Graphics and consoles

[jmood88]

Re: Graphics and consoles

But there IS something wrong with it,that's the point,you don't get rewarded for doing well. You get punished/cheated for doing well and rewarded for sucking. Should the Memphis Grizzlies get championship rings and the Lakers get nothing but a pay raise?

That's a horrible example. If someone is doing bad then the game should adapt, unless you are a fan of being frustrated and in that case you just start over. You intentionally set out to game the system and then complain when it does what it's designed to do. No one wants to spend money on something that is impenetrable, which is why there are different difficulty levels in the first place. If people are paying for the game there should be some way for them to get through it. Raising the difficulty for a person doing better isn't punishing them, it's acknowledging that they are better at the game and giving them more of a challenge and if they start doing bad at the higher difficulty then it changes. I don't see any possible way that that could be a bad thing.

[Phobia]

Re: Graphics and consoles

That's a horrible example. If someone is doing bad then the game should adapt, unless you are a fan of being frustrated and in that case you just start over. You intentionally set out to game the system and then complain when it does what it's designed to do. No one wants to spend money on something that is impenetrable, which is why there are different difficulty levels in the first place. If people are paying for the game there should be some way for them to get through it. Raising the difficulty for a person doing better isn't punishing them, it's acknowledging that they are better at the game and giving them more of a challenge and if they start doing bad at the higher difficulty then it changes. I don't see any possible way that that could be a bad thing.

I completely agree. I know I have entered games that I got to the point of being "annoyed' is a good choice of words and ended up shelving it. Even though I love the game and enjoy the concept, the difficulty turns me off.

For instance I just got Too Human, I wanted a decent dungeon crawler type. What I did not know was the health system and reload system is frustrating. First health is rare which means you will die alot. Next, when you die you HAVE to watch the cut scene, can't skip it. Talk about a major deterrent. I get to the point of wanting to stop cause I am tired of just waiting 5 mins for it to reload.

We play these games to "enjoy" ourselves. We don't want to go through them because we want to fail. We want to enjoy the ride the whole way. Gears of war 2 is a good example of it being "fair" and one hell of a ride.

That is just how I view gaming and I find that kind of balance AI can only do good things.

[bkfount]

Re: Graphics and consoles

I'm still consistently blown away by how great the games look. Fight Night R4 is the most recent game I bought and I think it looks amazing.

We're 4 years into the life of the 360 and I'm still impressed. I don't think graphics are holding anything back right now. I'd like to see some improvements in gameplay.

great developers will always figure out better techniques to squeeze something extra out of the consoles. I didn't expect to see great looking games like Black and God of War near the final years of the ps2's life. At the time, I was stunned that GTA San Andreas was able to be played without any loading while driving around.

[goh]

Re: Graphics and consoles

Yes that is what difficulty levels are for and we should have them and yes people should be able to get through games. I believe every game should have cheats actually for those that can't finish it (ones that save too,none of this you don't get to save crap some devs pull).

Not this:

Racing game for example...

I beat the course record by 10 seconds but because of the adapative AI that decided to catch up to me I actually finish 6th. That's frustrating.

I hand the game over to someone else. They crash 5 times on the first lap,are 50 seconds over the record and they finish 1st because the AI slowed down for them.

I go again,beat the last record by 5 seconds but finish 4th because yet again I get cheated and randomly passed at the last second. Frustrating yet again.

Someone else crashes 2 times per lap,1:15 over the record and finishes 1st.

Fighting game...

Knowing all the combos and special moves results in AI cheapness making the game frustrating.

Someone that stands there just pushing kick the whole game wins.

RPG...

I spend 40 hours leveling up my characters to 99,the AI levels up with me thus making it useless.

Someone doesn't do anything extra and breezes right though the game.

You can't see the problems there?

[jmood88]

Re: Graphics and consoles

Yes that is what difficulty levels are for and we should have them and yes people should be able to get through games. I believe every game should have cheats actually for those that can't finish it (ones that save too,none of this you don't get to save crap some devs pull).

Not this:

Racing game for example...

