Graphics and consoles

[NEOPARADIGM]

Re: Graphics and consoles

If you had to spend $200-400 a year to "maintain" the PS3 or 360, they'd probably have better graphics, yeah.

The whole point, to me anyway, of consoles is that they give similar performance as a high-end gaming PC for much less money. They were never intended to be as good or better than PCs.

[Phobia]

Re: Graphics and consoles

Exactly, I think I've said the same thing in some other thread. AI is what needs the most improvement, but it's a tough road to climb...Graphics are easier to understand and implement, AI is more theoretical and tougher to get right.

What really boggles my mind is how movies such as Monsters INC, ICE AGE, Finial Fantasy movie, etc the animations in those movies are AMAZING.

Why can't we get animations on the same level??? I think it makes the whole "graphics" improvements null and void if the characters move like a block of wood.

[Blzer]

Re: Graphics and consoles

What really boggles my mind is how movies such as Monsters INC, ICE AGE, Finial Fantasy movie, etc the animations in those movies are AMAZING.

Why can't we get animations on the same level??? I think it makes the whole "graphics" improvements null and void if the characters move like a block of wood.

I'm not sure that film animation and video game animation can be compared on the same level. I think they're made in completely different environments. Games are built on a basis of logic, films are simply frames (physics are involved, but there's not much beyond that).

But you're right, Pixar really excels at what they do (they didn't do Ice Age or Final Fantasy though).

[mgoblue]

Re: Graphics and consoles

What really boggles my mind is how movies such as Monsters INC, ICE AGE, Finial Fantasy movie, etc the animations in those movies are AMAZING.

Why can't we get animations on the same level??? I think it makes the whole "graphics" improvements null and void if the characters move like a block of wood.

Then we get into the dynamic vs. scripted aspect...

In a football game, do you want the tackle to be some epic scripted animation like a movie, or should it happen dynamically based on the physics?

I think devs are still working out the old animation based system vs. new physics engines and whatnot. They can both exist in harmony, they just have to figure out the best ways to do so.

I also tend to think that the Pixar and Dreamworks CG movies need a bit more processing to handle all the physics and graphics, I dunno if current consoles can do all that on the fly or not (since the movies aren't on the fly and can take as long as they need to render, games aren't afforded that luxury).

Great topic though, and one I don't think a lot of gamers really think about (improvement of AI, physics, etc)...it tends to be more on graphics.

[CaptainZombie]

Re: Graphics and consoles

I am ok with the graphics this generation. I want the developers now to work on gameplay and allowing large amounts of effects on screen at once + some more intelligent A.I. Gaming really needs to start heading in this direction imo. All the best graphics in the world do not make a difference if the game is not fun or is tedious to play. I think a game like KillZone 2 is a perfect example of how the cores of the PS3 is used to allow for multiple effects without bringing down the whole framerate of the system.

[jmood88]

Re: Graphics and consoles

What really boggles my mind is how movies such as Monsters INC, ICE AGE, Finial Fantasy movie, etc the animations in those movies are AMAZING.

Why can't we get animations on the same level??? I think it makes the whole "graphics" improvements null and void if the characters move like a block of wood.

I don't understand what's going on with the animations. Games like The Darkness and Heavenly Sword show that it's possible to have animations on par with movies but for whatever reason there aren't too many companies that focus on animations. Starbreeze and Ninja Theory aren't big developers either so I don't know why the companies with more money/staff can't do great animations.

[jmood88]

Re: Graphics and consoles

I am ok with the graphics this generation. I want the developers now to work on gameplay and allowing large amounts of effects on screen at once + some more intelligent A.I. Gaming really needs to start heading in this direction imo. All the best graphics in the world do not make a difference if the game is not fun or is tedious to play. I think a game like KillZone 2 is a perfect example of how the cores of the PS3 is used to allow for multiple effects without bringing down the whole framerate of the system.

AI really needs to be addressed. For the most part we're still playing prettier versions of xbox and ps2 games.

[Phobia]

Re: Graphics and consoles

AI really needs to be addressed. For the most part we're still playing prettier versions of xbox and ps2 games.

yea Mood that is what I was saying earlier. We have made massive jumps in graphics from Xbox to Xbox 360. But in reality we are playing the same AI logic (for the most part) just with better graphics.

In all honesty I can stay on just the 360/PS3 for another 5 years. I think they could do alot more with the system. I would not care if the graphics stay around the same but instead we see leaps and bounds done to CPU AI. This is what the gaming industry needs to start working on now.

