*** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Yea, I get what you're saying here.

It's not a contradiction, it's just a tool to make it easier to understand. They use three years for everyone because it's just easier to follow that way. Let's have Sawyer spend three years in DHARMA land and Jack three years in LA.

But, they aren't actually spending those days the same. The same amount of time is passing for each in their present lives, but they are still powerless to time. So Sun doesn't have to wait 30 years along with them. I get it, though. I see what's running through your mind and trying to explain how it's not like that is even difficult for me to accept.


edit: Man, you are giving me a headache thinking of it too. I know exactly what you're getting at here and it's numbing my brain. But, I know that's not how it works. It's just extremely difficult to separate that. Wow, thanks for that.

Cool, glad you got what I was saying. I would have to watch the scene again, but didn't Sawyer mention that its been 3 years since they have seen eachother and Jack and Kate agreed. That was absolute pure coincidence(Or was it ) That time would only apply to Sawyer. In theory the day after the Losties had left the island, they could have flashed back to 1977. It would have been 3 years for Sawyer and only 1 day for the Losties.

I guess, knowing what we know and knowing we are reading a history book, why would they write it like that?

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Yea, they could have flashed to one day after they left. I don't know why they chose it to be three exactly.

I think it's really just to keep things organized. If everyone says three then we know it's three and we don't have to think that this group is one day, the other group is three years, but they are one year and the fourth is two years and two months.

[HealyMonster]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I understand what you are saying, and that is the way to look at it. You are correct.

I get that, when they show the 1977, you are just reading a history book.

But the writers have contradicted themselves possibly is what I'm trying to point out. But when the writers were showing Sawyer and Juliet in 1974 to 1977 and Jack and Kate in 2004 to 2007 those time operiods were going on Concurrently. They both knew that it had been 3 years since they had seen eachother. 1 day off the island equated to 1 day on the island.

And if Jack does use Faraday's book to change history then you are no longer reading a history book, it goes from being history to being real time. But I don't think he does. I think thats why Jacob(If Jacob is Jack) freaks out when he sees anything to do with technology. Because technology can't be used against destiny or something cheesy like that.

Anyway, yes you are correct. I was just trying to point out that the Writers used the same parralel of exactly 3 years - 1974 to 1977 2004 - 2007. It implies 1 day is 1 day regardless of where you are at. They could have chosen any time for the Losties to pop back, say 1984. 3 years would have passed for the Losties 2004 to 2007 and 10 years passed for Sawyer. See what I'm saying.

yeah I totally get what your saying. Basically if we watched the show for 30 years, going at the arte its going, we would eventually be watching the 1977 Losties become the 2007 losties and are old, and the sun/locke timeline would be old versions of lock/sun in 2037 or something.

I think the 1977(3 years later) shows that jack and them were brought back for a specific purpose. or there are like specific times that need addressed. im not quite sure why sawyer and them needed to go from 74-77, maybe for story purposes like yankee said. but i think jack & co went back to '77 specifically to take part in the "incident"

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

yeah I totally get what your saying. Basically if we watched the show for 30 years, going at the arte its going, we would eventually be watching the 1977 Losties become the 2007 losties and are old, and the sun/locke timeline would be old versions of lock/sun in 2037 or something.

I think the 1977(3 years later) shows that jack and them were brought back for a specific purpose. or there are like specific times that need addressed. im not quite sure why sawyer and them needed to go from 74-77, maybe for story purposes like yankee said. but i think jack & co went back to '77 specifically to take part in the "incident"

Now I have another question......Faraday was on the freighter in 2004, right? From 1974 to 19777 he was on the island or at least following the same timeline as Sawyer, right?

Faraday never lived 2004 to 2007 right? Assuming he really was killed by his mother. The last known time the outside world saw Faraday was 2004?

[HealyMonster]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Now I have another question......Faraday was on the freighter in 2004, right? From 1974 to 19777 he was on the island or at least following the same timeline as Sawyer, right?

