PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

[papinho81]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Have you guys seen any straight red card either from the user or the cpu?
I do think refs are ok (good?) with calling fouls but they are terrible at giving red cards. They simply don't give any reds and instead always give yellows when you commit or endure an aggression (there is no other words when your players is tackle from behind). It is the same thing when you or cpu commit a foul with the last defender. Sadly this is a wrong implementation of the rules of this game and it removes all the risk of stopping a player that goes alone on goal direction (Yeah let's just kill that boy I will only get a yellow...).

I had a straight red card yesterday after attempting a "let's just stop that man by any means" in last defender position. So these rule might finally be correctly implemented in the game.

[nunogomes]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

I am playing on manual shot/pass, -1 speed, Professional difficulty.
I have a lot of trouble with player reaction. I press the shot or pass button and it feels like they wait to kick it. Like they let the ball bounce or take an extra touch instead of a one touch pass.

It seems like my players just have a slower reaction to ball. When there is a loose ball, sometimes my player just jogs for it til the cpu gets it, then starts sprinting. Today i was scored on in the 85th minute from a cross because my defender just didnt jump for the ball. the power ball was maxed, but he just stood there and gave the attacker a free header, i couldnt even move him in goal side position. Does PES have ai scripting like fifa? the entire series ahead of it had the feeling of "you are getting scored on, so you might as well throw the controller now". it makes me feel like i have zero control, i couldnt even foul the winger. and believe me i tried.

I also struggle with the ball at my feet. The cpu runs up and takes it from me with zero effort. i can seem to be able to "shield" or protect the ball. Sprinting results in the cpu running faster and taking it, and controlling it results in them running around me and taking it. also i cant do skill moves to safe my life.

AI is blatantly faster than i am. Break aways are ended before i even get to the box. I had a newly subbed on already sprinting theo walcott outran by laurent koscielny on a thru ball.

Is there a way to send players on a run? I am frustrated when i see a player making a diagonal then stop while im charge the pass power. i give the ball away so much that way.

Last thing, Is there a way to "control" your first touch? It feels so heavy, even a soft pass, my player has to "chase" his first touch.

I really need a tutorial.

I will try to help in a few of your points:

About the reaction: i think it´s related to the -1 game speed you are using and of course, you also have to adjust to something very present in the game, inertia. But try to play in normal speed for a bit, get used to it and then if you want, change it to -1.

To keep possession: you can shield the ball (R1 without moving the left stick), but you can also press R2 to face the goal and get your ball really close to your feet. Try it while you have the ball on your defense and get used to R2.

Skill moves (select Auto-Feint in the controller settings) works like this:
Move the Right-Stick in any direction, this will "pre-load" or "charge" the feint. Then, move the Left-Stick to the direction where you want your player to FINISH the feint. Believe me, it works perfectly.

To send players on a run, just click the Right Stick down while aiming with your the player you are controlling. You can have full control of the direction where the runner goes if you change the setting Teamate Control to manual.

The first touch mechanic, i haven´t fully understant it honestly... right now, i think it´s a ver simple thing like directing the way where you receive the pass, this was always present, can´t understand the fuss Konami did about this....

[Matt10]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Here's another video of my thoughts of the PES 17 demo, in regards to whether or not ball physics - as great as they are - will be enough to make PES 17 a great game. How far can ball physics go, if players end up playing like robots?

<iframe width="750" height="422" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZfK-SXZYAlE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[BL8001]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

And here is where we run into the problem with all sports games.

AI

Think about it, has any AI been created that is equal to Human Intelligence?

Kasparov beat Deep Blue.

And we expect any of these game developers to make a super smart AI?

I am not letting them off the hook, what I mean is this, you have AI, then you have difficulty levels.

Sadly these two things fight one another. EA is notoriously unbalanced with how their difficulty affects AI because they are so boost and dare I say it? script happy in regards to how they control the AI as you go from beginner to legendary.

On the easiest level in EA games the AI is helping you. As you progress through the difficulty the balance swings to suddenly your AI controlled teammates become idiots as the CPU gets more frenetic.