I mean I think I have seen enough tech demos showing off water tech to make it look more realistic. I would much rather see tech demos showing AI improvements.

Neat video
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[Phobia]

Re: Graphics and consoles

Peter Molyneux quote

Peter Molyneux began by discussing the current state of AI within games. He stated that there is very little AI in the games industry and described the current perception within the industry and amongst consumers as effectively being comprised of four elements:

• Navigation
• Avoidance
• Crude Simulations
• Scripted behaviours

While this has been sufficient for game A.I. for now, the next generation of games will have a whole new set of requirements. Peter gave a short list breaking these areas down:

• Agent A.I. - The need to create convincing characters. Rather than simple state-driven agents based on simple requirements and reacting on events, more engaging, believable characters need to be created.
• Cloning A.I. - The need for player mimicking. Peter gave the example of your Xbox live profile being able to learn from the way you play, being able to realistically replace you online while you take a break.
• Learning A.I. - Needed to adapt to player interactions. Nowadays its too easy to learn the patterns and responses of an agent or world. Learning A.I. would allow the game to surprise the player and maintain the suspension of disbelief as the systems remains invisible.
• Balancing A.I. - A great point here, as he discussed the need for a game’s difficulty to adapt to the player, and the impossible task of balancing a game to appropriate challenge for all players. A self-balancing game would continually adjust based on player performance to prevent those shelving-moments in games while preventing boredom. He suggested that this was the reasoin why games have not yet become mass market.

Peter stated that advances in A.I. would fundamentally change the way that games are designed, and allow the creation of entirely new types of games. Advances will also allow players to have entirely unique experiences as each time you play a given scenario it will evolve differently, and will allow far richer, more realistic worlds to be created as more and more elements react more believably

[jmood88]

Re: Graphics and consoles

I hope all of that happens.

[goh]

Re: Graphics and consoles

I don't think the consoles are the problem with graphics,it's the art design. Most games are turning out to be bland wastelands out in space full of brown/yellow or black/grey or some combo of the 4 and if not then they're in New York. It's so lifeless most of the time and there's a severe lack of creativity.

Balancing AI has been done and it doesn't work. You either feel cheated when you do well and still not win or get rewarded for sucking. I remember playing ATV Off-Road Fury,setting a track record by a bunch and still finishing 6th,re-try,intentionally crash 5 times at the start and I win. That's just backwards and frustrating. Learning AI sounds like nearly the same thing. Cloning AI is already in the 2K sports games isn't it? Fire Pro has programmable AI too.

[jmood88]

Re: Graphics and consoles

I don't think the consoles are the problem with graphics,it's the art design. Most games are turning out to be bland wastelands out in space full of brown/yellow or black/grey or some combo of the 4 and if not then they're in New York. It's so lifeless most of the time and there's a severe lack of creativity.

Balancing AI has been done and it doesn't work. You either feel cheated when you do well and still not win or get rewarded for sucking. I remember playing ATV Off-Road Fury,setting a track record by a bunch and still finishing 6th,re-try,intentionally crash 5 times at the start and I win. That's just backwards and frustrating. Learning AI sounds like nearly the same thing. Cloning AI is already in the 2K sports games isn't it? Fire Pro has programmable AI too.

If you're taking advantage of the system that's your problem, not the technique. There's nothing wrong with lowering or raising the difficulty if someone is having an easier/harder time with something and I would prefer that system over just picking from 4 difficulty settings with no way of knowing how hard or easy each one is without going through the game.

[Altimus]

Re: Graphics and consoles

AI really needs to be addressed. For the most part we're still playing prettier versions of xbox and ps2 games.

From reading, AI is the hardest thing to implement because of the processing power it takes. I'm sure this is something we won't see till next generation.

[choadler]

Re: Graphics and consoles

I will just say this. There is a noticeable difference when I played Bioshock on the PC and Bioshock on the 360. The PC looked much crisper graphically. Although, in no way am I complaining about the graphics on the 360 or PS3. If I could find consistently good games, like Bioshock, I would be very happy.

[goh]

Re: Graphics and consoles

But there IS something wrong with it,that's the point,you don't get rewarded for doing well. You get punished/cheated for doing well and rewarded for sucking. Should the Memphis Grizzlies get championship rings and the Lakers get nothing but a pay raise?