Now this is some BS!

[Chaos81]

Re: Now this is some BS!

Right now, it's been proven that illegal drugs are easier for kids to obtain than alcohol.

It has? Where?

[Bahnzo]

Re: Now this is some BS!

It has? Where?

HERE and HERE and HERE.

[Bahnzo]

Re: Now this is some BS!

The idea that it's easier for kids to get drugs than alcohol is 100% foolishness. The concept is laughably ridiculous.

I don't even know how that even sounded right in your head.

I didn't make the distinction that you are. But yes, they are easier for kids to obtain that alcohol. Maybe not in the ideal little hamlet that you live in, but in most metropolitan areas, they are. And even from personal experience, I know that back in the 80's when I went to high school, Marijuana and coke were both readily available at school. I didn't use it, but I would have had no problem getting either before the day was out. And I went to a small town high school, nothing like an urban area at all.

You see, you *think* that it's difficult, you want to believe that it is, but then you don't really know the truth. You have only your small bit of experience to draw from.

Like I said drug dealers don't ask for ID. Sure it's not like they are as common as supermarkets or the like, but they are only a phone call away. In some cities they even deliver!

[Cebby]

Re: Now this is some BS!

HERE and HERE and HERE.

Pot=/= "illegal drugs"

Weed is an illegal drug, but it's significantly more easy to find than any other drug.

The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that, by the time they complete high school, 47 percent of teenagers have smoked marijuana, 24 percent have used another illicit drug and 81 percent have drunk alcohol. The agency also estimates that 70 percent have smoked cigarettes.

That paragraph alone pretty much kills your argument.

[Bahnzo]

Re: Now this is some BS!

If you take away the negative stigma, the cost, the difficulty of acquiring, and the fact that you no longer have to worry about police arresting you and the much hyped "get raped by a large black male" factor, and there's absolutely no way drug use will decrease. Add in that you could no longer be fired from work for using drugs, and people would have little incentive to stop using drugs.

Why does the negative stigma have to go away? Since they are legal you are now unable to teach your children they are bad? Alcohol and tobacco are legal, do you teach your children that it's ok to use them? And don't tell me that's different...alcohol and tobacco kill multitudes more people each year than all the illegal drugs combined over the last decade. They are much more harmful.

We shouldn't be placing punishments (such as jobs, arrests, fines, imprisonment) as deterrents to using drugs. If you want to give people incentive to not use, then you need to appeal to their good judgement and not threaten them.

[Bahnzo]

Re: Now this is some BS!

Pot=/= "illegal drugs"

Weed is an illegal drug, but it's significantly more easy to find than any other drug.



That paragraph alone pretty much kills your argument.

I didn't make any distinctions, pot is an illegal drug. Like I said, illegal drugs are easier for kids to obtain than alcohol.

And I don't see how that paragraph you posted proves anything. Use doesn't equal access. Like I said, teenagers state that it's easier to obtain illegal drugs, not that they use them. Again, you're thinking that just because they can, they will.

[Cebby]

Re: Now this is some BS!

Why does the negative stigma have to go away? Since they are legal you are now unable to teach your children they are bad? Alcohol and tobacco are legal, do you teach your children that it's ok to use them? And don't tell me that's different...alcohol and tobacco kill multitudes more people each year than all the illegal drugs combined over the last decade. They are much more harmful.

Again, you're making my point for me. Alcohol and tobacco are currently legal and used far more than any illegal drug, and significantly more than any-non-marijuana drug with the only difference being that those 2 are legal and marijuana is common (and practically decriminalized). It's pretty obvious that legality correlates strongly to usage.

If you think alcohol and tobacco are more harmful than opiates, amphetamines, and cocaine, I don't know what to tell you.

I didn't make any distinctions, pot is an illegal drug. Like I said, illegal drugs are easier for kids to obtain than alcohol.

Marijuana is a single, somewhat illegal drug. Hell, for a teenager, alcohol and tobacco are illegal drugs. Marijuana is much different from every other illegal drug in dependency, damage, and fun.

[Bahnzo]

Re: Now this is some BS!

Again, you're making my point for me. Alcohol and tobacco are currently legal and used far more than any illegal drug, and significantly more than any-non-marijuana drug with the only difference being that those 2 are legal and marijuana is common (and practically decriminalized). It's pretty obvious that legality correlates strongly to usage.

First, marijuana is not "practically decriminalized". It's getting better, but maybe you should try getting caught buying some and see what the arresting officer has to say when you tell him that?

And it's not legality that equates to use, it's social acceptance that does. When you ask people why alcohol and tobacco are legal, they say "it's socially acceptable!" But then they turn around and say, "Oh if you legalize drugs, then people will use them!". Can't have it both ways.

If you think alcohol and tobacco are more harmful than opiates, amphetamines, and cocaine, I don't know what to tell you.

You don't have to tell me anything, prove it to me. Find me *FACTS* that they are more harmful than tobacco and alcohol. Don't just go on your gut instinct and moral compass, but give me medical facts.

But just in case, take a look HERE. Not only do alcohol and tobacco kill multitudes more people each year, adverse reactions to prescription drugs kill almost twice as many people as all illicit drugs each year.

Marijuana is a single, somewhat illegal drug. Hell, for a teenager, alcohol and tobacco are illegal drugs. Marijuana is much different from every other illegal drug in dependency, damage, and fun.

Not according to the DEA. Our government places marijuana on the same level as heroin and PCP. It's not a "somewhat illegal drug", it's as illegal as the rest of them. Your local city or state gov't might have different laws, but in the feds eyes, they are all the same.

Again, and not one of you have addressed this: How is this any different from prohibition back in the 30's? Did that work then? What is it that makes you think that we can make it work now, in a more advanced time?

