Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

[Matt10]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

SPH, the super cancel is to be used how you see fit. There are times when I have to use to just gain control of my player who is on the rails playing defense - and I will tap it.

Most of the time, however, I will gain full control of the player and use it pretty much everywhere. The only time I try not to use it is when defending the sidelines because I do not want my player to go out of bounds.

Another tip about defense, make sure to use that momentum of the super cancel - then quickly switch to another player, do the same thing - block those lanes with the super cancel - the CPU will definitely make a mistake, or get caught in possession.

Erithtotl - bursting is where you are faced up against the CPU (1 v 1) and you basically just time the move where you simply evade their tackle. That part is okay, however, the next reaction is the CPU player who then doesn't chase at the right angle, but actually looks to accelerate very slowly and almost stops. I'll get some video up of it if I can bring myself to put acceleration low like we used to (46-50).

[SpHSpH]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

I just got rolled (at home) against Southampton. The slide tackles from the CPU were astonishing. It is absolutely "two sets of rules" when comparing the human player with the CPU.

Goals: 0(HUM) / 4(CPU)
Shots: 7(HUM) / 8(CPU)
SoT: 4(HUM) / 6(CPU)
Poss: 55%(HUM) / 45%(CPU)
Tackles: 12(HUM) / 23(CPU)
Fouls: 5(HUM) / 4(CPU)
Yellow: 2(HUM) / 0(CPU)
Red: 1(HUM) / 0(CPU)

So ... the CPU had twice as many tackles as me ... and yet the fouls were roughly equal. I committed five fouls ... three of which were enough to warrant a card ... despite the fact that NONE of those tackles were slide tackles. The CPU committed four fouls ... nearly ALL of which were slide tackles ... and none of those fouls were deemed worthy of a card.

It looks like 2/3 of the CPU tackles occurred when I was in possession in the attacking third (not uniformly distributed around the entire pitch). Of course the CPU is able to get away with these tackles when I am a threat to score ... of course.

I am also really annoyed that the shots were nearly equal, the SoT were nearly equal ... even if I did not expect to justify winning this game ... getting routed 0-4 does not seem fair. Four goals from six shots on target?

I will keep at it ... I have to get better sometime. But this is so defeating.

-----

I played this match using the OS Community Sliders that are under the most recent discussion (with the changes to line height and line width) ... I am not really sure if what happened to me is in any way related to the changes in the sliders. Just sayin' ...

[Matt10]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

Find a way to post your matches on here, let's analyze from there. Honestly, when I'm on Twitch I know guys can say something about how I play as well - you might need the same thing to get better.

Btw, thanks for trying the changes, as the one who determined the changes - they are to be noted as temporary, and may not even be considered as final. We do need feedback on it though before making a decision.

[SpHSpH]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

This continues to plague me as I attempt to get a foothold in this game.

The frequency and success rate of the CPU tackles are beyond belief. It is as if they always know exactly *when* I am going to pass or turn or shoot ... and it is as if they always know exactly *where* I am going to pass or turn or shoot (because maybe they *do* ... because of course they do ... it is a computer game). This seems to be a bias that favors the CPU over the HUM player. Why?

I cannot get any fruitful build-up when I am in possession ... I can maintain possession if I pass it around amongst my back four, I can even hold my own in the midfield ... but as soon as I get within striking distance, as soon as the 18-yard-box comes into view on the screen ... my time is up, and I will soon be "legally" dispossessed.

I am not even sure what to practice to get better?

[BL8001]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

Look how the cpu plays.

I know, they have esp and always pass it the millisecond before you would win the ball with a challenge...

Aha! Egads! There it is.

Always pass the ball before the cpu gets too close. Simply doing that will reduce the cpu tackle count.

And the main reason you cant tackle the cpu like they do you is because they have an entire set of quick hitting dribble moves the user doesn't and dont have to obey the momentum engine in the least bit.

Anyone who denies that fact then please tell me how to do the cruyff turn the cpu does ad nauseum.