I beat the course record by 10 seconds but because of the adapative AI that decided to catch up to me I actually finish 6th. That's frustrating.

I hand the game over to someone else. They crash 5 times on the first lap,are 50 seconds over the record and they finish 1st because the AI slowed down for them.

I go again,beat the last record by 5 seconds but finish 4th because yet again I get cheated and randomly passed at the last second. Frustrating yet again.

Someone else crashes 2 times per lap,1:15 over the record and finishes 1st.

Fighting game...

Knowing all the combos and special moves results in AI cheapness making the game frustrating.

Someone that stands there just pushing kick the whole game wins.

RPG...

I spend 40 hours leveling up my characters to 99,the AI levels up with me thus making it useless.

Someone doesn't do anything extra and breezes right though the game.

You can't see the problems there?

The closest thing to what Peter Molyneaux was talking about is the RPG example and that's not that big of a deal, it's just a different philosophy by the developer. The person not levelling up isn't going to breeze through the game, they'll have the same challenge as the person who levelled their character up since the enemies will be at whatever level they decide to stop at.

[pfunk880]

Re: Graphics and consoles

Yes that is what difficulty levels are for and we should have them and yes people should be able to get through games. I believe every game should have cheats actually for those that can't finish it (ones that save too,none of this you don't get to save crap some devs pull).

Not this:

Racing game for example...

I beat the course record by 10 seconds but because of the adapative AI that decided to catch up to me I actually finish 6th. That's frustrating.

I hand the game over to someone else. They crash 5 times on the first lap,are 50 seconds over the record and they finish 1st because the AI slowed down for them.

I go again,beat the last record by 5 seconds but finish 4th because yet again I get cheated and randomly passed at the last second. Frustrating yet again.

Someone else crashes 2 times per lap,1:15 over the record and finishes 1st.

Fighting game...

Knowing all the combos and special moves results in AI cheapness making the game frustrating.

Someone that stands there just pushing kick the whole game wins.

RPG...

I spend 40 hours leveling up my characters to 99,the AI levels up with me thus making it useless.

Someone doesn't do anything extra and breezes right though the game.

You can't see the problems there?

Maybe you need to try different games? I've never run across any of these problems too significantly in the games I play.

[goh]

Re: Graphics and consoles

Those were just examples of why it would be bad. Well as I said the racing one actually happend in the first ATV Off Road Fury and I believe Oblivion had the leveling deal but I didn't play that much since I didn't like it.

[Admiral50]

Re: Graphics and consoles

More than happy with the power of the consoles, in terms of graphics.

They are pretty much good enough for any type of game now, it's the gameplay and original features that need a boost.

[choadler]

Re: Graphics and consoles

More than happy with the power of the consoles, in terms of graphics.

They are pretty much good enough for any type of game now, it's the gameplay and original features that need a boost.

Exactly...

Too much obsession over graphics. Good gameplay and originality wins out.

[jmood88]

Re: Graphics and consoles

It's funny that the guy who posted this just made the thread and ran away.

[Chizzypoof]

Re: Graphics and consoles

Graphics in general are going to like you said "plateau" a bit. Reason being is graphics are improving at a slower rate.

What we will see increasing is this that require tons of processing power. Like Physics, Animations, and AI.

I wanna see a jump from PS1 to 360 type proportions in AI behavior. I think this is the biggest problem games have faced this gen. While graphics have improved 10x, the AI has remained mostly the same.

I think this is the way it will go also. The graphical leaps are beginning to slow down now, as it seems the 360, PC and PS3 are very similar. Of course with the edge to the PC. Better AI, physics and story telling is where the development needs to go.

The next step up in graphics would be photo realism. I honestly don't really want to see photo realistic graphics on my games, with maybe the exception of sports titles. I like the disconnect from reality that playing a game has.

Take a look at Beowulf the movie. The artist put a lot of effort making the movie characters look like their real life counter parts. It got to the point for me, that when I watched the movie, I thought, why not just let the actors go onscreen. Why spend millions animating the actors to look like the actors? The CG, as good as it was, didn't help me like the movie any better. The story wasn't the greatest and because they tried to make it look so close to reality, every time the animation didn't look quite human, my brain immediately picked up on the flaws.