Faraday never lived 2004 to 2007 right? Assuming he really was killed by his mother. The last known time the outside world saw Faraday was 2004?

yeah he was on the freighter in 2004, got caught up in the time shift with locke sawyer, juliette and charlott and miles. Locke turned the wheel and left, charlott died, sawyer, julliette,etc joined dharma and somehow faraday went on to ann arbor to the dharma research spot. then he returned to the island right before he died in 1977.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

yeah he was on the freighter in 2004, got caught up in the time shift with locke sawyer, juliette and charlott and miles. Locke turned the wheel and left, charlott died, sawyer, julliette,etc joined dharma and somehow faraday went on to ann arbor to the dharma research spot. then he returned to the island right before he died in 1977.

So when Hawking saw Desmond in the hospital in 2007, she said for the first time she didn't know what was going to happen next.......

Where is she getting her info from?

I assume she doesn't know whats going to happen next because its real time now and before she was reading writings from Faraday, but she must have other ties to the island to get info. But they made it sound like when the island was moved in 2004, it was unfindable until the Oceanic 6 went back in 2007. And if Faradays writings essentially stopped in 2004, how would Hawking know what happened betwen 2004 and 2007.

Not really important, but something I thought about.

[Coug00]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

So when Hawking saw Desmond in the hospital in 2007, she said for the first time she didn't know what was going to happen next.......

Where is she getting her info from?

I assume she doesn't know whats going to happen next because its real time now and before she was reading writings from Faraday, but she must have other ties to the island to get info. But they made it sound like when the island was moved in 2004, it was unfindable until the Oceanic 6 went back in 2007. And if Faradays writings essentially stopped in 2004, how would Hawking know what happened betwen 2004 and 2007.

Not really important, but something I thought about.

In a linear path Faraday's writings stopped in 2004, but he lived for 3 more years, so there was an additional three years worth of writings in his journal (which included running into 3 people from 2007).

And younger Hawking is walking around (in 1977) with two people who just came from 2007. She could easily ask them a bunch of questions (how they got here, etc.) and then remember 30 years later.

On another similar note, I'm wondering if there's a link between Charles being kicked off the island and Daniel's last name being Faraday, and not Whidmore or Hawking. Is it possibly another man Eloise turns to and Charles kills him in jealousy? We learned on Thursday that Eloise and Charles's relationship was "complicated" (or something like that from Richard).

[ODogg]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I must say that this is one of my favorite series but I have to speak my mind about this time travel business. I've read a lot and thought a lot about time travel and I believe this show is full of paradoxes. How they might eventually explain them is anyone's guess but so far it's just becoming a big, tangled mess of impossible.

I thought maybe it was just me until I found this web site with a fellow who describes a lot of it in very precise terms.

http://tvoholic.com/episode-reviews/lost-time-travel-paradoxes-alternate-timelines-and-how-cuse-lindelof-are-messing-with-us/

Check it out and let me know what you think. I will still be watching this week because this is one of the few shows IMO that treats its audiences as intelligent human beings. But I must say that perhaps they are underestimating the public's fascination, some may call it obsession, with the theory and understanding of time travel.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I must say that this is one of my favorite series but I have to speak my mind about this time travel business. I've read a lot and thought a lot about time travel and I believe this show is full of paradoxes. How they might eventually explain them is anyone's guess but so far it's just becoming a big, tangled mess of impossible.

I thought maybe it was just me until I found this web site with a fellow who describes a lot of it in very precise terms.

http://tvoholic.com/episode-reviews/lost-time-travel-paradoxes-alternate-timelines-and-how-cuse-lindelof-are-messing-with-us/

Check it out and let me know what you think. I will still be watching this week because this is one of the few shows IMO that treats its audiences as intelligent human beings. But I must say that perhaps they are underestimating the public's fascination, some may call it obsession, with the theory and understanding of time travel.

I don't really trust these producers. I think you could call them out on quite a few things once the show ends......

In the end the paradoxes will be because Desmond's special...yada yada.

They left the realm of realism a long time ago. There won't be a reasonable scientific explanation for the smoke monster and other things so why would they have to follow the known theories on time travel?

I'm more interested in them sticking to the boundaries for which they created. But I'm in the camp that they are constantly re-working the original story to keep us all "Lost" to a certain degree.

[ODogg]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I don't really trust these producers. I think you could call them out on quite a few things once the show ends......

