Re: Official PS3 Discussion

[Skyboxer]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

"Among all the talk about the price of Sony's console, I almost never see anyone mention the significance of Sony's free online service. Xbox Live Gold costs $70 to sign up for 1 year, or $20 for three months. You can renew your membership for $50 a year. So if the Xbox 360 stays around for five years, you'll be paying 70 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 = $270 to access features that Sony gives you for free."

Bottom line is Sony isn't offering "these features" for free. They have no features.
Sony online isn't even in the same area code as LIVE. So yes I'll pay for it.

Other than that it's all speculation and one thing is certain. I don't want there to be a winner. No competition= No innovation and lack of a quality product....(EA)

[Altimus]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

The GPUs on the Xbox 360 and PS3 are roughly equivalent, with the Xbox 360 arguably having a slight edge.

Wrong! Doesn't touch too much on this subject, this is why.

The RSX is pretty much a 7800GTX class GPU. In certain cases a little better but in some worse, but nothing new. The RSX shader operations are 68 billion per second. It also has 20.8GB/s of video memory bandwith from the GDDR3 ram.

Now the 360 GPU is very much advanced. The GPU inside the 360 is pretty much an early ATI R600. Which by ATI is a Directx 10 GPU. While the 360 GPU meets the requirements of Directx 10, it fails in some as well. GPU Xenos is clocked at 500MHZ *192 shader ops per clock = 96 billion shader ops per second.

Now the 360’s GPU doesn’t perform as many ops per pipe as the RSX. However it makes up for it by having a superior architecture, and have more pipes operate more efficiently and with more bandwidth.

Now the 360’s GPU is the first to use a Unified Shader architecture. The GPU has 10MB of EDRAM built in on the chip. This EDRAM has a framebuffer of 256GB/s which is 5 times more then the RSX for it’s frame buffer. Thanks to this unified shader architecture and this 10MB of EDRAM the GPU can achieve 4XFSAA at no performace cost. Those that play on the PC. When you turn HDR lighting on the performance goes down because those features eat bandwith and the GPU’s performace decreases as well. While on the 360 HDR+4XAA are no task at all to the GPU with proper use of EDRAM.

The difference in CPU power, however, is far greater with the PS3 enjoying the advantage. The PS3's eight parallel CPUs (one primary "PPU" and seven Cell processors) give it potentially far more computing power than the three parallel CPUs in the Xbox 360. Just about any tech programmer will tell you that the PS3's CPUs are significantly more powerful. The problem is that it has been challenging thus far to take advantage of the Cell's parallel architecture.

This is true.

However...

Operating Systems Use:

Xbox

32MB of the 512mb of available GDDR3 RAM
3% CPU time on Core1 and Core2 (nothing is reserved on Core0)


PS3

32mb of the 256mb of available GDDR3 memory off the RSX chip
64mb of the 256mb of available XDR memory off the Cell CPU
1 SPE of 7 constantly reserved
1 SPE of 7 able to be "taken" by the OS at a moments notice (games have to give it up if requested)


As you see it is no more 8 SPE. It was never 8 to begin with since the 8th is inactive due to cost saving features.

Peak level:

115GFLOPS Theoretical Peak Performance for 360 CPU
218GFLOPS Theoretical Peak Performance for PS3 CPU.


When IBM did this test it it was using all 8 SPEs. While on the PS3 6 are only applicable.

So it is more like 153.3 GFLOPs. Remember these numbers will never be achieved in game for either system.

To break down in terms how each CPU works.

Lets say I'm working on a car with a couple friends. The 360 way of doing things is me and all my friends in the garage working on the engine together. Communicating and helping each other out. The PS3 way of doing this is more of us but in that garage I am alone while my friends would be in closed closets working of different parts of the engine and I would have to gather information from each one of them. And it gets worse. Each SPE (Friend) has size restrictions.

Now the Cell has advantages of the Xenos.

