OS Book Club Pt II

[JohnnytheSkin]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I'm currently reading Hobbit/LOTR out loud to my daughter and she LOVES the poems and songs, and asks to sing them herself. She's seven and it's awesome! My son a decade ago at the same age absolutely loathed them, and when I did my own every few years reread I too was bored...no matter how good the lore and depth conveyed is.

The series is still good, the foundation for all fantasy period, the films are phenomenal (seen each like 20 times and can quote them at embarrassing length), but I greatly prefer modern fantasy, as I see LOTR as full of tropes and simple character archetypes. But then I remember that Tolkien invented so many of them that I can't get mad, LOL.

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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I was recently reading on Reddit someone reading them aloud to their kids. I think my parents reading to me ending around the time the books I wanted to read got bigger than The Cat in the Hat lol, but I think that is such a good idea and must be an awesome experience for both of you.

[JohnnytheSkin]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

Yeah, it's a lot of fun. She likes to color or do crafts while I read versus snuggling up, but she still understands everything when I quiz her...how youngsters can multitask these days is mind boggling, I always have to focus on a single thing. She's also a voracious reader on her own.

Over the last year or so I've read aloud A Series of Unfortunate Events (then we watched the Netflix show which was great), everything Harry Potter including the side books and Cursed Child (seen the first three movies), and now Hobbit/LOTR. Percy Jackson is probably next up.

Just finished coughing out Riddles in the Dark with Gollum, and loved hearing earlier how "my Gandalf voice sounds like Dumbledore", LOL. Also told her I don't have 13 different dwarf voices so it's Thorin separate and a dozen clones.

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[Hammerhunker]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

Yeah, it's a lot of fun. She likes to color or do crafts while I read versus snuggling up, but she still understands everything when I quiz her...how youngsters can multitask these days is mind boggling, I always have to focus on a single thing. She's also a voracious reader on her own.

Over the last year or so I've read aloud A Series of Unfortunate Events (then we watched the Netflix show which was great), everything Harry Potter including the side books and Cursed Child (seen the first three movies), and now Hobbit/LOTR. Percy Jackson is probably next up.

Just finished coughing out Riddles in the Dark with Gollum, and loved hearing earlier how "my Gandalf voice sounds like Dumbledore", LOL. Also told her I don't have 13 different dwarf voices so it's Thorin separate and a dozen clones.

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As an elementary educator, I applaud you sharing literacy with your daughter; very simple recipe to develop literacy skills. As a classroom teacher, my favorite part of the day is read-aloud. I have developed some pretty cool voices over the years but I think my BFG voice was tweaked for many other characters.

In an interview with Roy Dotrice, who was the Game of Thrones audio narrator, stated he has a thousands of voices that all sound the same. He was being humble, what a talent he was.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I’m pumped to see y’all’s reactions to the new Dune movie. As someone that had never read the book nor even read a summary or anything the movie was breathtaking for me. Can’t wait to see what you guys think.


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I would recommend reading the book in the interim before the next movie considering the movie hasn't started production apart from a script treatment in development.

Overall I think the movie stays fairly true to it's source. It definitely skips or skims the surface on minor arcs, but my biggest criticisms when comparing to the source material is that Jessica and Leit are not nearly as strong or compelling characters as they are in the book.

Plus, I feel like the movie spoils some later book and later series developments with a couple details already shown and having Duncan Idaho go into beast mode for ten minutes.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I liked it a lot, and thought they did a fairly good job adapting the book. I watched the first episode of the miniseries and stopped because it seemed like a super direct adaptation, but it did make me realize there’s a scene in the book (not really a spoiler) when they first get to Arrakis where Lady Jessica sees that there are people on this planet that sell water to others and just goes “nope, from now on anyone who comes here can get free water”. I felt like there’s a lot of moments of characterization like that that endear you to the Atreides and there’s not much in the movie outside of well they’re the good guys and the Harkonnen are bad. On that note, I did like Leto in the storm looking out for his men, but Liet doesn’t seem to care lol.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I'm bummed we didn't get a drunken Jason Mamoa scene.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

15 minutes into the Two Towers when Aragorn and Legolas break into a duet in honor of Boromir

[KSUowls]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

Very happy to comment on a non C-level novel.

Dune

I watched the movie on Saturday, bought the book Sunday evening, and now I have finished it. Which is kind of odd since I really wasn't a huge fan of the movie. I did see potential for a greater story though, and so I quickly acquired the book.

Despite my misgivings about the movie, I'm actually kind of happy that I saw it first. The book is woefully barren of physical character descriptions. It helped to have a picture in my head for many of the characters, as well as the proper pronunciation of fremen.