And goh:

I see your points with difficulty levels but that RPG example that you talked about; It's usually the designers that implement that feature into the game. I level grind in every RPG, so I also hate when enemies level with you. It makes level grinding and searching for rare weapons close to useless. But that was the games designers choice, not directly effected by the AI being bad.

[ProjectRipCity]

Re: Graphics and consoles

I agree I think gameplay should play more of a role. Maybe that's why graphics seem so dim to me because I am like "Eh, whatever" with the gameplay.

The reason why I started this thread is because my friend has this beast of a computer. I had Left 4 Dead on my console and he had it for the PC. I put in a good 20 hours of play on Left 4 Dead. When I went to his house we were just hanging out. All of a sudden he was like wanna watch me play left 4 dead? And I was like "I already have that game cant be much different" Well I was completely wrong. Keep in mind I am running on 720P on my console. He has this crappy old monitor (Dont ask me why) and the graphics not only looked better...The game was running way faster (more FPS) to me it was like night and day.
Something else I noticed was I was standing him watching him play, and we had to take turns. Unlike the 360 I found myself watching instead of doing. So in no way am I trying to insult consoles. IMO if you play solo I would definitely run with a PC. If you are hanging out with friends a 360 or PS3 is gonna work way better and it's much more enjoyable at parties.

There are distinct pros and cons to consoles and PC's

Consoles
- Friends can play
- Role playing games are more easily controlled
- Easier updates for games

PC's
- Graphics are updated almost everyday
- The addons are limitless and free (Unless it's an expansion pack)
- Plays the best with shooters without question

[Chizzypoof]

Re: Graphics and consoles

There are distinct pros and cons to consoles and PC's

Consoles
- Friends can play
- Role playing games are more easily controlled
- Easier updates for games

PC's
- Graphics are updated almost everyday
- The addons are limitless and free (Unless it's an expansion pack)
- Plays the best with shooters without question

Don't forget:

Consoles
- cost around $500 and has an average life span of 5 years.

PC's
- Graphics Card alone cost around $500 and has an average life span (before being outdated) of about a year.

I used to be a PC gamer. The graphics were just that much better compared to the PS2 and I wanted the best. But the cost just got too much. The PC I am typing on, I built in '05. New MB and everything from the ground up. It was outdated in a year, when PCIexpress came out. There was no way I was building another one. The other thing I love about Consoles is there is no need to worry about your configuration and min requirements. Pop it in and it plays. PC's are gorgeous to play on, if you can keep up, but it is a very expensive hobby.

[pfunk880]

Re: Graphics and consoles

Don't forget:

Consoles
- cost around $500 and has an average life span of 5 years.

PC's
- Graphics Card alone cost around $500 and has an average life span (before being outdated) of about a year.

I used to be a PC gamer. The graphics were just that much better compared to the PS2 and I wanted the best. But the cost just got too much. The PC I am typing on, I built in '05. New MB and everything from the ground up. It was outdated in a year, when PCIexpress came out. There was no way I was building another one. The other thing I love about Consoles is there is no need to worry about your configuration and min requirements. Pop it in and it plays. PC's are gorgeous to play on, if you can keep up, but it is a very expensive hobby.

That pretty much sums it up for me. I used to dabble in PC gaming, but now I'm strictly console because I can just pop the disc in and know for sure that the game will work.

[tanis38]

Re: Graphics and consoles

I think there is still room for graphics to improve this generation. It is all a matter of a developer becoming familiar with the architecture of the consoles. But make no mistake, there are a ton of great looking games currently out and plenty more coming. I don't want a new system anytime soon.

But like others have mentioned, I would want developers to really try to use this processing power in other areas besides just geometry, textures and lighting. I really think we can greatly improve animation and especialy A.I. in games. This requires a ton of processing power, but I think the capability of the systems is there, the developers just have to make a conscience decision to concentrate in these areas.