Konami does a similar method, all sports games use this AI method to varying degrees.

Konami is more level headed (IMO) because they DO NOT MESS WITH YOUR TEAM when they raise difficulty.

Now Matt, where you are on point but your experiment is flawed is because you are using Super Star difficulty. And yes I know, I know, lower levels do not provide enough challenge, I get it. But if you want to analyze AI you cannot do it on upper difficulties. It just doesn't work with the way sports AI is done nowadays.

In order to see how it behaves unbuffed you sadly have to stay on whatever level is the baseline.

In FIFA that is most likely Pro and in PES that is PRO.

I am not saying you have to play on this difficulty, but you have to understand and you know this, you have to understand that as you raise the difficulty along come the boosts to AI.

If the AI would become more intelligent as you progressed through difficulty levels we would have game of the year no matter what sports game it was.

Instead they just rely on the same old tired tropes of, cpu gets to the ball faster, cpu runs faster, cpu passes better, cpu shoots better, etc

It's just a ratings buff, not an intelligence buff.

[nunogomes]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Here's another video of my thoughts of the PES 17 demo, in regards to whether or not ball physics - as great as they are - will be enough to make PES 17 a great game. How far can ball physics go, if players end up playing like robots?

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZfK-SXZYAlE" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="422" width="750"></iframe>

Im not with you in some points on this one Matt. For example:

We are very far from a game where CPU "Big Team" realizes it´s playing a small team and changes the tactic acordingly. No game past or present (and dare i say near future) had/has this feature and PES 17 is no exception.

You say, these are professional athletes, they don´t need to be told every step by tactics... i see your point of course, but again, we are very far from "that" game.

I agree with you when you say PES community sees a flaw and always attributes it to tactics or form arrows and says this is easy to fix. But, it´s the same with sliders in FIFA. We had for two years straight 2 threads with FIFA sliders with almost 1000 pages and in the end, i think we would all agree the game is only marginally better than default. PES is the same, the game will be better with edited tactics but it won´t make the CPU change tactics based on the opponent, for example.

I see this video more as a "generic AI problems in football games" and not so much as PES specific problems video (hope im making myself clear! ).

Oh, and watch the stats, Superstar may put Barça players running around chasing the ball like crazy and giving you space, BUT... you had 1 shot the entire game (not even on target), so... that looks like a pretty "difficult difficulty".

Keep those videos coming!

[tilburylfc]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

I will try to help in a few of your points:

About the reaction: i think it´s related to the -1 game speed you are using and of course, you also have to adjust to something very present in the game, inertia. But try to play in normal speed for a bit, get used to it and then if you want, change it to -1.

To keep possession: you can shield the ball (R1 without moving the left stick), but you can also press R2 to face the goal and get your ball really close to your feet. Try it while you have the ball on your defense and get used to R2.

Skill moves (select Auto-Feint in the controller settings) works like this:
Move the Right-Stick in any direction, this will "pre-load" or "charge" the feint. Then, move the Left-Stick to the direction where you want your player to FINISH the feint. Believe me, it works perfectly.

To send players on a run, just click the Right Stick down while aiming with your the player you are controlling. You can have full control of the direction where the runner goes if you change the setting Teamate Control to manual.

The first touch mechanic, i haven´t fully understant it honestly... right now, i think it´s a ver simple thing like directing the way where you receive the pass, this was always present, can´t understand the fuss Konami did about this....

Thanks, this has definitely helped my gameplay.

I figured out my biggest problem, manual passing. My ai teammates just plain and simple play different. When I pass, it takes my player longer to realise the ball is passed to him than it takes the defender to react to the incoming pass. So the cpu gets a step or two advantage. I switched to semi assisted passing and have no issues.

Once I can fully control team tactics, I'm hoping I can fix the issue of defenders just running back, instead of actually marking forwards and mids during transition from off to Def.

Most infuriating thing is the almost inevitable "screw you we are scoring." nuer punched the f'ing ball into his own net on an unchallenged cross. Every match someone runs into a teammate or clears into the forwards face to setup the perfect chance to tie or win he game.

