Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Spoiler

I'm not talking about the projections of Mal, I'm talking about his memories of her when he's describing their time in limbo to Page's character. Also, Paige's character shifts from student to adventurer. It's not impossible for someone to find a convoluted explanation for her being a projection, but the much simpler explanation is that she is a person. Both she and the Indian dude don't previously have any meaning for Cobb. Thematically, she represents his previously unscarred self, but in context she does a lot of things that could only come from her personal experience. If she weren't a person, it would be a big storytelling error to show her making her totem.

[Brankles]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Spoiler

I'm not talking about the projections of Mal, I'm talking about his memories of her when he's describing their time in limbo to Page's character. Also, Paige's character shifts from student to adventurer. It's not impossible for someone to find a convoluted explanation for her being a projection, but the much simpler explanation is that she is a person. Both she and the Indian dude don't previously have any meaning for Cobb. Thematically, she represents his previously unscarred self, but in context she does a lot of things that could only come from her personal experience. If she weren't a person, it would be a big storytelling error to show her making her totem.

Spoiler

The Architect was the most human out of all the other characters, but she still didn't have much depth. If she was to be a projection, she would almost be Cobb's conscience because she is constantly questioning everything he does and ultimately allows him to come to grips with himself.

Also, I've seen a lot of people make the statement about a person being a totem, but I don't really see how that could work. I thought it had to be some sort of inanimate object.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Spoiler

They specify that a totem must be an object that you carry around with you, with a particular weight that only you know. They also specify that Cobb only had two objects on his person when he went to meet Saito. His gun is stretching the definition of a totem and everything else flat out breaks that rule. So it had to be the top.

The nature of any film built around a character requires that the surrounding characters represent aspects of the main character's psyche. That being said, I don't buy her as his conscience throughout the film. At different points in the story, every character influences his moral decisions somewhat. Most notably Levitt and the Professor. For Cobb to be dreaming teh whole thing would break too many rules of the film to make this a viable theory.

-No one ever has a dream that they are not consciously participating in.
-In Gordon Levitt's entire 2nd layer scene, he is the only dreamer that is conscious, indicating that the scene is from his perspective--a real person's perspective
-there is no other dream sequence in the movie rooted in someone's isolated perspective in this way
-again, Paige's totem scene
-the weaponization of the CEO's son's brain. For this to all be a projection coming from Cobb, Cobb would have to have weaponized his own mind and shot at himself with his own subconscious. That's a much sloppier logic than the straightforward narrative that is apparent in the film in which they all wake up in real life in the plane

Spoiler

The Architect was the most human out of all the other characters, but she still didn't have much depth. If she was to be a projection, she would almost be Cobb's conscience because she is constantly questioning everything he does and ultimately allows him to come to grips with himself.

Also, I've seen a lot of people make the statement about a person being a totem, but I don't really see how that could work. I thought it had to be some sort of inanimate object.

[Brankles]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Spoiler

They specify that a totem must be an object that you carry around with you, with a particular weight that only you know. They also specify that Cobb only had two objects on his person when he went to meet Saito. His gun is stretching the definition of a totem and everything else flat out breaks that rule. So it had to be the top.

The nature of any film built around a character requires that the surrounding characters represent aspects of the main character's psyche. That being said, I don't buy her as his conscience throughout the film. At different points in the story, every character influences his moral decisions somewhat. Most notably Levitt and the Professor. For Cobb to be dreaming teh whole thing would break too many rules of the film to make this a viable theory.

-No one ever has a dream that they are not consciously participating in.
-In Gordon Levitt's entire 2nd layer scene, he is the only dreamer that is conscious, indicating that the scene is from his perspective--a real person's perspective
-there is no other dream sequence in the movie rooted in someone's isolated perspective in this way
-again, Paige's totem scene
-the weaponization of the CEO's son's brain. For this to all be a projection coming from Cobb, Cobb would have to have weaponized his own mind and shot at himself with his own subconscious. That's a much sloppier logic than the straightforward narrative that is apparent in the film in which they all wake up in real life in the plane

Spoiler

Good points.

