Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

[CMH]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

You admit that it's been building up over 8 seasons, and then say that it's sudden or rushed? That is quite a contradiction.
.

It would be if that's what I said.


I said it's been building up for her to turn.



That said, there wasn't enough motivation for her character to do it now.


It's only being done now because the writers had no choice (a choice they created) but to rush to the ending.



None of the reasons given are enough and it's clear that it wasn't enough when many people aren't connecting with it.

[CMH]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

I'm not trying to be a dick. But I don't understand how people can't grasp that Dany could turn so quick. Like we needed two seasons for her to get to that point.

Maybe you just like a deeper story. But I don't think that was rushed as much as some of you claim.





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Were you watching the same show as me? Or did you miss how it took several episodes for people to get to places and build a character?


Season 8 has been on fast forward. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.



Dany got to where she is but they simply skipped everything in-between. In the context of how the show has been displayed all season, it makes sense. Character motivation no longer exists on this show.


The creators got to their end. Good for them, I guess. It's not Game of Thrones, the show that became a mega-hit because of its pacing and story.

[jeremym480]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

I'm not trying to be a dick. But I don't understand how people can't grasp that Dany could turn so quick. Like we needed two seasons for her to get to that point.

Maybe you just like a deeper story. But I don't think that was rushed as much as some of you claim.





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No one is surprised that Dany went mad, that's been telegraphed since the beginning. Some of us are upset about how and when she went that mad. I mean, that's the definition of 0 to 100, for real.

My beef is because she had Kings Landing won. It was over, people were surrendering and she chose scorched earth (literally) for no reason. She never even gave ruling a chance and burned innocents based on assumptions.

The people of Winterfell love Jon because he grew up a Stark and because he was already their King before. However, the people of Kings Landing or the rest of the Seven Kingdoms have no loyalty or allegiance to Jon so for her just to assume that they would accept him as their King just didn't make much sense.

If Dany would have gotten a taste of ruling, saw that people weren't accepting her, grew more and more paranoid, then went the Mad Queen route, that would have been a more logical progression.

Basically, her "kids", Jorah, and Missandei all died in vain because Dany ended up just as bad or worse than Cersei. No one will ever love or respect her as a Queen knowing that she killed thousands of innocent people. Everyone will line up to take their shot at her the first chance they get.

If she could have at least sat on the throne and realized that no one would accept her and all that she worked for meant nothing. Then that was what caused her to flip, that's just a much logical story, in my opinion.

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[CMH]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

If Dany would have gotten a taste of ruling, saw that people weren't accepting her, grew more and more paranoid, then went the Mad Queen route, that would have been a more logical progression.

This exactly.


She has no idea that no one would accept her. Jon doesn't even want the throne.


We are being told to defend her actions based on what we the audience are being told but not what the character herself has experienced. No one has outright rejected her but one person and she toasted him.


A better story is what was quoted. She takes the throne and slowly slides into madness as she watches person after person across the Seven Kingdoms reject her claim.



I mean, we aren't even acknowledging that it's SEVEN kingdoms. Like we've had a story of two and she didn't even see if the other 5 would be like, "Yeah but we like her."


Instead she flips a switch because she sees the Red Keep (D&D are the worst and should stop talking) or because they killed a second dragon (the innocent people didn't do that) or because Jon Snow has a better claim (dangerous but situations have been handled before), or because Sansa hates her (like OMG), or because they killed Missandei (but when was the last time they even hung out?). None of this stuff is about the actual throne but the Jon Snow situation.


Why not let that play out so we can actually see her losing what she wanted? That's a good story. And it's honestly what most of this season should have been about.

[Cardot]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

Good points about Dany's illogical flip. But I was ok with it because she is bat sh!t crazy. Always has been. From season 1 when she walked into the fire. Logic kind of goes out the window with someone like that.

[TMagic]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

She already had fear. Burning the city will just turn everyone against her. You're saying Dany is like Joffrey? Her brother was more like that, she's closer to Tommen but even then not the same. I'm not seeing her like that.

The Mad King was losing his ****, Dany is rightfully worried her spot will be taken. In that sense, she's not mad she's just protective. Seems like it would've made more sense for her to try to lead the people away from Cersei and get them behind her because the people were never behind Cersei to begin with.

