Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

[sqeg]

I would also agree that when it comes down to whining about a player's sock color, jersey color, or even god forid he doesn't wear an left armband & he clearly does in real life. That's definately just knitpicking & whining, especially when pretty much every game today allows you to edit stuff like that on your own, well except for uniforms & there's reasons for that.

I for one, have never played NFL 2k5, so I probably consider myself lucky as I don't have another series to compare Madden to, I've been a loyal customer of the Madden series way back since it's first release on Sega Genesis. The only football game I have ever played to compare a Madden game to is the previous year's Madden. I can honestly say that I've always been pleased w/the improvements year to year w/Madden, until we arrived at the next-gen era. I've seen improvements/tweeks/etc to gameplay go by the wayside & more attention to looks(graphically but not presentation wise which is sad) & gimmicks. I mean look at last year's release... do we really need the game to tell us who our weapons are & what area specifically are good in? If you have any knowledge of the NFL my guess would be no. Yes, I know you can turn this feature off but, it was touted as one of the "big new features in Madden '08" I mean... c'mon get real... all this for a gimmick? Not to mention it seriously screwed with any in-game balance the game had.

If you put aside all the knitpicking about colors of jerseys, a player's armband's, a player's facial hair etc, gamers have real legit issues with some of the sports games today. I know you can't please all of the people all of the time but, you can please some of the people, all the time. And the reality is, this just isn't happening.

Some of you may have given up on the "sim" aspect of the game or some aspect of the game that you feel they haven't live up to expectations & feel they never will. But there are others who crave that & are waiting for something that "feels" real but haven't gotten anything close. Shouldn't they strive to at least give us that option? It was the Madden series that started the ball rolling by giving us this "sim" feel w/franchise mode in '97, especially with EA Sports giving us their catch phrase "If it's in the game, It's in the game!", whatever happened to that? Just remember when it all boils down to it, everyone has their own definition of what they consider "fun" & there is no right or wrong.

Props on a good, thought provoking article, I know it made me think about how I critique a game. I just tend to think most of the scrutiny/criticism is justified tho but, that's just me.

[countryboy]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

I know you can't please all of the people all of the time but, you can please some of the people, all the time. And the reality is, this just isn't happening.

good post speg, but I disagree with the statement above. Developers are pleasing some of the people all the time. Now it may not be you and I who are sim heads, but they are definitely pleasing people all the time. And in more cases than not, its the casual/online gamer.

Again, very good post.

[davin]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

I think they deserve too much criticism given the circumstances. One year, really a couple months isn't enough to fix everything. There will be no perfect football game, because there are just too many variables and too many things to go wrong. I like realism, I edit my rosters of NCAA as much as I can, if they have a guy at the wrong position (for example, incoming freshman Mike Brewster for OSU), I will move him. If they have the wrong number, I will fix it if I can. I try to play the game realistically, but I catch myself scrapping the run every now and then and throwing 50 times a game (often out of sheer frustration, "run it until you get it right"). I get NCAA every year, I love the game and the excitement that comes with it. I don't expect perfection, really I just like to be entertained and if it plays realistically that is great. I remember a year or two ago playing Madden 99 on the n64 with a friend, in that game: the ball was thrown through 3 defenders, players went through eachother, the ball's release was crazy (rotation and then rocket launcher) among other things. Interceptions happened when the ball would warp through the helmet of your WR. But do you know what, that was the version of Madden I enjoyed most, my friends and I would all play on the same team, all four controllers. It didn't matter the game had its amazingly unrealistic moments, we enjoyed it anyways.

When NCAA 2009 comes out, there will be something wrong with it. The WVU mascot already scares the hell out of me. I'm sure some gameplay flaw will come out, and I will complain. But I will play on despite that because I love college football and think it is still a pretty good game. I know I am not their target customer, and I accept the game for what it is and try to enjoy it.