Others have mentioned it, but the ending adds (artificially or not) depth to the meaning of the characters.

Could Cobb be imagining every single dream level? Or does he need the other characters to dream those levels like the movie suggests? It seems more plausible that they're real people and not projections, but the open-endedness of the dream state allows for a lot of interpretation.

****Shutter Island SPOILER****
Shutter Island did the same kind of thing. Any question you might have had about the character or a plot hole could be explained by Leo's perceived craziness or some kind of drug they fed him. It is a cheap way to add depth, but it's also fun to look at when watching the movie again.
**** END SPOILER******


If he's still dreaming at the end, then all of those characters could be projections. If not, they could all be real. That's kind of how I see it. They had enough and lacked enough personality and humanity to be viewed either way. I truly feel Nolan did that on purpose and not just because he's a bad writer who couldn't or didn't want to develop the characters.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Spoiler

I think anyone can put together an argument that the whole thing is a dream, but not a very good one. That whole discussion would be based on Nolan lying to you more than once throughout the film during specific times where he's using exposition to explain the rules of the movie.

Usually this isn't the case.


The more likely simple explanation is that whole movie is straightforward, doing everything that it claims to be doing, and the bit at the end just represents Cobb finding balance in his world again, but Nolan was savvy enough to know how to do it in a way that would provoke BS discussion.

I'd strongly disagree with the idea on his characterization. I think he just went for "sci fi grim tone" which he has done before. The only real difference was this time there was no love story or charismatic hero to distract us from it. He's a talented storyteller and a talented writer, but I don't think his strength is in character, and with so many concepts and information to communicate, he just didn't have time or ability to bring that depth to this narrative.
For more evidence of this, I say look no further than the flashbacks between Mal and Leo. Ideally, you'd want a warmth and love to hook us in and show us the specialness of that relationship so we can identify with all of Leo's past decisions and root for the future ones. Instead we have two scientists building skylines in their own petrie dish.

In none of his films he shown this to be a strength of his storytelling. It's just that Inception is so original and demanding of the audience's participation, he had to make sacrifices.

I'm even going to take a leap and say I wouldn't be surprised if we see some scenes attempting to establish humanity in the Blue Ray deleted scenes.

Spoiler

Good points.

Others have mentioned it, but the ending adds (artificially or not) depth to the meaning of the characters.

Could Cobb be imagining every single dream level? Or does he need the other characters to dream those levels like the movie suggests? It seems more plausible that they're real people and not projections, but the open-endedness of the dream state allows for a lot of interpretation.

****Shutter Island SPOILER****
Shutter Island did the same kind of thing. Any question you might have had about the character or a plot hole could be explained by Leo's perceived craziness or some kind of drug they fed him. It is a cheap way to add depth, but it's also fun to look at when watching the movie again.
**** END SPOILER******


If he's still dreaming at the end, then all of those characters could be projections. If not, they could all be real. That's kind of how I see it. They had enough and lacked enough personality and humanity to be viewed either way. I truly feel Nolan did that on purpose and not just because he's a bad writer who couldn't or didn't want to develop the characters.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

I saw this again tonight and:

Spoiler

The hallway fight scenes are still glorious. Goodness. Nolan is actually learning how to capture a fight, still some things to improve on, but definitely better than his previous fight scenes.

I still love the layering of the different dreams and how they all interact - I just think its cool and watching it unfold in the last half of film is creative and fascinating to me.

There really isn't much to support that the whole movie could be a dream. After the initial viewing, sure, but watching it a second time with that thought in your mind the whole way through it just doesn't make sense. I still like the final shot because it plays on what the film was setting up in the storyline, but that's pretty much it.

I like how Born has compared this to a heist story and I remember hearing the movie compared similarly a year or so ago and that comparison is definitely on the nose.

Not sure where I would rank this among Nolan's films - behind Memento and TDK, not sure about Batman Begins, but in front of Insomnia and The Prestige for sure.