If the Cell is done right it could allow for the PS3 to have more things going on at once than the 360. The PS3 CPU is all very good at vertex operations because the Cell can handle graphics code better than the 360. Physics code could also run better on the PS3.



The 360 CPU due to 3 identical cores is not only easier to program but it also means things such as AI could be better of the two CPUs.

Now this is only a little of a lot of information about the processors. Overall the Cell is a lot stronger. But programing wise developers would prefer to stay away.

With the PS2, Sony got away with making a fairly developer-unfriendly system, and its success allowed their hardware designers to ignore developer's complaints as they made the PS3. People high up at Sony have realized that approach simply won't work anymore and are trying to fix the problem. Sony is actively improving their libraries, tools and developer support in order to make PS3 development easier. They are giving first party developed techniques and code to third-party developers so that multi-platform games should start looking better on PS3.

Playstation Edge. Hopefully this will help multi platform games perform a lot better on the PS3.

Games developed from the ground up on PS3 are the ones that will really show off the PS3's CPU advantage. The complexity of the distributed processing architecture means that PS3 engines won't fully blossom until a little later in the lifecycle than the PS2. This has put the PS3 at a disadvantage early in its lifecycle, but within two years you will see games that surpass what is possible on the Xbox 360.

This is all based on speculation. And right now buying a $600 based on speculation is hard to swallow.

[jmood88]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

Wrong! Doesn't touch too much on this subject, this is why.

The RSX is pretty much a 7800GTX class GPU. In certain cases a little better but in some worse, but nothing new. The RSX shader operations are 68 billion per second. It also has 20.8GB/s of video memory bandwith from the GDDR3 ram.

Now the 360 GPU is very much advanced. The GPU inside the 360 is pretty much an early ATI R600. Which by ATI is a Directx 10 GPU. While the 360 GPU meets the requirements of Directx 10, it fails in some as well. GPU Xenos is clocked at 500MHZ *192 shader ops per clock = 96 billion shader ops per second.

Now the 360’s GPU doesn’t perform as many ops per pipe as the RSX. However it makes up for it by having a superior architecture, and have more pipes operate more efficiently and with more bandwidth.

Now the 360’s GPU is the first to use a Unified Shader architecture. The GPU has 10MB of EDRAM built in on the chip. This EDRAM has a framebuffer of 256GB/s which is 5 times more then the RSX for it’s frame buffer. Thanks to this unified shader architecture and this 10MB of EDRAM the GPU can achieve 4XFSAA at no performace cost. Those that play on the PC. When you turn HDR lighting on the performance goes down because those features eat bandwith and the GPU’s performace decreases as well. While on the 360 HDR+4XAA are no task at all to the GPU with proper use of EDRAM.




This is true.

However...

Operating Systems Use:

Xbox

32MB of the 512mb of available GDDR3 RAM
3% CPU time on Core1 and Core2 (nothing is reserved on Core0)


PS3

32mb of the 256mb of available GDDR3 memory off the RSX chip
64mb of the 256mb of available XDR memory off the Cell CPU
1 SPE of 7 constantly reserved
1 SPE of 7 able to be "taken" by the OS at a moments notice (games have to give it up if requested)


As you see it is no more 8 SPE. It was never 8 to begin with since the 8th is inactive due to cost saving features.

Peak level:

115GFLOPS Theoretical Peak Performance for 360 CPU
218GFLOPS Theoretical Peak Performance for PS3 CPU.


When IBM did this test it it was using all 8 SPEs. While on the PS3 6 are only applicable.

So it is more like 153.3 GFLOPs. Remember these numbers will never be achieved in game for either system.

To break down in terms how each CPU works.

Lets say I'm working on a car with a couple friends. The 360 way of doing things is me and all my friends in the garage working on the engine together. Communicating and helping each other out. The PS3 way of doing this is more of us but in that garage I am alone while my friends would be in closed closets working of different parts of the engine and I would have to gather information from each one of them. And it gets worse. Each SPE (Friend) has size restrictions.

