Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

[DonkeyJote]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

5. His name is Jaime, and I can't help it when his story makes me sympathize a little bit, though I really shouldn't.

I disagree with the "shouldn't" part. I think that's part of what makes these books so great is that, for the most part, there isn't any black or white (except probably Joffrey). Jaime isn't really evil. It's a little sick what he did with his sister, but everything after that has a justification. Throwing Bran out the window saves his own life, Cersei's, and probably all three royal children. Even killing the Mad King. He doesn't do it to forsake an oath. He does it because he believes it should be done. The guy was insane. Ned's wife had taken his brother (and even then, he fought Ned honorably til some idiot drove a spear through his leg). Personally, Jaime is one of my favorite characters, both in the books and the show, because he is probably the most complex.

[Sundown2600]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

I think Arya and Gendry's exchange was very telling. Arya seems to forget that she is a highborn girl among lowborn ppl. First Hot Pie and now Gendry had to remind her exactly what she is and what they are. The pain on her face showed that she finally accepted that truth. Great scene.

[Leon]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

I disagree with the "shouldn't" part. I think that's part of what makes these books so great is that, for the most part, there isn't any black or white (except probably Joffrey). Jaime isn't really evil. It's a little sick what he did with his sister, but everything after that has a justification. Throwing Bran out the window saves his own life, Cersei's, and probably all three royal children. Even killing the Mad King. He doesn't do it to forsake an oath. He does it because he believes it should be done. The guy was insane. Ned's wife had taken his brother (and even then, he fought Ned honorably til some idiot drove a spear through his leg). Personally, Jaime is one of my favorite characters, both in the books and the show, because he is probably the most complex.

Pushing a kid out a window to his likely death is not justified. I can understand the motivations behind it, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.

I ride with House Stark, I need them to catch some W's. George RR Martin will probably only give 1 after the "bad guys" get 5.

[DonkeyJote]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

Pushing a kid out a window to his likely death is not justified. I can understand the motivations behind it, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.

I ride with House Stark, I need them to catch some W's. George RR Martin will probably only give 1 after the "bad guys" get 5.

You don't think the vast majority of people would kill a child to save their own children? Because I think they would.

[N51_rob]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

Jamie is a dynamic character and the changes that he is going through are pretty awesome to read and witness. There are a couple of characters who's changes/growth/development are a credit to the writing and storytelling skill of Martin.

Spoiler

For example despite how boring AFFC was. Martin's writing of Cersi's fall from grace was pretty damn good IMO

[AuburnAlumni]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

Much like the TV version of Tywin is outstanding, Lady Oleanna Tyrell is easily one of my new favorite TV characters. She's good in the books as well, but I think her television counterpart is even better.

[Leon]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

You don't think the vast majority of people would kill a child to save their own children? Because I think they would.

I'm not jaded enough to think so. Then again, we're discussing Westeros here, not the real world.

Again, I understand Jaime's reasons. Doesn't mean I have to agree nor like it. His story is making him more sympathetic. I like his character's complexity, but not enough to root for his or any Lannister's success (bar Tyrion).

[trobinson97]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

You don't think the vast majority of people would kill a child to save their own children? Because I think they would.

I don't think Jaime's immediate motivations were Joffrey and the others. He was thinking about his and Cersei's head first and foremost imo.

[DonkeyJote]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

I don't think Jaime's immediate motivations were Joffrey and the others. He was thinking about his and Cersei's head first and foremost imo.

I disagree, but I've read the books, so I have the benefit of both reading deeper into the story, and reading chapters that are through Jaime's perspective.

[trobinson97]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

I've read the books as well so there's that. He's in love with his sister, not a caring father. All he wanted was to be with his sister, he cares about her. That's the reason he pushed Bran out of the window, to protect Cersei and their relationship. Whatever benefit that gave to the children was just bonus I suppose, but that wasn't his main concern.

Spoiler

I don't see how you could come to the conclusion that he cares about those kids from the books anyway. I don't recall anything saying that he cared much about Joffrey and the others, in fact, the evidence is to the contrary. For instance, when he found out Joffry was dead, it didn't seem to affect him much.