[HungryBologna]

Re: Now this is some BS!

So what it comes down to is the hypocrite baby-boomers and MONEY. I've got a feeling the tobacco and alcohol companies don't want to see marijuana legalized/taxed.

[Chaos81]

Re: Now this is some BS!

HERE and HERE and HERE.

I guess the Kansas City area is different, because it's MUCH easier to get alcohol around here. I can think of three bars, and one liquor store where a teenager could go in and buy alcohol.


Also, "It has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percent age points". Guess what the difference is between the two?


I can show you a survey that says a higher percentage of kids in the class of 2007 think Alcohol is fairly easy, or very easy to obtain over any of the "illegal drugs". Does that make it true?

[Bahnzo]

Re: Now this is some BS!

I guess the Kansas City area is different, because it's MUCH easier to get alcohol around here. I can think of three bars, and one liquor store where a teenager could go in and buy alcohol.


Also, "It has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percent age points". Guess what the difference is between the two?


I can show you a survey that says a higher percentage of kids in the class of 2007 think Alcohol is fairly easy, or very easy to obtain over any of the "illegal drugs". Does that make it true?

Show me the survey then. The point is, that illegal drugs are a lot easier to obtain than people think they are, especially by kids. You make them legal and regulate them in the same manner we do alcohol and tobacco and you cut the access to them by children. That certainly would work better than whatever safeguards we have in place now....ie: none.

[Cebby]

Re: Now this is some BS!

You don't have to tell me anything, prove it to me. Find me *FACTS* that they are more harmful than tobacco and alcohol. Don't just go on your gut instinct and moral compass, but give me medical facts.

But just in case, take a look HERE. Not only do alcohol and tobacco kill multitudes more people each year, adverse reactions to prescription drugs kill almost twice as many people as all illicit drugs each year.

Alcohol, tobacco, and prescription drugs are also used by many more people each year. In 2005, the US government that reported 310,000 people had used heroin in the last year, 5.9 million cocaine, and 1.3 million had used meth. Assuming that none of those overlap, that's 7.5 million hard drug users. The government reports that 61% of adults report drinking in the last year. That is roughly 133.6 million alcohol users.

The US government doesn't differentiate between legal and illegal drugs, claiming 33,541 deaths from legal drugs, illegal drugs, and adverse reactions to pharmaceuticals. It lists the alcohol deaths at 21,634 for 2005. So, while there's not an official comparison, given the population numbers, for illegal drug mortality rates to be at the same rate as alcohol deaths, there would have to be fewer than 1,214 illegal drug deaths in a year.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_10.pdf

http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs11/13846/heroin.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alcohol.htm

Going by raw numbers to prove harm is a joke. Many more people die of smoking than firearms, but I'm willing to bet that a gun shot is generally more dangerous than smoking a cigarette.

[Chaos81]

Re: Now this is some BS!

Show me the survey then.

http://monitoringthefuture.org/press...r_complete.pdf

Page 45 for 12th graders. 83.9% think pot is very easy or fairly easy to get. 92.2% think alcohol is very easy or fairly easy to get. Take that how you will.

It also has 8th and 10th graders, and you'll find similar results there too. Best part is you can go back to as long as they've been keeping alcohol numbers and this has always been the case.

The point is, that illegal drugs are a lot easier to obtain than people think they are, especially by kids.

And my point is, regardless of what the surveys say, I found alcohol much easier to obtain. I did my fair share of stupid things, and didn't exactly hang out with the goody goody group.

[Bahnzo]

Re: Now this is some BS!

The US government doesn't differentiate between legal and illegal drugs, claiming 33,541 deaths from legal drugs, illegal drugs, and adverse reactions to pharmaceuticals. It lists the alcohol deaths at 21,634 for 2005. So, while there's not an official comparison, given the population numbers, for illegal drug mortality rates to be at the same rate as alcohol deaths, there would have to be fewer than 1,214 illegal drug deaths in a year.

Don't forget I'm talking about tobacco also, not just alcohol, that's about 400,000+ more deaths right there. Plus trying to estimate the actual number of illicit drug users is difficult...not too many people tell the truth when asked about breaking the law.

Also, isn't it convenient that they lump legal and illegal deaths together, even tho they have the death codes to make the distinction? Here's one place that estimates illegal deaths to be only 21% of the total number. And of those 21%, 86% of those were considered "accidental" deaths, ie: overdoses, which are usually a result of poor quality or unknown dosage (which could both be prevented).

So actually the number is much lower than what is reported. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they aren't bad for you, but just people are getting fed a lot of BS when it comes to the actual physical harm done by illegal drugs. Trying to justify the illegal nature of drugs because of the health factor falls flat when you consider legal drugs kill so many more people.

[Bahnzo]

Re: Now this is some BS!

http://monitoringthefuture.org/press...r_complete.pdf

Page 45 for 12th graders. 83.9% think pot is very easy or fairly easy to get. 92.2% think alcohol is very easy or fairly easy to get. Take that how you will.

It also has 8th and 10th graders, and you'll find similar results there too. Best part is you can go back to as long as they've been keeping alcohol numbers and this has always been the case.


And my point is, regardless of what the surveys say, I found alcohol much easier to obtain. I did my fair share of stupid things, and didn't exactly hang out with the goody goody group.

Still, that's pretty close. Stats will vary from study to study however. And as I've said, drug dealers don't require ID.

Edit: also, I should point out...while reading the MtF study, you have to pay attention to the wording of the questions...It says "How difficult is _____ to get". Not purchase. Most teens have access to alcohol at home and the wording could be skewing the results somewhat. The link I posted specifically uses the word "buy" in it's relation to how it's obtained.