[Gnemi]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Here's another video of my thoughts of the PES 17 demo, in regards to whether or not ball physics - as great as they are - will be enough to make PES 17 a great game. How far can ball physics go, if players end up playing like robots?

<iframe width="750" height="422" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZfK-SXZYAlE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It's funny, I was just getting ready to make a post about how wrong I was with regards to Barcelona.

I had mentioned that it was too easy to nick the ball of them. I'm not even sure, in retrospect, what was different about that particular game. I just played Arse - Barca about 10 times, with Level 1 assist, Superstar, -2 speed.

It was as you described, Barca pressed for the entire 90. Their pressure is truly obnoxious. I mean, it'd be one thing if I were playing as Derby and simply didn't have the class to make them pay the price for applying too much pressure. When Barca makes mistakes with pressure, whether it's a badly timed / missed tackle or double/triple teaming the press, Arsenal should have plenty of ability to punish Barca. In the demo with PES 17, I'm struggling to do that. Instead, it seems Barca can apply 100% intensity with their press and with relative impunity.

Early days and maybe I'll figure out some way of countering that, but it's an issue. And it looks ridiculous.

With all that said, at least with PES, I get the impression that they will play a LOT differently than, say, Burnley. I doubt the same will be true in FIFA.

[Matt10]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

And here is where we run into the problem with all sports games.

AI

Think about it, has any AI been created that is equal to Human Intelligence?

Kasparov beat Deep Blue.

And we expect any of these game developers to make a super smart AI?

I am not letting them off the hook, what I mean is this, you have AI, then you have difficulty levels.

Sadly these two things fight one another. EA is notoriously unbalanced with how their difficulty affects AI because they are so boost and dare I say it? script happy in regards to how they control the AI as you go from beginner to legendary.

On the easiest level in EA games the AI is helping you. As you progress through the difficulty the balance swings to suddenly your AI controlled teammates become idiots as the CPU gets more frenetic.

Konami does a similar method, all sports games use this AI method to varying degrees.

Konami is more level headed (IMO) because they DO NOT MESS WITH YOUR TEAM when they raise difficulty.

Now Matt, where you are on point but your experiment is flawed is because you are using Super Star difficulty. And yes I know, I know, lower levels do not provide enough challenge, I get it. But if you want to analyze AI you cannot do it on upper difficulties. It just doesn't work with the way sports AI is done nowadays.

In order to see how it behaves unbuffed you sadly have to stay on whatever level is the baseline.

In FIFA that is most likely Pro and in PES that is PRO.

I am not saying you have to play on this difficulty, but you have to understand and you know this, you have to understand that as you raise the difficulty along come the boosts to AI.

If the AI would become more intelligent as you progressed through difficulty levels we would have game of the year no matter what sports game it was.

Instead they just rely on the same old tired tropes of, cpu gets to the ball faster, cpu runs faster, cpu passes better, cpu shoots better, etc

It's just a ratings buff, not an intelligence buff.

Good post, man - definitely agree with you in regards to the progression of difficulty vs actual AI. I was actually playing on Top Player in the video, I should've mentioned that :o . You've seen my other streams (and my posts on this thread), will most likely see how Professional goes first, then test other difficulties. Regarding this video, it's to a broad audience - which is why I do not go into the depths as I usually do. What I plan on doing is releasing another video that goes more in depth - so as to compliment this one. As the channel starts to get a wide audience, and their level of understanding realism in sports games varies, I will be doing more "two-part" videos to compliment. I won't be doing my due dilligence if I do not use the difficulties that are more "global" in order to provide a relatable comparison. If I did a professional difficulty video, and discussed the shortcomings/advantages, then it would make sense to make the next video with the same template - if that makes sense.

[phillyfan23]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

I wrote earlier from my first impressions that the cpu ai was largely unchanged and rarely crosses the ball....im glad to say i am so so WRONG. They cross at the right times and are varied in attack. The demo has really grown on me and i play on -2 speed with all manual controls top player. Exciting stuff. On -1, i can manipulate the cpu because of the higjer responsiveness even with average center midfielders. On -2 speed, you have to take your time and rely on passingg more than stick skills which is great, and at this level, the top dribblers stand out even more IMO.