[N51_rob]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

I've read the books as well so there's that. He's in love with his sister, not a caring father. All he wanted was to be with his sister, he cares about her. That's the reason he pushed Bran out of the window, to protect Cersei and their relationship. Whatever benefit that gave to the children was just bonus I suppose, but that wasn't his main concern.

Spoiler

I don't see how you could come to the conclusion that he cares about those kids from the books anyway. I don't recall anything saying that he cared much about Joffrey and the others, in fact, the evidence is to the contrary. For instance, when he found out Joffry was dead, it didn't seem to affect him much.

Spoiler

I tend to agree with this. Even after Joffrey's death and he is standing guard over his "son" he has sex with Cersi in the crypt in front of Joffrey's casket. If memory serves correctly

[DonkeyJote]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

Spoiler

I don't remember where, as it has been over a year since I've read the books, but I remember a part when Jaime is lamenting the loss of Joffrey, and says something along the lines of never being able to acknowledge him. Again, it's been a while, so I may be wrong, but I remember that being the case.

[trobinson97]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

Spoiler

I don't remember where, as it has been over a year since I've read the books, but I remember a part when Jaime is lamenting the loss of Joffrey, and says something along the lines of never being able to acknowledge him. Again, it's been a while, so I may be wrong, but I remember that being the case.

Just to be sure, I went back and scanned a couple of chapters in A Storm of Swords. This is kind of long, but it drives the point home.

Spoiler

In chapter 62, when Jaime is told the how and when of Joffrey's death he remarks to himself how he felt nothing. When he tried to think about Joffrey, all he could think of was Cersei. When Joffrey was born, Jaime was there only for Cersei. He felt no love for Joff, and felt jealous actually because the baby took up so much of Cersei's time, and body.

He thought to himself that if the Gods had offered him a choice of getting his hand or his son back, he'd choose his hand.

When he went to the sept where Cersei was mourning, he did not reflect on Joffrey at all except that the armor they dressed him in looking similar to his own. He had sex with Cersei in the sept right there in front of his son's body. When Cersei expressed her emotions over Joff having been murdered, he said something to the effect of "Don't worry about it, I got plenty more seed where that came from, I'll just give you another one."


In chapter 72, when Jaime and Cersei are talking his room, she is trying to get him to talk Tywin out of making Tommen marry Margary. She tries to use the old "he's your son" line but he responds that Tommen is just his seed, that Cersei herself had told him to not show any undue interest in them and he didn't.

Later he gives his sword to Brienne and tells her to go find Sansa and keep her safe. When she asks him why he wants to help Sansa when she is suspected of killing Joffrey he replies in his thoughts "Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei's c***. And because he deserved to die." Those are his thoughts, which means that's him being honest with himself.

Your original point was that the bad things Jaime did, for example, shoving Bran out of the window to kill him, were justifiable somehow. That Jaime did it because of some noble motive to protect his children, which I disagree with.

I do agree that Jaime is a good character in the sense that he is complex and not completely evil, but he does do evil things for evil purposes, such as attempting to murder a child so that he can continue his incest with his sister uninterrupted.

Spoiler

he did express shame in his doing that however

He is not an honorable man either though, but he does do honorable things, like helping Brienne to not get raped. But there are only two, maybe three characters in the series aside from himself that I think he cares for: Cersei and Tyrion are the definite two, maybe Brienne as the third (he cared enough to not see her raped at least).

[rdnk]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

I do agree that Jaime is a good character in the sense that he is complex and not completely evil

I believe that's the case with most of the characters in AGOT, except for maybe Joeffrey.

The Varys/Baelish segment was gold and nicely tied the episode together.

[SlimKibbles]

Re: Game of Thrones Season 3 (aka A Storm of Swords)

Uh... (from tonight's episode)

Spoiler

Correct me if I'm wrong but Melisandre taking Gendry away is different from the books, right? I don't remember that happening. Didn't Gendry just stay with Thoros as a smith and wasn't really heard from again, at least through a AFFC, which is the last one I read?