In the end the paradoxes will be because Desmond's special...yada yada.

They left the realm of realism a long time ago. There won't be a reasonable scientific explanation for the smoke monster and other things so why would they have to follow the known theories on time travel?

I'm more interested in them sticking to the boundaries for which they created. But I'm in the camp that they are constantly re-working the original story to keep us all "Lost" to a certain degree.

I agree with you basically but here's the thing, when certain very simple premises in regards to time travel are not followed it makes one begin to think that there is no point in intellectually trying to follow the show anymore. If you just watch it for fun, which some do, without thinking, it sort of takes a lot out of the show. I believe that is why people such as the author of that article continue to try to make sense out of what may be just simply bad writing.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Ok, first of all, no one knows how time travel works. That's a fact. We all can only hypothesize what actually can happen or not happen. No one's ever done it. You can throw figures, studies, etc. at me and the fact of the matter is, no one really knows. It's all an assumption based only on the knowledge we have up to this point. We simply do not know enough about the universe to even seriously believe that we can fully understand time travel. Even the theory of relativity is basically a theory.

That alone means that there are no rules to time travel. How can there be rules to something we don't even understand completely? There are rules that were created by others shows and movies, but those rules were created by them. Doc Brown goes around saying that if you run into yourself it'll cause a paradox. What actually happens? You faint. That's the humor in it because as smart as Doc Brown is, he didn't really know what would happen. He just assumed that meeting yourself would be a crazy notion so something bad must happen. It ended up not being that serious after all.

The absolute second that Desmond jumped back in time and relived his past, Lost etched new rules. Or rather, they wrote rules that apply to their story. They made it abundantly clear before time travel was even a huge part of their story that Desmond was working outside of whatever they threw at you. Call it duex ex machina, call it stupid, call it illogical. The point is, they made it very clear pretty quickly. It was clear before we knew that time travel would be such a huge part of their story.

On to his reasons why he thinks the rule of one time line was broken.

1. Eloise the rat being taught how to run the maze.

This is a confusing one and admittedly, I think it was meant to be confusing on purpose. Eloise goes through a situation that we have not actually witnessed just yet. See, the Losties are traveling back in time and by traveling back in time, you are aware of what happens after. You know that if you travel 5 minutes back, you can recall what you will do in those five minutes. However, Eloise does not simply travel back in time. Instead, she travels to the future.

I brought up that I was surprised that the Losties had jumped to the future. We saw this when Locke knew where he would be after he was shot. We didn't know until that point that in at least one of those flashes, the Losties had jumped to 2007. I brought this up because up to that point, the only thing we've seen is the Losties moving back in time. And I make this statement for a reason because when it comes down to meeting Jacob, I will bet that the introduction of traveling forward in time will become extremely relevant for Locke, Ben, Richard, and the Others. In other words, we were shown that seen for a reason. A subtle reason, but a reason nonetheless.

This is where Eloise the rat comes in. She was the first subject to travel through time. Her experience is unlike anyone else's so we cannot use information gathered up to this point to explain her experience. We simply do not know and will not know until we see this happen again. It's also important to note that it's Eloise's consciousness that moves through time and not her body. That sort of out of body experience is very different here. We do not see Eloise the rat actually move through time. She only becomes aware of her future.

The matter of Dan needing to teach her how to run the maze again, though she supposedly already knew how to, was actually explained. The article writer is forgetting that Dan has talked constantly about the need for a Constant. He mentions his mistake with Eloise and her struggle to accept her reality, her experience. She has no constant to discern the present from the past or future. Whether that makes sense or not, the point is that there is not enough information to completely understand Eloise the rat's experience and why her need for a constant forced her to need to relearn something she already knew.

2. Desmond giving Dan the numbers.

First things first here is the mere mention of Desmond. I already went into how Desmond is an anomoly. How this will be explained, I don't know but it's the reason why I constantly jump in every few episodes and talk about Desmond being the most important character to the series. I know people will continue to doubt me, but when a single character works against the rules set by the writers of Lost, it only makes you wonder why this specific character is being given that gift. There's a reason and that reason must be major considering that time is such a huge part of the story. Right? I think so.