[countryboy]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

I think they deserve too much criticism given the circumstances. One year, really a couple months isn't enough to fix everything. There will be no perfect football game, because there are just too many variables and too many things to go wrong. I like realism, I edit my rosters of NCAA as much as I can, if they have a guy at the wrong position (for example, incoming freshman Mike Brewster for OSU), I will move him. If they have the wrong number, I will fix it if I can. I try to play the game realistically, but I catch myself scrapping the run every now and then and throwing 50 times a game (often out of sheer frustration, "run it until you get it right"). I get NCAA every year, I love the game and the excitement that comes with it. I don't expect perfection, really I just like to be entertained and if it plays realistically that is great. I remember a year or two ago playing Madden 99 on the n64 with a friend, in that game: the ball was thrown through 3 defenders, players went through eachother, the ball's release was crazy (rotation and then rocket launcher) among other things. Interceptions happened when the ball would warp through the helmet of your WR. But do you know what, that was the version of Madden I enjoyed most, my friends and I would all play on the same team, all four controllers. It didn't matter the game had its amazingly unrealistic moments, we enjoyed it anyways.

When NCAA 2009 comes out, there will be something wrong with it. The WVU mascot already scares the hell out of me. I'm sure some gameplay flaw will come out, and I will complain. But I will play on despite that because I love college football and think it is still a pretty good game. I know I am not their target customer, and I accept the game for what it is and try to enjoy it.

Terrific post

[countryboy]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

I would like to say something. I would like to thank everyone for keeping it civil. I was afraid before I posted that it would turn into a flame war about one game or another, but thus far(though only 34 posts in) its remained civil and I appreciate that.

Again, this thread wasn't started to defend sports games, nor to completely rip them apart. It was started to discuss the criticism of sports game and to get people's opinions and points of views, and I am glad that is what its doing.

A lot of good information, points, and discussion going on in this thread. Keep the point of views coming.

[DrJones]

Re: Do sports games receive too much criticism?

No. They are releasing a game every year. That's really probably less than six months of hard-coding. It isn't really enough to differentiate year from year, and while that's all good and dandy and we should accept that, first press-releases create totally unnecessary hype every time in and out. Does it suck me in? Of course. But this is where they should be criticized... where they don't deliver. Then the team gives excuses about not enough time to add something in, and I say that is bull. They should have a few guys secretly working on some hitting code, pitching code, franchise code... whatever, in some hidden file that takes four years to complete. But they don't do anything long-term like that. Everything is year-in, year-out kind of material.

I can't wait until we see some sports games go every other year. Saves us cash, lets us play a little more of our franchise mode, and they can get more quality long-term stuff in there that they're planning on doing for a game.

A couple things:

1. You realize the people who make the press releases are often disconnected from the people who make the game, right? They like to make promises that developers have difficulty keeping.

2. When dev teams say "they didn't have enough time", sometimes they're telling the truth, sometimes not. But you can't publicly say stuff like, "This key programmer/designer/manager sucks, but he's untouchable because he's friends with important people in the company" or "20 people quit midway through the project to start their own company" or "execs decided to cut our budget in half to make the bean counters happy", now can you?

3. I'm not sure what you mean by programmers "secretly working on code". Secret from who, their managers?

4. All game devs want the two-year cycle, so they can a.) make better games, and b.) spend less time at work. This will become a reality when execs collectively decide that they can make more money this way, rather than releasing a new game every year. In other words, never.

[countryboy]

Re: Do sports games receive too much criticism?

A couple things:

1. You realize the people who make the press releases are often disconnected from the people who make the game, right? They like to make promises that developers have difficulty keeping.

2. When dev teams say "they didn't have enough time", sometimes they're telling the truth, sometimes not. But you can't publicly say stuff like, "This key programmer/designer/manager sucks, but he's untouchable because he's friends with important people in the company" or "20 people quit midway through the project to start their own company" or "execs decided to cut our budget in half to make the bean counters happy", now can you?

3. I'm not sure what you mean by programmers "secretly working on code". Secret from who, their managers?

4. All game devs want the two-year cycle, so they can a.) make better games, and b.) spend less time at work. This will become a reality when execs collectively decide that they can make more money this way, rather than releasing a new game every year. In other words, never.

I was hoping somehow, someway, you'd find your way to the thread. I was curious as to how you would respond.

[ehh]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

Of course they get too much criticism and I'm as guilty of it as anyone. Bottom line is that it's a videogame intended for entertainment purposes. If you don't like it or it doesn't live up to your standards then don't play it.

Of course none of us on OS do that, we sit here and bitch and moan and come up with 700 page wish lists where we're lucky if five items get included in next year's game.

We want perfection and everything imaginable in every game but 99% of us have no idea what goes into creating a video game and/or adding those features that we, "cannot understand how that wasn't included!"

[Pared]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

Of course none of us on OS do that, we sit here and bitch and moan and come up with 700 page wish lists where we're lucky if five items get included in next year's game.

