Were the cops really in the wrong here?

[MassNole]

Re: Were the cops really in the wrong here?

I think you are misusing unlawful arest here though...

Arresting someone that turns out to be innocent is not an unlawful arrest. Unlawful arrest, I believe, is making an arrest without following the law on things like probable cause, miranda, etc..

Such as arresting someone for violation of an ordinance. That at least appears to be the standard in Florida.

As for arresting her disorderly conduct, the case law and statutory law of Florida suggest that they also crossed the line here as well.

The disorderly conduct<!--<kmhint id="cre4"><lncorrelation citation="FLCODE 877.03" type="statute"/></kmhint>--> statute, Fla. Stat. Ann. § 877.03 (1997), has been limited in its application to words that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace, or to words, known to be false, reporting some physical hazard in circumstances where such a report creates a clear and present danger of bodily harm to others. No words except fighting words or words like shouts of fire in a crowded theater fall within its proscription.

Miller v. State, 780 So. 2d 197 (Fla. Dist. Ct. App. 2001)

So given this application of this standard, she would have needed to threaten the cops or raise to the level of fighting words to justify being arrested. And at that, under the Common Law (which may or may not be applicable in Florida but appears to be here) the standard for fighting words to a police officer is substantially higher than to you or me (unless you're a police officer).

[ODogg]

Re: Were the cops really in the wrong here?

I think you are misusing unlawful arest here though...

Arresting someone that turns out to be innocent is not an unlawful arrest. Unlawful arrest, I believe, is making an arrest without following the law on things like probable cause, miranda, etc..

Exactly and even if the unrest did turn out to be unlawful, if she commits crimes while in custody such as disorderly conduct or attacking a police officer or etc, those crimes are most certainly not excused because her original arrest was unlawful.

[DickDalewood]

Re: Were the cops really in the wrong here?

Well when others say dumb things and their posts are used as sigs..they get their sigs erased magically...hmmm.

Dumb is sayin all cops are dirty, I said most. Which is true. Some of the cops became cops cuz they prob couldnt make it doing anything else, they prob was the HS goof, maybe they was the guy who flunked out of basic USMC training.



Plus being arrested for being a john, the police tend to take it easy on you. Knowing that youre sexually frustrated and all.

First of all, if you're going to knock people for becoming police officers "because they couldn't make it doing anything else", at least make your grammar look halfway respectable so you yourself can come across as someone who COULD make it doing something else.

Second, at one point or another you clearly missed the memo explaining that most cops today need a four-year criminal justice major to even be considered, and even then a lot of them don't get hired.

Do your research dude, right now you just sound ridiculous...

[N51_rob]

Re: Were the cops really in the wrong here?

Okay from what I saw at the 54 second mark of the tape, however drunk this girl was she was doing exactly what the officer was ordering her to do. "Get on your knees, put your hands on the wall." Now this tape may have been edited for a particular slant or spin, but as I saw it. at the 1:06 mark the first time they put her in the chair she was calm, lucid and allowed them to restrain her. Again after this the tape seems to be edited to show how they were forcefully straping her to the chair. Now I have a few questions based off that tape and my own experiences in the "drunk tank"

1. While she ws in that holding cell (assuming that she was drunk) who was she harming or posing a threat to? In my experience the cops usually put you in the holding cell give you a PB&J and leave you alone to sleep it off. (Has happened twicw both times in Hawaii)

2. With her following directions what was the cause or the need to strap her in a chair? I don't know about you guys but that thing looked umcomfortable and I would've squirmed to get comfortable and maybe she was doing that and she was able to get free.

3. If the inmate is already in custody in a holding cell at what point is the force used to restrain them to much? (And there has to be such a point.) WHen the inmates passes out in the chair? (The next two exaples didn't happen in this case they are hypothetical) When the inmates stops breathing? WHen the inmate dies?

I think that it is best to err on the side of caution. Because could you imagine if this girl had died or sufferd a serious injury. Police are our protectors in this society, but for us to assume that they are always in the right is nieve.