Now the Cell has advantages of the Xenos.

If the Cell is done right it could allow for the PS3 to have more things going on at once than the 360. The PS3 CPU is all very good at vertex operations because the Cell can handle graphics code better than the 360. Physics code could also run better on the PS3.



The 360 CPU due to 3 identical cores is not only easier to program but it also means things such as AI could be better of the two CPUs.

Now this is only a little of a lot of information about the processors. Overall the Cell is a lot stronger. But programing wise developers would prefer to stay away.



Playstation Edge. Hopefully this will help multi platform games perform a lot better on the PS3.



This is all based on speculation. And right now buying a $600 based on speculation is hard to swallow.

Thanks for the explanation. I have no idea what all the numbers mean but your garage example makes sense.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

Just picked up a 60GB PS3 for $299 Canadian at EB. They have some pretty good trade in deals going on right now.

If you trade 10 games worth $8 or more, they give you $260 towards a PS3. Then if you ask about combining deals, you can trade a Slimline PS2 with 3 games for another $100 off.

Really enjoying the system so far. Even though I had a 360 already, I couldn't pass this deal up. From what I've heard, the offer is only good for EB's in Canada.

[Pratt75]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

Dam that is an awesome deal, congrats on the pickup.

[Rodster]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

"Among all the talk about the price of Sony's console, I almost never see anyone mention the significance of Sony's free online service. Xbox Live Gold costs $70 to sign up for 1 year, or $20 for three months. You can renew your membership for $50 a year. So if the Xbox 360 stays around for five years, you'll be paying 70 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 = $270 to access features that Sony gives you for free."

Bottom line is Sony isn't offering "these features" for free. They have no features.
Sony online isn't even in the same area code as LIVE. So yes I'll pay for it.

Other than that it's all speculation and one thing is certain. I don't want there to be a winner. No competition= No innovation and lack of a quality product....(EA)

Sky it costs $50 for 13 months of Live Service, that comes to $3.85 per month. I've never seen Live go for $70 unless you are referring Live with a headset but that was more for the original Xbox. The 360 premium comes with a headset, not sure about the core.

While I enjoy playing games on PSN, honestly at the moment it's no where close to Live in what it offers for $3.85 per month. I have no problems spending $50 of Live service for 13 months. I was playing Motorstorm last night with CB and it's one of the few that allow for a buddies match. I still had to wait for him to find the game I created because I couldn't send him a friends request within the game. We could only communicate outside of the game.

IMO Sony has a looooong way to go to match XBL.

[ThaGenecyst]

80 GB PS3 on the way?

In the past, Ken Kutaragi was pushing for the introduction of a 250GB model PS3, so future models of the console may feature increased storage. Reviving that news, Kotaku, the website that confirmed Sony's "Home" before its official announcement may have once again uncovered something very interesting--Sony's answer to Microsoft's XBox 360 Elite.

In a filing dated earlier this month, Sony contacted the US Federal Communications Commission to request a "Class II permissive change" to the PLAYSTATION 3. While FCC filings are generally dry as dust, this one has an interesting addition. A new PLAYSTATION 3 model (CECHE01) with an 80GB hard disk was listed as an additional inclusion to the original FCC grant. The two current model numbers CECHA01 and CECHB01 specify the 60GB and 20GB versions, respectively.

Could this new hard disk represent a totally new model or simply a storage upgrade? Will the 80GB PS3 at some point become the lower-end model? Kotaku will be contacting Sony in the morning to gather additional details.

A document publicly available via the internet - gawd bless it - has ignited speculation that a revised-hardware PS3 is in the pipeline.

It's revealed in the document that Sony has made an application requesting 'a class II permissive change' to the console to the US Federal Communications Commission. It's suggested by the changes detailed that a version of PS3 with an 80Gb hard drive will be released to live alongside existing models.

Alterations - i.e. update - to PS3's Bluetooth antennae are additionally related to in the document.

