Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

[Khaldun]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

The CPU cheating is as obvious as the sky is blue. Their tackles are perfectly timed, they rarely get called for fouls, loose balls generally go their way, and regardless of individual players attributes their payers are flat stronger, faster, quicker, and operate above the laws of momentum.

I watch enough football to know that individual players get beat, all the damn time, and that some players are damn near impossible to stay in front of: Messi, Hazard, Lucas Moura. You aren't dispossessing others: Iniesta, Surez, Veratti. Hence the emphasis on tactics and teamwork. But you can't beat a CPU player 1v1 regardless of who you're playing with. It doesn't help Fifa's rankings are not only biased(EPL), but poorly represent their RL counterparts due to shoddy numbers distribution.

So, in my humblest of opinions, in order to get the title to play even remotely fairly you need give the CPU a point advantage in speed, say... 52/53 their way, while giving the user a 3-4 point advantage in acceleration. Say... 50/47. I'd also strongly suggest testing out the game with user marking on 100. Your teammates actually play with some semblance of urgency while filling gaps/space more quickly.

And finally, if it means that much to you, there needs to be a wholesale reworking of the ratings system. Right now, it's holding teams/players back from being accurate representations of their RL counterparts. Barcelona's consistent domination of possession? That ain't happening in this title, community sliders or no.

[Matt10]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

The CPU cheating is as obvious as the sky is blue. Their tackles are perfectly timed, they rarely get called for fouls, loose balls generally go their way, and regardless of individual players attributes their payers are flat stronger, faster, quicker, and operate above the laws of momentum.

I watch enough football to know that individual players get beat, all the damn time, and that some players are damn near impossible to stay in front of: Messi, Hazard, Lucas Moura. You aren't dispossessing others: Iniesta, Surez, Veratti. Hence the emphasis on tactics and teamwork. But you can't beat a CPU player 1v1 regardless of who you're playing with. It doesn't help Fifa's rankings are not only biased(EPL), but poorly represent their RL counterparts due to shoddy numbers distribution.

So, in my humblest of opinions, in order to get the title to play even remotely fairly you need give the CPU a point advantage in speed, say... 52/53 their way, while giving the user a 3-4 point advantage in acceleration. Say... 50/47. I'd also strongly suggest testing out the game with user marking on 100. Your teammates actually play with some semblance of urgency while filling gaps/space more quickly.

And finally, if it means that much to you, there needs to be a wholesale reworking of the ratings system. Right now, it's holding teams/players back from being accurate representations of their RL counterparts. Barcelona's consistent domination of possession? That ain't happening in this title, community sliders or no.

Look, I know what you're saying, but this is the most misguided post that I can think of. I don't mean that in a mean way - but you're blatantly suggesting some areas that the community sliders have put in more hours than you can think of in getting it to play right.

52/53 speed - drop it to 50/53, if you have it higher for the user - they not only will be able to consistently beat the CPU - they will leave them in the dust. This is why we have it on 50/53, it's enough that the CPU's defensive reactions are in tune with what is going on, but not so much they abandon early and run around with their heads cut off.

The marking @100 will literally make your teammates play worse. They will overly mark players that can simply run 2 inches in front of them and will become tiki taka. Marking higher incorporates more ADD - attention deficit defending - they want to mark EVERYONE, and will be consistently out of position.

With all that, I agree with you completely about the need to rework the ratings system - but for now, sliders can do just fine. Is it ideal? Absolutely not. However, there are no absolutes in this game. As I type this the CPU has made 2 poor sliding tackles, one resulting a penalty. Please don't say things are clear as day when they aren't and can be proven easily that they are not. It also does not matter how much footy we watch that makes us experts, it doesn't take a diehard soccer/football fan to realize how the fundamentals are missing in both PES and FIFA. At least FIFA gives us sliders as an outlet, and the more people underappreciate the use of them - the more it's going to fall by the wayside and we'll be left with no good soccer game.

[half-fast]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

I actually gave up on sliders for now, Matt10. I was using the community sliders you posted, and I have nothing but good things to say about the effort you put in. I've been using your sliders for a couple years now and theyve been great. With the community sliders the way they are, I saw too many weird things like my players running into eachother too often, as well as interference on by both teams(running into eachother too often). It made some plays and aspects superior to the vanilla game, but some worse and just not tolerable for me anymore. I reset my game to pretty much factory sliders to just play the game the way it was intended to be. This is the first year I find sliders interfering with the gameplay as much as helping.

With that said, I think I may go back to using your old sliders before you and orion started the community sliders. For me, you had it closer then.

And that brings me to my next point - how personal difficulty settings are in these games. People play in different ways and what works for some people might not work for others. I prefer your old sliders.

[Khaldun]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

Look, I know what you're saying, but this is the most misguided post that I can think of. I don't mean that in a mean way - but you're blatantly suggesting some areas that the community sliders have put in more hours than you can think of in getting it to play right.

Let me be clear: I'm using your sliders. I love them, commend the effort you and Orion have put in and will continue to follow your work for years to come. But what I am also saying is that this game's code is so inherently broken that even with your contributions CPU players still fail to react even remotely realistically, and are in most cases capable of playing without consequence.