Yeah you cant, there is no cruyff turn command because for the user it only occurs sometimes when you hit LB and a particular direction on the L stick. Not something you can pull off when you want it like the cpu does.

And if you notice how the cpu evades your challenges, 93% of the time its with an instant drag back or cruyff turn or the always annoying drag back to cruyff turn speed boost cpu only special move.

And the real kicker is the cpu doesnt care about dribble star ratings because they just abuse these moves.

I have never seen the cpu use any of the dribble moves the user is given.

[SpHSpH]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

Maybe I need to "dart about" on offense more? Change direction constantly? Lots of starts and stops? It seems the CPU always know what my player is doing, and uses that knowledge to get an unfair advantage when tackling. How can I trick or confuse the CPU defenders when I am in possession?

I need to get the CPU to do more sitting back on defense ... I do not feel like I ever have any time to put together an attacking move. I understand that the whole point of defense is to make it hard for the offense to attack - I get that - but I am looking for just a little more balance between the CPU and the HUM.

[J.C]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

Anyone who say's the problem lies with the user is kidding themselves. Even the Slider guys. You put in work and that's appreciated but the fact is the esp and ninja like reflexes goes deeper than any slider.

It's a mix of how the difficulty is coded and how the devs botched the ratings or how certain Attributes mean so little in general or on certain difficultys.

I mean, it's no coincidence the game has such little player and team I.D.

[BL8001]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

The design team at EA should have helped all of us out and called the game

FIFA LT and not FIFA 15.

The LT button is god in this game.

You can hold LT and precise dribble or shield, you can hold LT to use an ineffective but strangely uber effective shielding.

Ineffective because when you would logically want to use it when say, you know, the ball feels exposed like everytime you enter the penalty area and somehow the ball becomes looser on your players foot. Yeah that would be a good time for shielding to work, but there is no animation in the game for that.

There is an animation for how Ea wants it to work. Think of it as the UFC button.
Because you will body slam the defender or punch him and knock him down or arm wrestle with him and make him stumble.
LT on offense is what the B button is on defense.

Just liberally squeeze in a whole bunch of LT presses. At all times in the game in all circumstances.

In fact the only time LT isnt the bees knees is when you shoot. Because what fool decided we needed the goofy flair shots? Probably the same one who put in most of the celebrations.

But here we go again. Holding LT and shooting can be awesome when the animation is a toe poke goal, or a great knee height laser shot, or some of the woeful but still cool looking bicycle attempts.
But of course more often than not LT and shot becomes that pathetically weak drag back and slide it shot that is just plain goofy. Or some pirouette with a heel click shot I have never seen before.

If EA would just get off youtube and quit making animations for some stupid football trick shot that happened one time ever and instead added animations for your forwards pressuring the cpu defenders.

Which brings up another fifa wtf, why when possession changes, the very instant, per second per second, why that very instant do your attackers instantly call off the dogs and back pedal?

Anyway, yes sph you should stop start and jink and use LB and LT and hold RT and LT together to do all sorts of slower moves than the cpu uses but they still work but it becomes this silly call and response dance with you doing a move, the cpu becoming stunned for a sec but recovering perfectly and quickly while you are stuck in the mud briefly before you escape the momentum hell and then you pull another stop start move and the cpu is stunned and repeat over and over.

[SpHSpH]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

BL8001 ... I feel like we see eye-to-eye on a lot of our complaints with the FIFA series. I do really enjoy this game - and I have logged way too many hours to count over the past ten years or so - but it still frustrates me every year. Thanks for the detailed post about corners as well.

EA has become too consumed with Ultimate Team (which I have never played, nor do I have any interest in playing) ... so the single-player-offline experience has been seriously shafted. I, as an offline player, am only worth $60 to EA ... whereas an Ultimate Team player is worth $60 + $$$ for all of the various "extras". It is too bad that the $60 I paid in the first place no longer covers the full game that comes in the box. Since FUT is always [person v person] ... the [person v CPU] gameplay is virtually unimportant ... and therefore it is riddled with errors and bias. So disappointing ... but nothing that can be done.