It's likely that any revisions to PS3 hardware would be minor and applied across the board, with a new 80Gb model simply being that - a PS3 with a bigger HDD. We'll just have to wait and see.

Sony declined to comment on the matter when contacted earlier.

http://computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=160997

[Perceptor]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

Just picked up a 60GB PS3 for $299 Canadian at EB. They have some pretty good trade in deals going on right now.

If you trade 10 games worth $8 or more, they give you $260 towards a PS3. Then if you ask about combining deals, you can trade a Slimline PS2 with 3 games for another $100 off.

Really enjoying the system so far. Even though I had a 360 already, I couldn't pass this deal up. From what I've heard, the offer is only good for EB's in Canada.

Damn - I need to get in on this deal - thanks for the heads up - I have a 360 and love it, but I did want a PS3 for the BluRay and also to play some of the Sony franchises like FF, GT, and Kingdom Hearts - since the PS3 has backwards compatibility, it makes getting rid of my slimline PS2 a little easier to take

[Rodster]

Re: 80 GB PS3 on the way?

http://computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=160997

Why not just buy a 250 or 500gb HDD off the shelf?

[bkfount]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

Sky it costs $50 for 13 months of Live Service, that comes to $3.85 per month. I've never seen Live go for $70 unless you are referring Live with a headset but that was more for the original Xbox. The 360 premium comes with a headset, not sure about the core.

While I enjoy playing games on PSN, honestly at the moment it's no where close to Live in what it offers for $3.85 per month. I have no problems spending $50 of Live service for 13 months. I was playing Motorstorm last night with CB and it's one of the few that allow for a buddies match. I still had to wait for him to find the game I created because I couldn't send him a friends request within the game. We could only communicate outside of the game.

IMO Sony has a looooong way to go to match XBL.

it's all about the perceived value. People pay $12 or more a month to play a MMORPG and don't mind. Xbox live is a deal at $50 for 13 months. I wonder where they got the $70 crap though.

[Skyboxer]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

Sky it costs $50 for 13 months of Live Service, that comes to $3.85 per month. I've never seen Live go for $70 unless you are referring Live with a headset but that was more for the original Xbox. The 360 premium comes with a headset, not sure about the core.

While I enjoy playing games on PSN, honestly at the moment it's no where close to Live in what it offers for $3.85 per month. I have no problems spending $50 of Live service for 13 months. I was playing Motorstorm last night with CB and it's one of the few that allow for a buddies match. I still had to wait for him to find the game I created because I couldn't send him a friends request within the game. We could only communicate outside of the game.

IMO Sony has a looooong way to go to match XBL.

The 70$ was what the site said not me.....
I don't think I've ever paid more than 50. I've had LIVE since there was LIVE as I was a beta tester. (Still have my free memory card ke chain and t-shirt )

I really hope Sonys online gets better as I REALLY want a league in The Show!

[Rodster]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

The 70$ was what the site said not me.....
I don't think I've ever paid more than 50. I've had LIVE since there was LIVE as I was a beta tester. (Still have my free memory card ke chain and t-shirt )

I really hope Sonys online gets better as I REALLY want a league in The Show!

If you start a league let me know cause i'd be interested.

[countryboy]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

Just picked up a 60GB PS3 for $299 Canadian at EB. They have some pretty good trade in deals going on right now.

If you trade 10 games worth $8 or more, they give you $260 towards a PS3. Then if you ask about combining deals, you can trade a Slimline PS2 with 3 games for another $100 off.

Really enjoying the system so far. Even though I had a 360 already, I couldn't pass this deal up. From what I've heard, the offer is only good for EB's in Canada.

welcome to the club

[countryboy]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

If you start a league let me know cause i'd be interested.

me too!!!

Just a warning though... i have been taking HGH to get ready for The Show!

[Rodster]

Re: Official PS3 Discussion

me too!!!

Just a warning though... i have been taking HGH to get ready for The Show!

LOL