She doesn't care about people turning people against her at this point....which is why she was a-ok with lighting them up. Fear is a powerful motivator. Maybe the biggest human motivator that there is. So despite them WANTING to turn against her, they won't. Not now and not in the future when the story spreads. At least, thats the thought process.

And if you think Dany is more like Tommen than she is Joffrey, then I just don't know what I can tell you. Tommen...the dude that hurt NO ONE. The dude that let his wife, the woman he loved, THE QUEEN get kidnapped and tortured. The dude that let his mother get kidnapped and tortured. The same dude that let some ragtag group of fanatics run him away with the kingsguard at his back. The dude that actually JOINED the group that did this to the people he loved most. The dude that watched his wife die...then proceeded to commit suicide.

That's who you think is more like Dany. We must be watching different shows man. Lol

Just because she said those things, she still didn't behave in such a way that told you she would simply flip the switch because of a couple of bad things happening to her. She's had bad things happen to her all series. Now she flips? And that suddenly?


Because it was suddenly. That's the thing you all are ignoring. No matter how often the show tried to tell us she will go mad (and we all understand that), she had not started to turn at any point. She simply just went mad. All of a sudden. With little reason.


And no, Jon denying her, her friends dying are not a reason when we've seen far worse happen to her over 7 seasons.

As pointed out, you're being hella contradictory here. You say a couple bad things. Then say, stuff has been happening to her all series. Then say it's sudden and without reason. Then say things have happened to her over seven seasons....huh? [emoji23]

And I don't see how you can say she hadn't started to turn at "any point". At ANY POINT? All of a sudden? No. That is simply wrong. Just in these last two episodes alone. Her dragon (child) killed. Missandei murdered in front of her, in the chains she freed her from. Did you not see how she reacted to that? Then in the beginning of this episode, no one has seen her. She hasn't left her Chambers. When we do finally see her, shes looking BEAT (at least beat for Emilia Clark lol). We've never seen her look so bad. Not once. She's always looking bomb. That wasn't done for fun. It was to show that she's not "right" at the moment. Then she executes Varys and says something about "now people will know what happens when you snitch (about John being the rightful king).

I just can't believe you said "with little reason".

I don't get how people can't see how being ruthless towards people who crossed her, or people who owned slaves she wanted to free, or people who backed her into a corner is different from burning a city of innocents after she had won the battle. Like it's not even in the same stratosphere.

As far as needing to make people fear her, she just won this battle without breaking a sweat. She's burned alive people who betrayed her. Nobody needed 30 minutes of her destroying civilians in a city to see that she means business.

I think you guys arent seeing the big picture. She had nothing.

She lost her claim to the throne. The people in westeros don't care for her. The people she loved most have died. Her advisors no longer believe in her and conspired against her. And now she's losing her "love" John.

She's alone. And the one thing she's put ahead of everything else, this entire show, isn't hers by birthright.

Thing is, she does not want to give that up to anyone. Multiple times she's said she will "take what's mine" no matter the cost. The only way SHE sees herself being able to hold onto what she believes is her destiny is instilling deep rooted fear of her that will last for years.

[kingkilla56]

Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

Foreshadowing is not the same as character development.

People seem to be conflating the two. If Dany was properly developed into the mad queen, people wouldn’t be ranting on and on about this. People wouldn’t feel so betrayed, or become so apathetic (I personally was rooting for apocalypse by white walkers since S5).

She did wild things to her enemies over 8 seasons yes. To her enemies. Who in various ways violated her, as she reminded us in detail S7E3. She never developed before our eyes into someone who would go around burning all living people indiscriminately after the war was already won. Completely ignoring the actual source of her rage; Cersei in the Red Keep. I’m sorry, that character development didn’t happen on anything close to a satisfactory level; and that is the crux of the fallout.

But honestly Dany is only the tip of the iceberg this season in terms of character failings.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

She doesn't care about people turning people against her at this point....which is why she was a-ok with lighting them up. Fear is a powerful motivator. Maybe the biggest human motivator that there is. So despite them WANTING to turn against her, they won't. Not now and not in the future when the story spreads. At least, thats the thought process.