[BL8001]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

Back on the ps2 when you could do things and install the game on your ps2 hdd you could get into a settings file and change just about everything. It made fifa on ps2 really good.

The same sort of stuff the pc community can do.

So there is zero doubt that there is a very good and fair game inside the FIFA 15 disc. All you have to do is take what they have given us and tweak it.

Exactly what EA could do whenever they feel like it. Because on console we dont have the access. So #1 why cant we have the access? Why cant they allow us to adjust things like ball friction, keeper kick length and accuracy, ball magnetism to player, lofted pass accuracy, etc.

These are things pc users can mess with.

2015, why on console are we still restricted to only having it their way?

Just give us a debug menu and we can make the changes we want to make.

Another thing that has puzzled me is this, if I was a dev I would be very curious to check online and see what the pc community was doing with "my" game. I would be very inclined to download their patches and fixes to see if they were as good as people are saying. If they were (and they most certainly are) I would look at what they did and make similar changes to fifa 15.

Why not? All of us are basically beta testers, if a select group of pc users care to make an incredible gameplay patch what would make me ignore it?

Why would I not want to add what they have done?

There is no argument against this because if you have played fifa then you understand how every way you play this game the gameplay is different.

Cm with sliders is different than exhibition with sliders is different than weekly matches on default which is different than fut gameplay which is different than that weekly news match you can play.

So why not at least establish a cool base gameplay under default exhibition? Gameplay that is really close to how the sport is played.

[SpHSpH]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

I am reviving this thread because I am *STILL* frustrated with the frequency and efficiency of the CPU tackles (and the CPU defending in general). I am 60+ matches in across two different career modes ... and I simply cannot score enough to be competitive ... more than 50% of the time I get blanked, and more than 30% of the time I only get one goal (and that is usually from a penalty) ... I cannot score from open play - and it is deeply associated with what the CPU can get away with on defense.

I do fine when I am on defense (I probably concede 1.5 goals per match ... not outstanding ... but low enough that I should reasonably expect to win *some* of the time), and I do well in possessing the ball in my defensive third and in the middle third. But (nearly) every time that I reach the attacking third, the CPU "awareness" or "reactions" or "positioning" or "tackling" (take your pick ... the CPU always *knows* what I am trying to do) kicks in. If you look at the match stats following the game ... the CPU has loads of tackles (around 25 in a 15-minute-per-half match) ... and they are ALL within three yards of the 18-yard box. I get close - so close - and then I lose possession. Every. Single. Time.

Many of these tackles appear to me to be blatant fouls (especially if you consider what I get called for when I am on defense). But it is not that I want the fouls to be called more often (though that would be nice) - I would just rather that they (the fouls or the tackles) happened less often. It would be nice to have an honest chance to shoot on goal every once in a while.

I would willingly abide by the "practice, practice, practice" mindset ... but I have no idea what I am supposed to practice in the first place. Or how I am even supposed to practice at all (no practice mode in FIFA15? ... that was a brilliant idea ... thanks EA)?

I have played FIFA for almost ten years, I have been playing all-manual since FIFA09, I have been at WorldClass/Legendary since FIFA10 ... and FIFA15 is the first time in all of those years that the transition from one year to the next has been this frustrating. I acknowledge that it takes some time to get used to the newer version ... but this year has been the absolute worst.

Any help would help ... thanks.

[half-fast]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

BL8001 ... I feel like we see eye-to-eye on a lot of our complaints with the FIFA series. I do really enjoy this game - and I have logged way too many hours to count over the past ten years or so - but it still frustrates me every year. Thanks for the detailed post about corners as well.

