre.

What bunch of human-like behavior have you seen?

[RynoAid]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

It's far from gone. It's easy to get by "alternative" means, and I don't feel that guilty about it since it's an out-of-print game and the company that makes it also is defunct.

Plus there are still new tracks, liveries and mods for NR 2003 being released every week.

NR 2003 is arguably as vibrant as NASCAR 09. You can drive these series for free with NR 2003: 2008 Cup (COT), 2007 Cup (COT and old car), 2006 Cup (old car), 1990 Cup, 1988 Cup, 1970 Grand National, Saturday Night Short Track, Whelen Modified, Busch Grand National, Craftsman Truck and Trans-Am. Plus every current and former Cup track, and damn near every major short track used in NASCAR regional series are available, for free. I don't quite think NASCAR 09 offers that.

If you're an online racer, NASCAR 09 will give you a better experience because Sierra shut down its servers for NR 2003 about 18 months ago. But there still are plenty of active leagues running through a rented server or from a host's IP address, and it's easy as pie to hook up. But if you're an offline racer who doesn't need a ladder-tiered career mode and just wants to run whatever track or series you want whenever you want, NR 2003 is far from dead.

Coffee is right, though: NR 2003 didn't have mechanical failures. The NSS mod for rFactor does have some mechanical failures, although it doesn't drive quite as realistically or have as realistic AI as NR 2003.

Take care,
PK

sure for your hard core PC sim racer, it's still a viable option... but i've moved on and are looking for viable alternatives that aren't based of a 5 year old game. Papy is great for what it is... but im looking for something new and graphically more advanced... and you can't tell me that game is graphically as good as EA 2009 on my HD TV... im sorry, i don't see it.

Pluse im getting older and don't want to track down tracks packs, car packs, and all the additional software and patches you have to get etc... to run in any of those leagues. I want to load up a game on my xbox with my buddies on XBLive (no teamspeak or ventrillo required) and play a good race sim.

[bkrich83]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

what level are you racing on? Im on Pro, Legend with AI set to hard... In my first career race (60 laps at Daytona) there where 4 cautions... 3 caused by CPU accidents not envolving my car.

IMO these cars are not drones at all, they pass with care, draft, wreck... they are totally aware of where your car is too.

I am running with the same settings and my experence has been the same as yours.

It's like you wanted to dislike it, fired it up, left it on easy handling model, and then complain about the handling. Bizarre.

Yup, it certainly appears like that

[TCrouch]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

What bunch of human-like behavior have you seen?

AI Cars shoot 3 wide with each other, bunching up, and causing a caution.

An AI car being pinched down low, backing off, getting a run and trying to pass outside the next corner.

AI cars spinning out when you keep pressuring them.

Cars running multiple grooves over the course of a race at tracks that allow it...California, Michigan, etc.

I've had some cars actually stick to a position more than others, and some particular drivers will concede quicker than others over the course of a race.

Bottom line, it's NOT reality. No game is. Even NR2003 had cars that ran a single groove everywhere, as all tracks were a 1-groove track for the fast line. Sure, they'd dice it up to make a pass, but so does N09. The cars are a little too passive; that's got merit. But I'll take that over cars that act like you're not there and plow your quarterpanel every corner, a la '08.

I think people mistake AI cars actually acting like humans and not wanting to wreck for "drones". On a track, guys don't intentionally try to plow into you if they know that it will cause an incident (unless they're Kyle Busch). If I give a lane and don't weave like a madman, cars will make a pass cleanly. Another post (I think it was yours) mentioned being unable to race with black flags, and that's entirely untrue as well. I race every race with full flags and manage to stay out of trouble, so everyone's mileage varies...it's based on your own aggression, not the AI problem. They probably recognize that you're a powder keg and give you a bit of room.

[pk500]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

sure for your hard core PC sim racer, it's still a viable option... but i've moved on and are looking for viable alternatives that aren't based of a 5 year old game. Papy is great for what it is... but im looking for something new and graphically more advanced... and you can't tell me that game is graphically as good as EA 2009 on my HD TV... im sorry, i don't see it.

Pluse im getting older and don't want to track down tracks packs, car packs, and all the additional software and patches you have to get etc... to run in any of those leagues. I want to load up a game on my xbox with my buddies on XBLive (no teamspeak or ventrillo required) and play a good race sim.

Fair enough. NASCAR 09 is ideal for you.

Take care,
PK

[dubeau]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

I personnally think, that the EA Nascar game is a good reflection of the lack of competition between at least two devellopers. That series didn't move much since Nascar Sim Racing. Even so, some features were removed then put back...The graphical aspect got better, they added air drafting and some team work (when it's there). The spotter is more accurate.

The Hud is rather generic then helping, the in-race save system was throw out a long time ago, I don't think the AI got better (In fact the adaptative AI seems exactely the same, and in general it's more conservative). The console still have jaggy edges (surprising for the PS3).

Some might say the Madden games are the proof of that, but in my view the Nascar game is more stagnant from year to year. I really dislike that only one game makers has all the license in one sport.

If you want a good AI in a recent racing game, try F1 on the PS3 on medium. It's quite amazing, although that game has it's problems...

[Chitown1211]

Re: Nascar 09 - Running with drones

AI Cars shoot 3 wide with each other, bunching up, and causing a caution.

An AI car being pinched down low, backing off, getting a run and trying to pass outside the next corner.

AI cars spinning out when you keep pressuring them.

Cars running multiple grooves over the course of a race at tracks that allow it...California, Michigan, etc.

I've had some cars actually stick to a position more than others, and some particular drivers will concede quicker than others over the course of a race.

Bottom line, it's NOT reality. No game is. Even NR2003 had cars that ran a single groove everywhere, as all tracks were a 1-groove track for the fast line. Sure, they'd dice it up to make a pass, but so does N09. The cars are a little too passive; that's got merit. But I'll take that over cars that act like you're not there and plow your quarterpanel every corner, a la '08.

I think people mistake AI cars actually acting like humans and not wanting to wreck for "drones". On a track, guys don't intentionally try to plow into you if they know that it will cause an incident (unless they're Kyle Busch). If I give a lane and don't weave like a madman, cars will make a pass cleanly. Another post (I think it was yours) mentioned being unable to race with black flags, and that's entirely untrue as well. I race every race with full flags and manage to stay out of trouble, so everyone's mileage varies...it's based on your own aggression, not the AI problem. They probably recognize that you're a powder keg and give you a bit of room.

I should have rephrased my question. I agree there is human like behavior, but it always seems tilted towards the side of caution.

I just dont see any aggressivness or stupidity so to say. You can keep checking up in front of an AI car and they wont ever rough you up for doing it. They just wait till they can politely make a pass. Its too easy to take advantage of their passivness sometimes.

And Im not lying guys I do not see AI cautions. Three races into a new career, I run about 20% of the races, and I havent seen a caution yet not created by myself.


I stand by my black flag opinion. It is way too sensitive. You have to handicap your own agressiveness too much. Only way to avoid them is to drive cautious. At some point people obviously holding you up need to get the heck out of the way. Sometimes they need a rear bumper suggestion. Thats NASCAR imo.


I will say though I am enjoying the game more. Feels like some tracks just make for a much better expieriece.