And if you think Dany is more like Tommen than she is Joffrey, then I just don't know what I can tell you. Tommen...the dude that hurt NO ONE. The dude that let his wife, the woman he loved, THE QUEEN get kidnapped and tortured. The dude that let his mother get kidnapped and tortured. The same dude that let some ragtag group of fanatics run him away with the kingsguard at his back. The dude that actually JOINED the group that did this to the people he loved most. The dude that watched his wife die...then proceeded to commit suicide.

That's who you think is more like Dany. We must be watching different shows man. Lol

More like Tommen than Joffrey, I even said I didn't think they were that alike. Did Joffrey ever do anything even remotely redeemable? And you're comparing him to the character who's spent the entire show freeing slaves, and chained up her "children" for killing a child... Joffrey would've been feeding kids to his dragons. There's just no comparison IMO.

[TMagic]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

She has no idea that no one would accept her. Jon doesn't even want the throne.


We are being told to defend her actions based on what we the audience are being told but not what the character herself has experienced. No one has outright rejected her but one person and she toasted him.

That isn't true though. She has experienced this before... repeatedly.

While in the Dothraki Dany was their queen. She never had full support from them as she was an outsider. They were disrespectful to her and only seemed to keep their opinions in check because of Khal Drogo. As soon as he died, what happened? They bounced on her leaving her to die despite her bring their "queen". She was a foreigner and wasn't accepted there.

After liberating slaves and declaring herself their queen...While in Mereen she had lines of people to see about complaints daily. They were never at peace with some even wanting to go back to the ways things were before. There was a riot and she was attacked after she executed one of the former slaves. The Harpy uprising. Etc. She was a foreigner and wasn't accepted there.

The very first place she goes to in Westeros is the north. Dany works alongside the north in defeating the WW at a great personal cost (Army and Dragon). And she's no more liked by those around her than before she stepped foot in Winterfel. She tries to make friends with Sansa and gets nowhere. John himself took forever to "bend the knee". After the long night, John is celebrated. Not her...she notices and tells John herself that they really don't **** with her like that. She was a foreigner and wasn't accepted there either.

Dany was told many times that the people of westeros won't just follow her because of her birthright. All of the above were experiences she's had proving that her advisors were correct.

A better story is what was quoted. She takes the throne and slowly slides into madness as she watches person after person across the Seven Kingdoms reject her claim.

I mean, we aren't even acknowledging that it's SEVEN kingdoms. Like we've had a story of two and she didn't even see if the other 5 would be like, "Yeah but we like her."

Why not let that play out so we can actually see her losing what she wanted? That's a good story. And it's honestly what most of this season should have been about.

Why would she wait for all of that? Varys was literally in the process of undermining her before she even took over Kingslanding. He even looked like he was trying to poison her before he got cooked.

Dany just didnt want to rule Kingslanding. She wants to rule over the entire kingdom. The fear she instilled from her destruction of Kingslanding doesn't just affect the people there. It would have ramifications across the other 6 realms as well. A message was delivered. Bend the knee or the same will happen to you and your loved ones.

And she shows she's merciless. Let's not forget that message here. Cersei tried to bring more people into the walls of the castle because she thought that it would keep Dany and her dragons in check. And it did for a while only because her peeps advised against attacking and killing Innocents. She can be heartless.

Now the other kingdoms know that Dany does not play. If they even think about crossing her or starting a revolt, their loved ones lives will be in danger. They're entire cities burned to the groud.
The other Kingdoms, at least one would expect, will be falling right in line with that threat looming overhead. They might hate her. But they will obey.

Not bad for a foreigner.

[CMH]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

I'm not getting into Dany anymore. Some of you feel it makes sense so it's going to stay that way.





Moving onto other character assassinations.


Arya. Varys. Jaime. Tyrion.



Through 99% of the series, we understood what Arya wanted. I believe her very first scene she's shooting an arrow. That was an immediate introduction to her not being one of the girls. We followed her make a list and repeat it to herself every night. We watched her spend months/years (who knows sometimes) training to be a Faceless. She killed the Night King.


And in one moment, she gives it all up because Sandor tells her she shouldn't be like that. Are you all accepting that bull****?




