Is the traditional family dead?

[Cebby]

Re: Is the traditional family dead?

Are you kidding? It's quite arguable - what society are you living in? Look at the definition of "moral":

1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical; capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct:

And in what universe is a society that had legal discrimination "conforming to the rules of right conduct"?

50-60 years ago in America there were Jim Crow laws, lynching, females and non-whites banned from schools, wife and child abuse on a regular basis, and mass corruption in all levels of government.

Outside of America you had massive genocides, enslavement, and communism.

But the divorce rate was lower.

If today's soceity is actually better then the crime rate wouldn't be higher

The higher crime rate is mostly due to the ease of importing and creating drugs.

What's right will always turn up right and what's wrong will always turn up wrong.

And much of daily life from your perceived glory day turned out to be very wrong.

So love in your perspective isn't really a requirement to get married, just a have a hope that it potentially will be there? If so, then that is a direct correlation to that divorce rate.

That isn't my perspective; that was the fact of marriage outside of the developed world over the past century or so.

My point is that your concept of marriages being based off of love has the correlation with the divorce rate. Courtships lasting years and initiated by the husband and wife and not their families are a very new phenomenon and really only in the developed states where divorce rates are rising.

[Speedy]

Re: Is the traditional family dead?

And in what universe is a society that had legal discrimination "conforming to the rules of right conduct"?

It's called the judicial system. Do you even know what their main focus is?

The higher crime rate is mostly due to the ease of importing and creating drugs.

It's laughable you think that is the sole reason as to why the crime rate is higher.

And much of daily life from your perceived glory day turned out to be very wrong.

Show me how.

My point is that your concept of marriages being based off of love has the correlation with the divorce rate.

Then what should marraige be based on?

[Herbsinator]

Re: Is the traditional family dead?

I'm going to have to side with Cebby on this argument. Divorce rates are higher now than in the past simply because it is more socially acceptable for couples to get a divorce than in the past. I guarantee that the actual number of happily married couples hasn't decreased at all. It was just that in the past divorce wasn't seen as a viable option so they would stay together even if they weren't happy. I would argue that it is probably better for children to live in a functional one parent house rather than a dysfunctional two parent house where they fight all the time and the parents clearly aren't happy.

It's not even a debate...the quality of life for people in the United States is better than it has ever been.

[Cebby]

Re: Is the traditional family dead?

It's called the judicial system. Do you even know what their main focus is?

Uphold the laws of the country/constitution?

Whatever the purpose of the judicial system, a society with legalized racism and sexism is not a society with quality morals and ethics.

It's laughable you think that is the sole reason as to why the crime rate is higher.

What else is it due to?

Aside from the obvious crime that is attributable to it, the lack of fathers from imprisonment and death due to drugs has contributed to a further increase in crime.

I think that's a far more likely scenario than a "lack of morals."

Show me how.

Discrimination based on race, discrimination based on sex, discrimination based on religion, abuse of women, abuse of children, massive corruption in all levels of government including the purchasing of votes and false imprisonment, and supporters of communism and Nazism.

Then what should marraige be based on?

Marriage should be based on love, but if you care about divorce statistics, a long marriage should probably be arranged by parents in a less developed country which places great emphasis on religion.

However, much like in the pre-1960s-1970s United States, those marriages are not necessarily good marriages, they're just marriages in which the female has no choice but to submit to the male.

[Speedy]

Re: Is the traditional family dead?

Uphold the laws of the country/constitution?

Whatever the purpose of the judicial system, a society with legalized racism and sexism is not a society with quality morals and ethics.

That type of society is certainly an injustice to which we both agree. However, the focus of the judicial system is to uphold righteousness, plain and simple; in the case presented, what is right and what is wrong is always revealed and judged.

What else is it due to?

Aside from the obvious crime that is attributable to it, the lack of fathers from imprisonment and death due to drugs has contributed to a further increase in crime.

I think that's a far more likely scenario than a "lack of morals."

Drugs are certainly not the main reason why crime is up nor will it ever be. It's men/women refusing to do the right thing, a lot of the time which is attributed to the upbringing. It's the parent(s)' responsibility to teach a child what is right and what is wrong to which will always be the case. Values are being deterioated and watered down to where generations have passed along to the point that what was taught as wrong years ago is now deemed "tolerable". I vehemently disagree with situation ethics which is being widespread taught.

Discrimination based on race, discrimination based on sex, discrimination based on religion, abuse of women, abuse of children, massive corruption in all levels of government including the purchasing of votes and false imprisonment, and supporters of communism and Nazism.

We can also both agree that these injustices aren't nor ever will be correct but they have nothing to do with the actual morals and values being taught to the average child in America in both present time and yester-year.

Values such as being accountable for one's actions whether good or bad, being respectful to one's peers & elders, doing what one says that he/she is going to do and not reneging, lying, not trying to "screw the system" and try shortcuts instead of doing things the right way which is asked of by the employer/teacher/parent/elder, etc. etc.