However, it also reinforced my thinking that the movie should have been longer. Not to cover the entirety of the book in 1 film, but to give proper justice to the many important pieces that were omitted. There is a great deal of clarity that we get with each character in the books from important scenes which did not make their way into the movie.

I'll try to keep this spoiler free, but overall it was a very enjoyable story, though the ever escalating fervor of mysticism was a turnoff. Certainly it helped to drive and explain important events within the story, but I felt that it detracted a bit from the character. The end result could have been achieved in a much more secular way that I would have found more interesting. Not because religious overtones are bad, but I just think that it detracted from the core competency of the character, removing much of the political intrigue of this feudal society. It created an abrupt and fatalistic path for the story and character to take.

This wasn't true for the first 400-500 pages though, where Paul is actually one of my favorite literary characters from any of these major fantasy/scifi franchises, for the simple fact that his prowess makes sense.

When I think about Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, Frodo, or any of the heroic characters from major fictional universes, they all lack a certain believability. Luke is twice as old as Anakin (who was already considered too old) when he starts his jedi training, and he only has an actual master for the duration of a few months throughout the main trilogy. He blows up a Deathstar in an X-wing, a ship that he has never piloted, and he goes on to become a being of great power with little real guidance.

Harry is born to a pair of talent magical parents. He didn't grow up with their guidance though, and at no point (even as he was constantly having threats on his life) did he ever throw himself into his studies/training. But he manages to defeat the greatest dark lord of the era at 17 years of age.

Frodo...does nothing more than bare the burden of the One Ring as he treks to Mordor in secret. The story makes it clear that it is a heavy burden that not just anyone can do, but at the end of the day Frodo is still just kind of....Frodo.

I've enjoyed all these franchises and characters, but they all benefit from heavy plot armor that you just kind of have to accept.

What I like about Paul in the first half is that he has the innate talent of Luke & Harry, but he also has the training to go along with it. The early parts of Dune give us several glimpses into his cunning, analytical abilities, and even his proficiency in combat with his instructors. It gives us both context and examples as to how he might be able to overcome major difficulties. Something I very much appreciate in character development.


I couldn't go completely without spoilers

Spoiler

The time skip was jarring. The story absolutely had to advance the timeline to an extent that would make sense to see the conclusion of a successful guerilla operation, but there could have easily been some transition chapters so that we didn't just suddenly skip 2 years. 1 moment Paul is and Jessica are being accepted into the Fremen, the next Chani is ending every sentence with "my beloved", and they have a 2 year old son together. The scene leading up to the time skip also would have been a more natural place to end the movie in Part 1.


This is more of a movie critique, but think that it was a mistake turning Dr. Kynes into a female. To be honest, I did not like her in the movie, Paul quite acutely calling out her hypocrisy in the movie, but I didn't really think anything else of the casting since I didn't know the original story. Kynes in the book was more tolerable thanks to some inner monologues and additional scenes that were explored. In retrospect though, after learning that Kynes was supposed to be a man and some of the other peculiarities of Fremen society, it simply doesn't make sense to make Kynes a female in the movie.

Women in Dune held a lot of importance, but the Fremen women clearly weren't the leaders. Ferocious, talented and honorable without a doubt, but their allegiance can be bought with a knife in their husbands chest. I do think that they can get around this in the next movie by simply not exploring the transfer of Jamis's wife to Paul, or that Stilgar's wife believed that she would soon be bound to him as well. It is a clear diversion from the theme of the source material though, which I'm just never a fan of.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I'll leave Luke alone since I'm only familiar with him through the main line movies and a handful of games that treated him like baby Jesus.

Frodo, to me, is great because he didn't need to gain super abilities or learn a set of specialized skills in a matter of weeks. Frodo is stubborn in his perseverance and Sam steadfast in his loyalty and only those two could have made the trip. Would they have been useful at the battles they missed? Maybe, maybe not. What makes the Fellowship so great is their character and tests of character defines them and the narrative. I don't think of Frodo as being able to run straight into a platoon of Orcs, but to have the strength and fortitude to endure and move forward.

Harry is probably more in the middle to be honest. He's never really described as anything more than a competent wizard, however, he plays to his strengths using basically two main spells by the end of the series. His character was already defined fairly early on and he sticks to that for the most part throughout the whole series. He's loyal, stubborn to a fault, and willing to try even with failure staring straight at him. Voldemort is a bonehead and makes boneheaded moves while being dependent upon semi loyal groupies and outright morons.