Varys was cunning and did everything for the realm. He has worked for absolute mad men running the throne. Despite his many whispers, he kept himself alive by being smart and running when necessary. When he grows concerned about Dany, what does he do? The complete opposite. He allows himself to be caught and is surprised to learn that someone rated him out. In what world the past 7 seasons would Varys be dumb enough to let any of those events unfold to lead to his death? But y'all buying that too?




Jaime. What in the actual **** with this storyline. We are introduced to this guy being one of the worst of the Lannisters. But over 7 seasons we learned to see that Jaime wasn't really that bad. He was easily confused by his love for Cersei but he started to understand that he doesn't have to do bad things. He helped Brienne, traveling a full season with her (some of the best moments of the series). He goes up North to apologize for his actions! And then BAM, all of that character development out the door because he absolutely needs to be with Cersei? What was the point of watching him grow as a person? He went right back to who he was in Episode 1. His whole arc was pointless. Are y'all buying that garbage?




There was one thing we all knew about Tyrion. Something that could not be denied no matter what you thought of his strength or size. Tyrion was one of the smartest men in all of Westeros. He knew everything, he knew how to avoid danger, he knew how to read people, he knew what people were thinking, he knew things (and he drank sometimes too). So for the last two seasons and especially this final one, we've now watched Tyrion behave like a bumbling fool all for the sake of creating drama and high stakes. The creators turned Tyrion into an idiot and for no reason at all but just to make it more difficult for success.


As Peter Dinklage himself noted (paraphrased): "Here we have the Night King coming to Winterfell. We know he can raise the dead. And they send the helpless to the crypts where there are dead people? Even Tyrion couldn't see that mistake? I thought he was smarter than that."


And there in lies the idiocy of Game of Thrones the past two seasons. I thought they were smarter than that.

[CMH]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

As pointed out, you're being hella contradictory here. You say a couple bad things. Then say, stuff has been happening to her all series. Then say it's sudden and without reason. Then say things have happened to her over seven seasons....huh? [emoji23]

You're missing the context of what I said.



The point is that those previous things didn't make her go mad. We didn't see them have any impact on her. She was fine after all of those events. So I don't buy that these new things suddenly made her go mad when she didn't go mad earlier after all the other bad things.



Not sure how that's not getting across to you or anyone else. Y'all say she was going to go mad, why didn't she go mad earlier in the series? Explain that please. She lost a dragon earlier in the series. She was raped. She was abandoned. She lost her actual human child. She lost the love of her life. She faced people that didn't like her. All of those things already happened to her. She didn't go mad. So why now? Why do bad things make her go mad now when they didn't make her go mad before? You understand that people that watched the show loved Dany because she was sold as a good person, right?



All they had to do was show her slowly turning mad after all of those previous events. Show her doing something a little bad each time. Instead they went against that. Whether it was her advisors advising she don't do it, or her not doing it, she didn't do any of the bad things she talked about doing.


WWE does a better job of turning faces into heels. With their storylines you see the good guy slowly do bad things. He was wronged and he has a certain look about things. He maybe says something mean once to his tag team partner. He kind of acts like he forgot to tag in, or help out, or step in when needed. Then finally it's the big moment and we see the big turn. That's why WWE is what it is. It sells the turns. It sells the drama over a long period of time.



There should have been some drama with Dany over the last 7 seasons. We should have all been able to say that Dany got some crazy in her. No one EVER said that. Don't go back and be like, "oh we saw it coming." Nah, that's bull****. She was loved by fans for being a good person. No one saw it coming because she always killed bad people or did what she did for the better of everyone. Her saying she'll take cities with fire and blood was led to make us believe she would kill bad people on her way to the top. Never was it hinted she would kill innocent people. Never.



Over 7 seasons, we should have seen her battle with the concept of love or fear. She should be asking herself if she wants to be someone that's feared or someone that is loved. But all she said was that she wanted to be loved.


Little things like that would make her turn more believable.




And with that I'm done with Dany. If you can't see those things then that's on you. I can't help you or anyone any further.

[jake44np]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

You're missing the context of what I said.



The point is that those previous things didn't make her go mad. We didn't see them have any impact on her. She was fine after all of those events. So I don't buy that these new things suddenly made her go mad when she didn't go mad earlier after all the other bad things.