As a man of color I have been detained, questioned on numerous occasions because I "fit the description." I'm not bitter or angry I don't hate the police. I just question their actions sometimes. I perfer that they get the job done right, if that means that I suffer some personal unpleasantries I can accept that. But The police have to be held to a higher standard than you and I. So to an extint I think these officers over reacted. Should they be fired no. Suspended? yes, but with pay.

[Gilateen]

Re: Were the cops really in the wrong here?

First of all, if you're going to knock people for becoming police officers "because they couldn't make it doing anything else", at least make your grammar look halfway respectable so you yourself can come across as someone who COULD make it doing something else.

Second, at one point or another you clearly missed the memo explaining the most cops today need a four-year criminal justice major to even be considered, and even then a lot of them don't get hired.

Do your research dude, right now you just sound ridiculous...

OMG...who freakin cares about what you think about me and my grammar?

The topic at hand is the girl and cops. Not about what I think, get off my nutz, Dickwood!!

[ODogg]

Re: Were the cops really in the wrong here?

Okay from what I saw at the 54 second mark of the tape, however drunk this girl was she was doing exactly what the officer was ordering her to do. "Get on your knees, put your hands on the wall." Now this tape may have been edited for a particular slant or spin, but as I saw it. at the 1:06 mark the first time they put her in the chair she was calm, lucid and allowed them to restrain her. Again after this the tape seems to be edited to show how they were forcefully straping her to the chair. Now I have a few questions based off that tape and my own experiences in the "drunk tank"

1. While she ws in that holding cell (assuming that she was drunk) who was she harming or posing a threat to?

As you said, the tape starts at a point where the officers are already ordering her to her knees but they do indicate they thought she posed a threat to herself in whatever she was doing prior to the camera starting, perhaps banging her head into the wall or pounding her fists or something, it's unknown.

2. With her following directions what was the cause or the need to strap her in a chair? I don't know about you guys but that thing looked umcomfortable and I would've squirmed to get comfortable and maybe she was doing that and she was able to get free.

See answer to #1.

3. If the inmate is already in custody in a holding cell at what point is the force used to restrain them too much? (And there has to be such a point.) WHen the inmates passes out in the chair? (The next two exaples didn't happen in this case they are hypothetical) When the inmates stops breathing? WHen the inmate dies?

Strapping someone into a chair is not excessive. Now there was some restraining around her head that perhaps caused her to pass out but she more likely hyperventilated. Police are trained to use submission holds which include areas around the neck and sometimes this can result in loss of conscious and even death which are the extreme. From what i've read they are not supposed to use chokeholds but in this video it doesn't appear to be a chokehold, more like a restraint of the head.

I think that it is best to err on the side of caution. Because could you imagine if this girl had died or sufferd a serious injury. Police are our protectors in this society, but for us to assume that they are always in the right is nieve.

But the girl did not die or suffer serious injury. The police simply used methods to restrain her and she escalated the situation, forcing them to also escalate the method of restraint.

As a man of color I have been detained, questioned on numerous occasions because I "fit the description." I'm not bitter or angry I don't hate the police. I just question their actions sometimes. I perfer that they get the job done right, if that means that I suffer some personal unpleasantries I can accept that. But The police have to be held to a higher standard than you and I. So to an extint I think these officers over reacted. Should they be fired no. Suspended? yes, but with pay.

I agree they are not above questioning but in this case it's pretty clear cut that there was nothing done wrong, other than the girl in question had a lawyer for a father. I don't think a lot of you realize how difficult a police officers job is. They have to deal with the worst of society including the drunk and disorderlies of the world, like this girl was, and they are under constant scrutiny for it. Yes you are right we have to question but we should also give them the benefit of the doubt until proof is in that they violated the law or civil liberties. Judging from this video it is definitely and open and shut case of being guilty, on the girls part that is, of having too much to drink and not listening to repeated requests for compliance.

[N51_rob]

Re: Were the cops really in the wrong here?