52/53 speed - drop it to 50/53, if you have it higher for the user - they not only will be able to consistently beat the CPU - they will leave them in the dust. This is why we have it on 50/53, it's enough that the CPU's defensive reactions are in tune with what is going on, but not so much they abandon early and run around with their heads cut off.

The speed allotment I received from your community sliders. You currently have speed at 52/53 for legendary difficulty so I was operating off that base. I was merely stating that dropping the CPU acceleration rating further from 49 to 47 renders the CPU "more human" while simultaneously placing a greater emphasis on individual players ratings. In short, it levels the playing field between CPU and human reactions:

- The arbitrary speed burst that allows their players to immediately run down attackers upon being beat and knock them off ball regardless of individual ratings are less.

- The CPU's uncanny ability to time slide tackles is less

- The CPU's ability to get to loose balls before user players despite bing out of position is less

- With less ability to dribble freely, CPU players play more crosses, full field switches, through balls, etc.

- User players have an increased ability to play through balls

- User ability to dispossess the CPU is less

- User ability to dominate possession against lesser quality teams is increased as individual player ratings become more emphasized.

Etc.

The marking @100 will literally make your teammates play worse. They will overly mark players that can simply run 2 inches in front of them and will become tiki taka. Marking higher incorporates more ADD - attention deficit defending - they want to mark EVERYONE, and will be consistently out of position.

While generally I'd agree, I've tried everything from your own suggestions, to 63, 68, 75 and so on. I've decided that I'd rather my teammates over mark than not mark at all. Watching my players float around the box with attackers directly in front of them with the ball at their feet without reacting is one of the most infuriating experiences I have with this title.

Corralling attackers into teammates that do not react aggressively, no matter the context or tactics employed, is equally infuriating. In my experience, using tactical defending with marking at 100 makes for a more realistic representation of the physical play you see in European football.

The Chelsea vs. PSG tie this week of the UCL was one of the more compelling matches this season. Very intense physically and tactically with magnificent performances all around. Trying to simulate similar intensity in this title from your teammates is practically impossible with marking at 57/58, or 52/52. They play too leisurely, disallowing you from pressing or possessing appropriately.

With all that, I agree with you completely about the need to rework the ratings system - but for now, sliders can do just fine. Is it ideal? Absolutely not.

I'm simply suggesting to those that value a "sim" experience to go through their rosters and do a complete rework of the numbers as attribute values are completely whacky across the board. Ligue 1 and Serie A are a joke, La Liga and Bundesliga are criminally underrated, etc. Editing rosters for offline/career mode goes a long way in correcting some of the more obvious errors/inaccuracies in the title.

Perhaps in the future a few of the community can get together and create a community roster ala The Show, sourcing whoscored or some other statistical database. But for now, unless you're a FUT or online player, I'd definitely recommend making your own edits for the time being.

However, there are no absolutes in this game. As I type this the CPU has made 2 poor sliding tackles, one resulting a penalty. Please don't say things are clear as day when they aren't and can be proven easily that they are not.

With respect, I think most people would agree that the CPU tackling in this game can be a bit ridiculous.

It also does not matter how much footy we watch that makes us experts, it doesn't take a diehard soccer/football fan to realize how the fundamentals are missing in both PES and FIFA. At least FIFA gives us sliders as an outlet, and the more people underappreciate the use of them - the more it's going to fall by the wayside and we'll be left with no good soccer game.

I want to reiterate that i appreciate your efforts and will continue to use your sliders, was simply making a few suggestions.

[SpHSpH]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

A few things ...

(1) SPEED is currently listed as 52HUM/53CPU on the main slider thread ... so the CPU is seeing the one point "bonus" for speed. And ACCELERATION is currently listed at 50HUM/49CPU on the main slider thread ... so the HUM is seeing the one point "bonus" for acceleration.

(2) The slider discussion - while relevant - would be better suited in the slider thread (a very active thread with lots of quality contributors) ... I would prefer to keep this thread more in line with thoughts about the CPU tackling.

(3) And more importantly ... I would simply like to kick some ideas around about what I (and possibly many others) could try differently with my game play in an effort to overcome or negate the challenge of attacking the CPU.

I know that lots of veteran (and new) players are using the OS Sliders ... and many of those players are not having the same issues that I am struggling with. This means that there is some way to succeed - even for people who are playing with the OS Sliders / World Class / All-Manual - I would like to know how I can work to achieve some of that success.

There are lots of things that are giving me trouble with FIFA15 ... I have a whole series of "talking points" threads ... the OS community has historically been a valuable resource for flushing out ideas (especially since the concept of an "instruction manual" has gone the way of the rotary phone).

[Matt10]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

I actually gave up on sliders for now, Matt10. I was using the community sliders you posted, and I have nothing but good things to say about the effort you put in. I've been using your sliders for a couple years now and theyve been great. With the community sliders the way they are, I saw too many weird things like my players running into eachother too often, as well as interference on by both teams(running into eachother too often). It made some plays and aspects superior to the vanilla game, but some worse and just not tolerable for me anymore. I reset my game to pretty much factory sliders to just play the game the way it was intended to be. This is the first year I find sliders interfering with the gameplay as much as helping.