[Cebby]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Not sure where I would rank this among Nolan's films - behind Memento and TDK, not sure about Batman Begins, but in front of Insomnia and The Prestige for sure.

In terms of overall quality I'd go:

TDK

Memento/Inception

Batman Begins



The Prestige
*huge gap*
Insomnia

However, as a pure Chris Nolan movie, I think Inception was the best of his movies. TDK had so much existing source material to draw from and an all time performance from Ledger, and Memento, while brilliantly directed, wasn't the amazing concept that Inception was (especially since it was co-written).

The concept and direction of Inception are what bring it to another level to me.

[thaima1shu]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

It's a tossup right now between TDK and Inception. TDK is probably my favorite movie, but after seeing this ... I don't know. I definitely have to watch it again, but this is definitely right up there with it.

[Cusefan]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Im a little late to the party but I saw this last night. Amazing movie, gonna have to go back when it hits the dollar theater.

[Splitter77]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

probably gonna see this again tonite for a second viewing (Tuesday nites are only $6 a flick).

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

In terms of overall quality I'd go:

TDK

Memento/Inception

Batman Begins



The Prestige
*huge gap*
Insomnia

However, as a pure Chris Nolan movie, I think Inception was the best of his movies. TDK had so much existing source material to draw from and an all time performance from Ledger, and Memento, while brilliantly directed, wasn't the amazing concept that Inception was (especially since it was co-written).

The concept and direction of Inception are what bring it to another level to me.

I definitely agree with you about the Inception concept. The whole layering of the dreams and the interaction between those layers is really well done and unfolds nicely in the movie.

Personally, I would have:

Memento
TDK
Inception
Batman Begins
The Prestige
*gap*
Insomnia

Overall, I think Memento is his best film because the character interactions are more interesting and the whole idea/storyline that is actually behind the concept is great. The ending to Inception makes it appear that there's more in the film to dissect/analyze to determine what was real/dream when really that wasn't the case. Memento is the opposite and I thought it was more satisfying and rewarding in a way when I figured out the complete story.

Really, those first 3 are just so amazing it doesn't really matter what order they're in. While Insomnia may be his weakest film, its not a bad film, but that's just how strong Nolan has been.

[jmood88]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Well he didn't write Insonmia so I wouldn't even rank it with the other movies.

[Cebby]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Overall, I think Memento is his best film because the character interactions are more interesting and the whole idea/storyline that is actually behind the concept is great. The ending to Inception makes it appear that there's more in the film to dissect/analyze to determine what was real/dream when really that wasn't the case. Memento is the opposite and I thought it was more satisfying and rewarding in a way when I figured out the complete story.

I think people get caught up too much on Inception's ending.

Spoiler

My interpretation after viewing it a second time was the same as the Cobb's; it doesn't matter whether it was real or a dream.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

I think people get caught up too much on Inception's ending.

Spoiler

My interpretation after viewing it a second time was the same as the Cobb's; it doesn't matter whether it was real or a dream.

I agree

Spoiler

Watching it again, there really isn't anything there to suggest that it is a dream other then the early cut out.

[Misfit]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

I definitely agree with you about the Inception concept. The whole layering of the dreams and the interaction between those layers is really well done and unfolds nicely in the movie.

Personally, I would have:

Memento
TDK
Inception
Batman Begins
The Prestige
*gap*
Insomnia

Overall, I think Memento is his best film because the character interactions are more interesting and the whole idea/storyline that is actually behind the concept is great. The ending to Inception makes it appear that there's more in the film to dissect/analyze to determine what was real/dream when really that wasn't the case. Memento is the opposite and I thought it was more satisfying and rewarding in a way when I figured out the complete story.

Really, those first 3 are just so amazing it doesn't really matter what order they're in. While Insomnia may be his weakest film, its not a bad film, but that's just how strong Nolan has been.

I know some people who think Insomnia is his best work. For me, I've enjoyed them all and I don't see a point in ranking them. Nolan hasn't made a bad movie yet, and none of the ones he's made have been forgettable or just okay, they've all been great.