Not sure how that's not getting across to you or anyone else. Y'all say she was going to go mad, why didn't she go mad earlier in the series? Explain that please. She lost a dragon earlier in the series. She was raped. She was abandoned. She lost her actual human child. She lost the love of her life. She faced people that didn't like her. All of those things already happened to her. She didn't go mad. So why now? Why do bad things make her go mad now when they didn't make her go mad before? You understand that people that watched the show loved Dany because she was sold as a good person, right?



All they had to do was show her slowly turning mad after all of those previous events. Show her doing something a little bad each time. Instead they went against that. Whether it was her advisors advising she don't do it, or her not doing it, she didn't do any of the bad things she talked about doing.


WWE does a better job of turning faces into heels. With their storylines you see the good guy slowly do bad things. He was wronged and he has a certain look about things. He maybe says something mean once to his tag team partner. He kind of acts like he forgot to tag in, or help out, or step in when needed. Then finally it's the big moment and we see the big turn. That's why WWE is what it is. It sells the turns. It sells the drama over a long period of time.



There should have been some drama with Dany over the last 7 seasons. We should have all been able to say that Dany got some crazy in her. No one EVER said that. Don't go back and be like, "oh we saw it coming." Nah, that's bull****. She was loved by fans for being a good person. No one saw it coming because she always killed bad people or did what she did for the better of everyone. Her saying she'll take cities with fire and blood was led to make us believe she would kill bad people on her way to the top. Never was it hinted she would kill innocent people. Never.



Over 7 seasons, we should have seen her battle with the concept of love or fear. She should be asking herself if she wants to be someone that's feared or someone that is loved. But all she said was that she wanted to be loved.


Little things like that would make her turn more believable.




And with that I'm done with Dany. If you can't see those things then that's on you. I can't help you or anyone any further.

Please for the love of God, don't watch the last episode!

[Hiro1]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

Lol Dany having build up to being a mad queen and being rushed to that point are not mutually exclusive. It can and I believe it is both. It’s def reasonable to say the writers crept her from 1-40 in 7 seasons. Then in 2 episodes shot her from 40-100.

[TMagic]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

CMH I think that is just how YOU want your stories laid out. There's nothing wrong with that. But just because they didn't do it like you would have liked doesn't mean it's wrong either.

You keep speaking in absolutes and saying such and such things "never" happened which simply arent true. They're just not enough for you it seems.

No one is saying we didn't like Dany or believe in her. Or knew this was coming all along. It's in RETROSPECT that we add it all up and say "****...it makes sense looking back now"

Theres more than one way to write a story or character. Have you never watched a movie where in the end something happens or is revealed shocking? Then you are shown a quick rundown of little nuggets that were dropped the entire movie all the way til the end. And you're like "Damn! It was right in front of me the whole time". That's what this is.

Hell you mentioned WWE. But again you speak in absolutes. Not EVERY turn goes that way. Some are more subtle. Some are painfully obvious. And some are completely outta nowhere, where the character comes out the next show to explain.

Here, they wanted us to like her. They made us root for her. There is no denying that. And she wasn't pretending either. She really wanted to do some good. But along the way she was displaying that merciless side of her. The characters themselves could see it. Just watch Tyrion and his interactions with her since he started advising her. The actors do a hell of a job just telling stories through their expressions alone in this show. Whether you want to believe it or not, **** has definitely been building up to this.

Just compare John to Dany. John has been a good ol boy through and through. He's never wanted to be a leader. She only cares about being queen. He killed the wildling king so he wouldn't burn to death (mercy). She sets people on fire (like literally from season one lol). His "father" was unquestionably good. Her father unquestionably evil. He bent the knee to save people. She WOULD NEVER do the same (as was pointed out by a character in the show). It would be out of right field for John Snow to do what she did the way hes been presented. Not Dany.

As I said, I think you just like your show presented a different way. You wanted it to be more obvious. And they took a different approach. Nothing is wrong with either direction.

[CMH]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

Yeah but quick turns are not effective.


If you feel it was effective for you, then I'm glad it worked for you. It didn't work for me.




Everyone else ignoring the other holes in the characters though. I wonder why. Don't defend GoT. It's bad now.