ODogg, I agree with a ot of the points that you made. I was in no way trying to indite these officers, or that young lady. That tape needs to be shown fully and un edited. Personaly most officers are polite enough that I have no problem with them or how they do their jobs.

It is just to often that tapes like this are being shown and it raises questions about how officers are doing thier jobs. It's not my place to judge them, but I think that there are situations that cops go to far, and on many of these occasions there are no video tapes to support claims of abuse, so each case that offers such evidence need to be looked at with a critical eye to make sure that every letter of that law was followed perfectly (or as close to perfectly as possible.) In my prior statement I said they should be suspened with pay, I ment to say while the investigation is ongoing. Personally I saw nothing grossly wron with how that situation was handled, but I don't know Florida laws. Again I'm not trying to indite these officers, I want things done correctly to ensure that they were doing thier jobs the right way.

[ODogg]

Re: Were the cops really in the wrong here?

ODogg, I agree with a ot of the points that you made. I was in no way trying to indite these officers, or that young lady. That tape needs to be shown fully and un edited. Personaly most officers are polite enough that I have no problem with them or how they do their jobs.

It is just to often that tapes like this are being shown and it raises questions about how officers are doing thier jobs. It's not my place to judge them, but I think that there are situations that cops go to far, and on many of these occasions there are no video tapes to support claims of abuse, so each case that offers such evidence need to be looked at with a critical eye to make sure that every letter of that law was followed perfectly (or as close to perfectly as possible.) In my prior statement I said they should be suspened with pay, I ment to say while the investigation is ongoing. Personally I saw nothing grossly wron with how that situation was handled, but I don't know Florida laws. Again I'm not trying to indite these officers, I want things done correctly to ensure that they were doing thier jobs the right way.

Yeah I agree with your statements here too. I would say if they do suspend them to do an investigation (and as you said the FULL tape needs to be seen) then if they are found innocent then they should be reinstated, their records wiped clean and back pay given. I think, contrary to what some people say here, that most police are good people and try to do the right thing. It's a tough job that is under scrutiny constantly so they should be given the benefit of the doubt rather than attacked and convicted by the media which in this news story appears to be the case (from the general tone). But then this is an ongoing problem with the media in regards to both police and the military.

[BigRed]

Re: Were the cops really in the wrong here?

How can anyone say she didn't do anything to get arrested for or to say something like "the facts pretesented here" or whatever. Did you see anyone from the police department making a statement? Anyone representing the police department? How about a video of the call to her appartment? Or maybe even an unedited version of the video while she was in custody?

Um, no, you didn't see any of this.

So to blindly say she did nothing to get arrested for and she did nothing to warrent being restrained is so ignorantly blinded to what may have actually happened, it's sad.

Just because this girl and her dad said she didn't do it, we're supposed to just believe her and condemn these evil police officers?

This is similar to the Rodney King tapes (ATTENTION: not the case or the national ramifications of the case, just the tapes!!!!) and how they were televised by the media. What we all saw, over and over and over again, was the cops beating the crap out of King while he laid on the ground basically motionless.

What we learned to find out (and later see actual footage of) was an intoxicated (i think it was PCP) King fighting with the police. Then, while not being phased by physical action, as well as tasers and mace, King still trying to get up and fight back with the officers.

Again, not to confuse the two cases (just simply looking at how the media has presented the case), but this one-sided reporting and use of termonology like "inmate", "prisoner" and "prison", warp the story into an all out attack on the police, due to people over-reacting to half the story (anyone remember the on-going Duke Lacrosse rape case? Hmmm, hows that witch hunt going for ya?).

Anyway, I will say that there is definately a possibiltiy she commited the lesser of the wrongs (and she was wrong in her actions in the police station), but I'm at least going to hold judgement until I get the other side's version.

[RubenDouglas]

Re: Were the cops really in the wrong here?

N51_rob, to answer part 1 and 2, she was banging on the glass. Look around the 40 second mark on the tape.

Definetly a threat if youre not listening and physically shurgging off the police officers commands as if shes above the law. the report says that about the glass. then she also escaped, which caused the massive takedown effort.