EA has become too consumed with Ultimate Team (which I have never played, nor do I have any interest in playing) ... so the single-player-offline experience has been seriously shafted. I, as an offline player, am only worth $60 to EA ... whereas an Ultimate Team player is worth $60 + $$$ for all of the various "extras". It is too bad that the $60 I paid in the first place no longer covers the full game that comes in the box. Since FUT is always [person v person] ... the [person v CPU] gameplay is virtually unimportant ... and therefore it is riddled with errors and bias. So disappointing ... but nothing that can be done.

I do for the most part agree with you, but I also have another opinion, and as a programmer I think I can offer some decent insight.

I agree that EA focuses on Ultimate Team way too much. It could actually be a kick-*** mode if it wasnt centred around money. There are more reasons why the gameplay isn't as good though.

1) People want to see better visuals. This historically has been the most oft-asked for feature, and it is the easiest way to impress people. Since the first soccer game, people(including myself) have wanted better visuals. Now that graphics have reached the level they have, it will become more difficult to impress visually, and as a result, you now see people asking for better gameplay more often than ever.

Graphics and visuals do have plus sides of course - immersion and believability. Better textures, better models, more memory, faster processors = more immersion. Soccer games were *always* fun, but they did not always look good. Visuals are playing catch up, but now that they are catching up, we're not having as much fun, because things are looking more realistic than ever, but acting far from it. This will pressure EA to make the meat and potatoes(gameplay) better.

Another benefit of better visuals is more animations, which not only helps to keep things more realistic looking. but also allows for more plays. Eventually they wont even use animations in my opinion, they'll give the limbs brains so to speak on how to move and which way, thus giving the player models infinite motion capabilities like real humans.


2) It's not easy to program smart AI. This is the one I hate to admit to myself more than any other, because as a programmer I myself have programmed in a few bot competitions and personal projects with the need for good AI, but feel EA's budget and large team should be able to tackle it better than how theyre doing it. It's amazing playing playing different sports games by the same and different companies, and see the different strengths and weaknesses in the cpu AI. It makes you wonder how some games get it pretty good, and others have disaster areas(NHL comes to mind).

One problem is EA is like that kid you knew in high school(or after) that wanted to please everyone, so he'd seemingly act one way, but then around other people, behave differently to please them. EA tries to impress people who like graphics with FIFAs visuals. They keep as many people from the "I want authenticity" camp happy by acquiring exclusive licenses, including the Premier League, by having all that leagues official stadiums, kits, names and faces in the game. They keep the kids happy, and this really is the most important one, by making a game thats easy to play, looks good and really fun via one button magic, with full auto controls and aim, and basically one button bicycle kicks.

Unfortunately this leaves the sim people kind of left out because, while we like the visuals and really enjoy the authenticity, its very difficult to make a game that would be so fun for kids to pick up and play with amazing always exciting play and games that are close in the scoreline when it should be a blow out, and also make one that has the reality that we enjoy.

I for one think soccer, and every sport should be hard to learn in a video game, not to the extent it is in real life, but it should be more challenging to master. I play full manual any chance I get in a game because I hate things being decided for me, I hate cheap one button push goals and think it should be harder to do everything in this game because as a soccer player I'm aware of how hard it is in real life. I dont think youre player should auto jump and you just push a button to head, I think you should have to time the jump and the header, this would add a whole bunch of realism for us, but would take away from the fun that a kid would have.

One last thing to mention in this area is the more thinking the AI does, the more processor-expensive it becomes. The more thinking = more cpu cycles. Ultimately, EA not only needs to step up the game in this department, but they need to learn how to more efficiently use the processing power available in the newer systems to have more AI thinking while running all those beautiful graphics.

This brings me to my last point ...


3) Player personalities. If getting AI to behave with intelligence isnt hard enough, for the game to seem real, we need certain players to act like they do in real life, or at least, different from eachother so you can distinguish the difference. One problem with this is, the developers arent as brilliant of athletes as the pros are. Sure, you can take an average forward and code him to play one way and noone will think anything of it, but how do you emulate Messi, Ronaldo or any of the other greats who are not only extremely skilled, but good thinkers. It actually wouldnt be terrible, if it werent for the fact that a human is controlling one player at a time in the game. We have a different perspective of the game than a pro does, and can see more things than they can.