Well, this is a bit confusing because as it happens, Dan tells Desmond to go to his college and give him the numbers. Numbers that Dan does not know in 1996 and will eventually help him learn more about time travel. The article writer states that this cannot have happened unless it happened. Consider me lost here.

It has been established several times already that events of the past are a direct result of events in the future, or people of the future. Ben becoming an Other is a result of Sayid shooting him in the chest. That always happens. Why does the article writer believe that this is different for Desmond giving Dan the numbers?

Dan in 2003 knows the Numbers because Desmond of 1996 gives him those Numbers. My assumption is that he wants to believe that Daniel was never given those Numbers by Desmond. That he instead tells Desmond to give him those numbers so that he would believe him. However, there is no difference here when explaining Sayid's actions. It's all the same. And Daniel's book is the reason why. When that episode concludes, Daniel opens the book and sees that he has written "Desmond is your constant." He writes that in the book because he learns that in 1996.

So why does Dan not remember this? This is also explained. We learned just a couple episodes back that Daniel was having memory problems. Memory problems that were resolved once he set foot on the Island (see: Rose and her cancer, Locke and his legs). This is all being written and it's all making sense. The article writer is either forgetting or ignoring certain events to explain his confusion. He is confused and going over some facts will probably help him better understand the story here. Maybe he needs to visit lostpedia more often.

Now onto the more important part here. Ther is no doubt that Lost is jumping into uncharted territory. The rules of time are different here. That's official. The article writer wants to allude to the possibility that the writers are being vague in stating that they are not fans of paradoxes and that things happen as they happen in terms of time, and I do think they are being slightly vague, but the reasons are not to break set rules. The reasons are because Lost is presenting to it's viewers new rules. Rules that apply to this series.

There have been many questions concerning Desmond's talk with Charles Widmore back in Season 3. The varying mirrors, upside down art, restructured parts of the room, all in one sitting have led many to wonder, why? Why did this happen? And how is it happening? I'll admit I never noticed the changed pictures in Miles home, but this is just another way of showing us that there is some sort of shift here, though that shift does not appear to be through time travel.

Jacob's cabin moving, the Island jumping to different locations: all reasons to know that there is something happening here that causes a shift in reality that may or may not be directly associated to time travel. We should assume that the writers are right. You cannot change what has happened. But, if we are to accept that then we should also accept that there is something going on. They have told us that Desmond is different and there are events occuring on and off the Island that suggest a shift in reality.

This does not make Lost wrong. It doesn't mean they broke the rules. It means they have a different opinion on how time travel works and since there are no real rules to time travel, there is no real reason to become angry over their interpretation.

[HealyMonster]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I wont quote you yankee in order to save some trees, or something like that, but dude, your on a different level with this show my friend.

I agree with everything you said though. I want to say I read somewhere, maybe in the finale that some desmond questions are answered. Not sure if you caught the podcast on dark ufo but it has the producers talking about the finale.

[peteykirch]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

All I got to say is that the newest Lost Podcast makes this finale seem pretty epic.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Some good stuff in that podcast. I don't usually listen to them, but when I do it's mostly a comedy to me. There are no spoilers at all.

It was nice to hear:

1. Damon Lindeloff claiming that by the end of the S6 Premiere, fans should be able to realistically draw up a theory on the show that holds water. We will at that point have enough information.

2. Much like I thought, there are mythical milestones that they try to reach every season, but how they get there is pretty much unknown. For example, they knew they wanted Faraday to be with Sawyer in DHARMA times, but they initially thought that Faraday would always be there. Having him come from Ann Arbor was a relatively new idea for them.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

The whole scene where Daniel tells Desmond to find his mother has me the most confused. Desmond shouldn't have awakened in the present all of a sudden knowing to see Eloise, he should have known it all along.

Yes we know Desmond is special. But the writers need to have a good explanation why. Otherwise it will just be silly.

So yeah, given that Desmond is special, and What happened didn't happen to Desmond. All they really need to do is get him back in time somehow and he can unwind everything. I don't think that will happen, but it could. Have Jack meet him in 2003 and then tell him what to do. ANd Desmond can act upon that because what happened to Desmond didn't happen.