We want perfection and everything imaginable in every game but 99% of us have no idea what goes into creating a video game and/or adding those features that we, "cannot understand how that wasn't included!"

This should stickied on the top of every board during a major game release.

[Cebby]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

We want perfection and everything imaginable in every game but 99% of us have no idea what goes into creating a video game and/or adding those features that we, "cannot understand how that wasn't included!"

Sometimes that's the case. Other times, such as NCAA 08, the passing was screwed up so bad that single player mode was virtually unplayable. I don't really buy the lack of time or resources. It's not a coincidence that in the 2 biggest years of competition between EA and VC (2004 and 2005 lines of Madden and NCAA), we saw more improvements than in the 06, 07, 08, and 09 versions of the games combined, nor is it coincidence that the ratings for 2k's baseball series have dropped solidly since 2k5.

The bigger thing for me is the complete lack of options. Of the 5 biggest sports, only professional basketball will have more than one choice in 2008. NFL, NCAA football and basketball, and MLB (on the 360) will only have one game each. If those suck, there's no alternative. Last year, when Halo 3 was a huge disappointment, we could still say "**** it, I'm going to play CoD4/Bioshock/Mass Effect/Half Life 2."

[DrJones]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

I don't really buy the lack of time or resources. It's not a coincidence that in the 2 biggest years of competition between EA and VC (2004 and 2005 lines of Madden and NCAA), we saw more improvements than in the 06, 07, 08, and 09 versions of the games combined, nor is it coincidence that the ratings for 2k's baseball series have dropped solidly since 2k5.

Wait, doesn't this PROVE that lack of time or resources is legit? When EA started getting their butts kicked by 2K in the early 2000's, they poured money into dev teams to improve the quality. When a dev team at EA or 2K says "we didn't have enough resources", they don't mean that the company itself doesn't have the money, but that the money was being shifted elsewhere.

[mgoblue]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

Wait, doesn't this PROVE that lack of time or resources is legit? When EA started getting their butts kicked by 2K in the early 2000's, they poured money into dev teams to improve the quality. When a dev team at EA or 2K says "we didn't have enough resources", they don't mean that the company itself doesn't have the money, but that the money was being shifted elsewhere.

Yeah, you can't just say "add 50 people to a dev team"...do people realize how expensive that would be at the cost of qualified people these days? That would seriously jack up the cost of a game....

[muggins]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

I don't think they receive too much crictism, especially here at OS. If a game has game-killing bugs, I want to know about it. $60 is too much to just 'settle' for a game.

How long have people been asking for certain features in certain games? Then they go and put in totally off the wall things that no one would ever want? How could they let such awful bugs get through - did they even playtest it?

You'll also notice that a game that has good on the field play with only a few issues and a great legacy mode will always get good marks here. CH2k8, NFL2k5, NCAA on the Xbox1, MLB Show etc.

[bkfount]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

These games cost 60 dollars, each year. They come out with 6 month development cycles, and cost the same as games that have been in development for years. I see nothing wrong with people being hard on these games.

It's obvious to anyone that has been in gaming for awhile, that these games have been slacking off more and more. We're no longer in the age of competition driven improvements in this genre of games. No more trying to push hard to one up your opponent year after year.

[grunt]

Re: Do Sports Games Receive Too Much Criticism?

I'm not totally convinced some sports gamers actually want to enjoy a game. I swear, with bitching and whining about sock colors, jerseys, every little thing...then tweaking the "eye blink" slider so the players blink correctly, I think some people just love nitpicking, whining, and just bitching about the current year's release.

I 100% believe that there are way more guys than any of you think who would see a theoretical "perfect" Madden release and go "It's not NFL 2k5, it sucks".

Personally I've stopped striving for the "sim" aspect a lot of guys go for, because after a while it stops making a game fun. I'm not a NFL level coach, I shouldn't have to watch hours of tape in order to understand defenses in Madden. I just want to have fun in games, I want them to be realistic, but I think sports gamers are overly sensitive to realism. Seriously, people don't bitch about Sonic's sock colors.

I know I'm in the drastic minority here, but it's just how I feel based on what I see here every year. No game will be perfect or even near perfect to guys here because they'll find some little issue and blow it way out of proportion.

We bitch because developers read these boards. We want a better game. I am always going to strive for a sim game because there are tons of arcade sport games that been released.

Peace