The AI is still very much on rails, and only in the last iteration we've seen a few strides forward in regards to players thinking a little more, so replicating players who are superior is hard to do, and thus is often staged - whether you sim a game or play it, I believe its mostly staged to *appear* realistic, and that there is the problem.

The AI is inferior to a human by a long shot still, and they give the computer certain advantages so that they can compete.



This was a long-winded post, I hope I didnt offend you with anything I wrote. This is stuff Ive been trying to get across to people in little bits for a while, but its better written out in full.

All in all I tink your threads are great because they raises awareness to the fact that the AI is pathetic at times, cheats and that we do indeed want better gameplay.

Thanks for your threads.

[SpHSpH]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

I am *STILL* frustrated by this ... do I just have to accept that the CPU will perfectly tackle the ball from me every time? And that there is absolutely nothing that I can do about it? This is simply unfair. There is no honest chance for me to have any opportunity to move the ball in the attacking third. NONE.

The CPU has an unfair knowledge of what I am doing with my player ... the CPU always knows when I change speeds or change direction, the CPU always knows when I am about to attempt a shot or cross or pass, the CPU is never fooled by a skill move.

The slide tackles are rampant ... the CPU player on the ground (because he just slide tackled me) is *still* able to get to the loose ball faster than my player who is standing. I have *NO* *CHANCE* to perform a successful slide tackle when I am on defense ... but the CPU does it throughout the game when they are on defense. The unbalance here is just remarkable.

I have nothing ... I cannot play this game ... I absolutely cannot score enough when *every* attack is blown up by the hyper-aware CPU defense. I am averaging around 0.5 goals per game (17 goals in 30 EPL matches ... and four of those are from penalty kicks) - if I concede a single goal ... I am beat.

[Matt10]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

I am *STILL* frustrated by this ... do I just have to accept that the CPU will perfectly tackle the ball from me every time? And that there is absolutely nothing that I can do about it? This is simply unfair. There is no honest chance for me to have any opportunity to move the ball in the attacking third. NONE.

The CPU has an unfair knowledge of what I am doing with my player ... the CPU always knows when I change speeds or change direction, the CPU always knows when I am about to attempt a shot or cross or pass, the CPU is never fooled by a skill move.

The slide tackles are rampant ... the CPU player on the ground (because he just slide tackled me) is *still* able to get to the loose ball faster than my player who is standing. I have *NO* *CHANCE* to perform a successful slide tackle when I am on defense ... but the CPU does it throughout the game when they are on defense. The unbalance here is just remarkable.

I have nothing ... I cannot play this game ... I absolutely cannot score enough when *every* attack is blown up by the hyper-aware CPU defense. I am averaging around 0.5 goals per game (17 goals in 30 EPL matches ... and four of those are from penalty kicks) - if I concede a single goal ... I am beat.

For as passionate you are about the game, and the issues you are having. It may be time to finally load up some video for us to analyze. There's a reason the CPU is able to slide tackle you and you not to them. This isn't that common for me, and I'm not sure about the majority here, but CPU makes bad slide tackles more than they good ones. I'm not saying you are inexperienced, but something has to be missing from your attacks that is resulting in the ease of CPU sliding.

[SpHSpH]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

Yeah - I have been looking into how the GameDVR thing works with XBox One - I am not fluent in editing clips or anything like that. I think there is some way for me to upload them to a YouTube channel. I would not be able to do any voice-overs or narration. I would probably need to put my thoughts into the description.

I am also a dad with (two) little kids ... so my time is limited ... and "learning to use GameDVR" competes with "actually play FIFA" for my finite minutes.

Thanks for the offer to examine my game play though ... I will make a real effort to capitalize on the offer ...