Re: Dune
The only thing I didn't care for regarding Liet was how terribly underdeveloped the character was. Much more interesting in the book and more fulfilling to the narrative as a whole.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

The mainline movies are Luke’s entire story. I feel like saying Harry is a competent wizard is like saying Luke is a competent pilot, just seems way understated lol.

As far as Liet, my reading of him in the book was he isn’t a Fremen as much as the intermediary between the Fremen and the Empire, who he actually works for. The gender swap didn’t bother me. I definitely preferred where his/her story ends in the book over the movie, though I guess it was a decent enough way to get across a similar idea in less time. As much as I like the movie, the more I sit with it the more I wonder if it really got across what the book did. Cutting out all of the political intrigue kinda leaves you with a very simple savior story.

[KSUowls]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

Frodo is brave, resilient, and selfless. That much is true, but so are many other prominent characters in the story. That is to say, there isn't anything truly remarkable about Frodo, yet only he is able to carry the ring. Which perhaps has to do with his own lack of ambition, but other than that there isn't anything special about him that many other heroes in the story don't also have. I am admittedly hard on Frodo because of how whined, and he was my least favorite part of the movies. I just wanted a better explanation as to why his bravery and resiliency is so much better than the rest of the fellowship.

Harry's problem goes a bit further. Harry Potter seems to be naturally talented and has proficiency with a few spells, on top of being brave, loyal, and all of these things. Presumably though, so is every Auror and many of the adults who are also fighting the Death Eaters in Britain. But since Harry never exhibits any great care in his studies or training, the only way the story is able to let him overcome the obstacles in front of him is to dumb down Voldemort and his minions. It doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence in the wider magical community if they are driven to their knees and on the brink of being completely overcome by a group of half imbeciles, but that's exactly the route that the story had to take because it made Harry so unremarkable. As an example, Luscious Malfoy climbed to be the right hand of the most infamous dark wizard of that generation, and he had incredible political pull. Those things suggest a high level of cunning and ability. If he actually had anything approaching that level of competence though, then the Harry Potter, as he was portrayed in the story, would never have stood a chance.

This is exactly where I make the distinction with Dune and Paul (again the early portions) because it didn't have to dumb down the adults for Paul to to succeed. His natural acumen and training from an early age created a believable competence that allowed him to play on the same level as the adults, without turning them into something that a simple 15 year old could defeat. The story provided context for these abilities by showing that he is trained every day with a sword, even defeating his own trainer, showing that his mother trained him to be uber-observant, etc..

I know it's odd to criticize stories about fantasy and magic for a lack of realism, but that's exactly where my issue lie with some of the characters in these franchises. I don't care what magics or rules that a particular universe has, I just ask that those rules be consistent, and also show me why I should believe this heroic character is able to perform these great feats

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I mean, I'm not gonna bring a movie character into a discussion around books and how they compare to in regards to Mary Sue because I feel like much of Luke's mysticism and fervent really started with Return of The Jedi and the expanded universe after that. Of which I'm only familiar with the movie. My main point was I don't think he's nearly as developed or dense as Paul or Frodo because his growth very much revolves around the extraordinary absorption of unfamiliar skills and untrained talent.

Harry is a clutch time student for sure. I still feel like he's basically described as a competent wizard outside of those clutch situations where he is procrastinating or just not giving a **** about studies and certain classes. He's not even the best in his peer group.

Re: Frodo
I feel like the book went out of the way more to show how tempting the ring was to everyone else who held it. The movie did that somewhat, but to me that was the sticking point with Frodo and the ring.

[DieHardYankee26]

OS Book Club Pt II

Good point on Luke, he probably would be a more compelling character if he had a book series.

And I think both of you guys are on it with Harry, I guess he’s not shown to be a particularly adept wizard. They just had to make the villains scrubs to compensate for it. I do think there is something to be said about the legend of Voldemort though as a kinda cool element of the story. The magical community is so paralyzed by the idea of the guy that they won’t even say his name. Dumbledore could’ve done a lot of what Harry did, but he was to Voldemort what I’m now seeing as Gandalf is to Saruman. Sometimes all you need is to scare people so bad they don’t believe they can do anything and it takes someone who doesn’t have that fear to show everyone else what’s possible.

Going through the Rings books now, it had to be a hobbit basically because they (outside of Bilbo I guess) don’t have much ambition outside of living a comfortable life so they’re not tempted by the power of the ring. Frodo is basically going through the journey with the ring like it’s a hot potato, he just wants it to get away lol.

[Beantown]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

No surprise Dune Part Two got greenlit today so now I have to decide if I want to keep it fresh and read nothing about what’s next or if I went to read the books. Annoying that I have until 2023 to decided.


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