With that said, I think I may go back to using your old sliders before you and orion started the community sliders. For me, you had it closer then.

And that brings me to my next point - how personal difficulty settings are in these games. People play in different ways and what works for some people might not work for others. I prefer your old sliders.

The aim with sliders is always to ensure the fundamentals. FIFA by default, lacks fundamentals, primarily on defense, the offensive is usually a byproduct of how the defense is.

I too loved my old sliders, but the issues compounded from speed bursting at will resulting in charity goals, defensive line too high means your back line at some point will randomly burst forward out of position for no reason while defending the ball.

In a perfect FIFA world, I would rather not use sliders, but you make the game how you want it - and the attempts of late have been successful in achieving the fundamentals that I view the game that I played for so long IRL, and view on a weekly basis.

Let me be clear: I'm using your sliders. I love them, commend the effort you and Orion have put in and will continue to follow your work for years to come. But what I am also saying is that this game's code is so inherently broken that even with your contributions CPU players still fail to react even remotely realistically, and are in most cases capable of playing without consequence.

With respect, I think most people would agree that the CPU tackling in this game can be a bit ridiculous.


I want to reiterate that i appreciate your efforts and will continue to use your sliders, was simply making a few suggestions.

Khaldun - I owe you an apology for the tone of my post. It's a gut response when I see recommendations like before and I automatically assume that this is just another random poster that is going to mislead the community - look at the sliders thread, more of those pages are spent moderating the random group-thinks than researching and reporting findings.

The CPU is now at a point in which they do react better than ever, defensively. That was the number one goal of all of this. We wanted the charity goals to stop. I didn't want to use any player, one quick side step, and he's gone because the CB's decide to mark someone 20 yards away versus hauling over and addressing the man with the ball. That was step #1 - and the sprint helped with that. From there it was about balancing the other values to humanize the CPU.

I think the slide tackling is another byproduct of how you attack the CPU. I'll have a gameplay video up here for SPH so he can see how I approach my matches regarding that.

Thanks again - my apologies again for the outburst - I think the video will clear up a lot more than what words I can put together.

A few things ...

(1) SPEED is currently listed as 52HUM/53CPU on the main slider thread ... so the CPU is seeing the one point "bonus" for speed. And ACCELERATION is currently listed at 50HUM/49CPU on the main slider thread ... so the HUM is seeing the one point "bonus" for acceleration.

(2) The slider discussion - while relevant - would be better suited in the slider thread (a very active thread with lots of quality contributors) ... I would prefer to keep this thread more in line with thoughts about the CPU tackling.

(3) And more importantly ... I would simply like to kick some ideas around about what I (and possibly many others) could try differently with my game play in an effort to overcome or negate the challenge of attacking the CPU.

I know that lots of veteran (and new) players are using the OS Sliders ... and many of those players are not having the same issues that I am struggling with. This means that there is some way to succeed - even for people who are playing with the OS Sliders / World Class / All-Manual - I would like to know how I can work to achieve some of that success.

There are lots of things that are giving me trouble with FIFA15 ... I have a whole series of "talking points" threads ... the OS community has historically been a valuable resource for flushing out ideas (especially since the concept of an "instruction manual" has gone the way of the rotary phone).

I enjoy your talking points threads, to be perfectly honest. I also feel the need to help though. The video I'm about to post will help I believe. If not, at least it's great gameplay

[Matt10]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

Here's the video, SPH:

<iframe width="750" height="422" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/esEnfyklkmQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[half-fast]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

The aim with sliders is always to ensure the fundamentals. FIFA by default, lacks fundamentals, primarily on defense, the offensive is usually a byproduct of how the defense is.

I too loved my old sliders, but the issues compounded from speed bursting at will resulting in charity goals, defensive line too high means your back line at some point will randomly burst forward out of position for no reason while defending the ball.

In a perfect FIFA world, I would rather not use sliders, but you make the game how you want it - and the attempts of late have been successful in achieving the fundamentals that I view the game that I played for so long IRL, and view on a weekly basis.

I will give the sliders another try. I'll record some more games to make sure I have a better view of what's happening.

[Coach P]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

Just learn to time it. You know the slide tackle is coming, so just lay off RT and change directions. CPU goes flying in the wrong direction and you're on the break!

[SpHSpH]

Re: Can we talk about the CPU (slide) tackling?

And bringing this back again ...

I have been trying to be more thoughtful about which way my player is facing - especially when I am in the attacking third. I am trying to turn away from goal, I am trying to "only move when necessary", I am trying to use the L-Stick as little as possible ...

... this has been helpful. However - my attacking is still toothless - I eventually have to make an effort to go at the goal - and the CPU just waits me out until I turn to take a shot.

It might be less about the tackles now ... and more about my general approach to offense in the attacking third. That sounds like something that should probably get its own "Talking Points" thread ... so maybe I should get to assembling my thoughts on that topic ...

Oh ... and it is finished from Selhurst Park ... you can put a fork in City ... they are most certainly done ...