Marriage should be based on love, but if you care about divorce statistics, a long marriage should probably be arranged by parents in a less developed country which places great emphasis on religion.

However, much like in the pre-1960s-1970s United States, those marriages are not necessarily good marriages, they're just marriages in which the female has no choice but to submit to the male.

The bolded statements just grab me in amazement. Foremost, marraige should and always should be based on love - it's why men should court a lady for as long as it takes until he realizes he loves her and wants to marry her; it's why a lady has a lengthy space of time between the courtship and engangement to ensure the man is indeed the one she loves and wants to spend her life with.

There's a reason the presiding bishop/reverend makes both the groom and bride say the wedding vows; in sickness and in health, rich or poor, 'till death do us part. Ironically but still related to the topic, those vows each person makes is directly correlated with morals/values as well. If he/she knows that the vows will not be kept, then there simply shouldn't be a marraige.

Irregardless, I'm again amazed at your views of a perfect and long-lasting marraige.

[Cebby]

Re: Is the traditional family dead?

Oh my God

[Herbsinator]

Re: Is the traditional family dead?

The bolded statements just grab me in amazement. Foremost, marraige should and always should be based on love - it's why men should court a lady for as long as it takes until he realizes he loves her and wants to marry her; it's why a lady has a lengthy space of time between the courtship and engangement to ensure the man is indeed the one she loves and wants to spend her life with.

There's a reason the presiding bishop/reverend makes both the groom and bride say the wedding vows; in sickness and in health, rich or poor, 'till death do us part. Ironically but still related to the topic, those vows each person makes is directly correlated with morals/values as well. If he/she knows that the vows will not be kept, then there simply shouldn't be a marraige.

Irregardless, I'm again amazed at your views of a perfect and long-lasting marraige.

You are confusing what should be and what is reality. In a lot of the world Marriage is basically seen as a business transaction between two different families. Honestly, if more people in the United States looked at it like that, we would probably have less marriages! What happens when you fall out of love with a person?

We can also both agree that these injustices aren't nor ever will be correct but they have nothing to do with the actual morals and values being taught to the average child in America in both present time and yester-year.

I'd beg to differ on this statement too. People in America never reinforced the ideas of racism or sexism to children?

[JBH3]

Re: Is the traditional family dead?

I'm sure it has contributed. Kids are being stuck in day care or are home alone until 5 or 6 at night. Then parents get home, sit around tired and watch TV then go to bed.

That's unacceptable. I often feel that way (bolded), but my need/desire to spend some actual quality time w/ my son is more important to me than if I feel tired etc. Working 8hrs and then doing nothing but sitting in front of the TV w/ our child is not fair to him (nor me). So I, for at least an hour, I take him to a nearby park/playground and let loose.

I don't think many parents understand the amount of work involved and time required for raising just one child, and then they compound it by having additional children.

I know my parents didn't. Both worked long hours, my mom wouldn't get home w/ the 3 of us until 5:30/6pm most the time. In the winter, my pop's UPS routes were killer, and he often wouldn't get home till 9.

You've got to put at least as much energy and focus into your children as you do your job, and then you're only breaking even.

[KG]

Re: Is the traditional family dead?

Yes, although I'm jaded by living in a crazy inflated area. It takes 2 incomes for most families to survive these days which results in less time spent with your children and more dependence on someone else helping to raise them.

[Jonesy]

Re: Is the traditional family dead?

Some interesting posts here.

My wife and I have this discussion frequently. Is it better for our children (we only have one child now but plan to have 1 or 2 more if possible in the future) for us to both work and for them to go to better schools, have better equipment / clothes, have a nicer house in a nicer heighbourhood or only one of us work and we get by at that level.

It's a tough choice and to be honest i have no idea which is the better option for the children in the long term and we just try to spend as much quality time with them as we can and try to raise them "right".

I was raised by a single parent and my dad is a deadbeat. If anything it gave me a great example of what i didn't want to turn out like rather than turned me into a deadbeat myself (or a "fruit" as DC puts it ) but i think my mother played a huge role in that.

A few quick points:
I totally agree with JB's posts, good stuff my man, it sounds like your kids got a good father which is a rare commodity.

Re the high divorce rate - i think like others have mentioned it's just more acceptable to divorce these days so people aren't forced to stay in poor relationships. I don't think the marriages themselves are any better or worse than they were it's just people feel they can get out of it more freely now.

A huge problem is that people don't feel like they need to take responsibility for their own actions and need to realise marriage isn't for everyone (I personally love being married). People need to make sure they are ready for that level of committment before making the leap in marriage. And having a child is about 1000x a bigger committment than a marriage so people who aren't having a child for the right reasons need to wrap it up and stop making that mistake.

[DC]

Re: Is the traditional family dead?

It's alive and well in my family.

My man Fish