Whats the biggest margin of victory for everyone here playing top player/superstar? 2-0? 3-0? Its tough to score


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nunogomes]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

It's funny, I was just getting ready to make a post about how wrong I was with regards to Barcelona.

I had mentioned that it was too easy to nick the ball of them. I'm not even sure, in retrospect, what was different about that particular game. I just played Arse - Barca about 10 times, with Level 1 assist, Superstar, -2 speed.

It was as you described, Barca pressed for the entire 90. Their pressure is truly obnoxious. I mean, it'd be one thing if I were playing as Derby and simply didn't have the class to make them pay the price for applying too much pressure. When Barca makes mistakes with pressure, whether it's a badly timed / missed tackle or double/triple teaming the press, Arsenal should have plenty of ability to punish Barca. In the demo with PES 17, I'm struggling to do that. Instead, it seems Barca can apply 100% intensity with their press and with relative impunity.

Early days and maybe I'll figure out some way of countering that, but it's an issue. And it looks ridiculous.

With all that said, at least with PES, I get the impression that they will play a LOT differently than, say, Burnley. I doubt the same will be true in FIFA.

This (the bold part) didn´t really happened the last few times those teams met...

Just messing around with Arsenal fans!

Now, to counter this full out suicide press i can only think of spreading the team, play very wide so they can´t cover so much ground.

Also, LWF and RWF and not LFM or RMF should be better to counter this. In Matt´s video, for example, Corinthians plays very through the middle, this is the worst against a team that presses in that crazy way Barça does on PES.

[Gnemi]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

I think what Matt is generally pointing out is that, tactics aside, Barca have been programmed to play...weird.

They seem like a herd of 12 year-olds who've been told to press or snipers in the stadium will shoot them. As a result, it just stops looking like football. I especially think it's odd when they constantly double, triple team, made worse because human teammates don't find the gaps and spaces left by Barca's silly aggression. It just looks cartoonish.

[Gnemi]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

This (the bold part) didn´t really happened the last few times those teams met...

Just messing around with Arsenal fans!

Now, to counter this full out suicide press i can only think of spreading the team, play very wide so they can´t cover so much ground.

Also, LWF and RWF and not LFM or RMF should be better to counter this. In Matt´s video, for example, Corinthians plays very through the middle, this is the worst against a team that presses in that crazy way Barça does on PES.

Yeah, I know what you're getting at, but the way Barca apply suicidal pressure in the demo, *any* professional club should be able to counter because the pressure is fundamentally counterintuitive and would only be possible if Lance Armstrong was supplying Barca with his personal supply of PEDs.

[Matt10]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Im not with you in some points on this one Matt. For example:

We are very far from a game where CPU "Big Team" realizes it´s playing a small team and changes the tactic acordingly. No game past or present (and dare i say near future) had/has this feature and PES 17 is no exception.

You say, these are professional athletes, they don´t need to be told every step by tactics... i see your point of course, but again, we are very far from "that" game.

I agree with you when you say PES community sees a flaw and always attributes it to tactics or form arrows and says this is easy to fix. But, it´s the same with sliders in FIFA. We had for two years straight 2 threads with FIFA sliders with almost 1000 pages and in the end, i think we would all agree the game is only marginally better than default. PES is the same, the game will be better with edited tactics but it won´t make the CPU change tactics based on the opponent, for example.

I see this video more as a "generic AI problems in football games" and not so much as PES specific problems video (hope im making myself clear! ).

Oh, and watch the stats, Superstar may put Barça players running around chasing the ball like crazy and giving you space, BUT... you had 1 shot the entire game (not even on target), so... that looks like a pretty "difficult difficulty".

Keep those videos coming!

Hi Nuno!

Agree with you regarding FIFA, it was especially frustrating receiving as many gameplay updates that kept us further and further away from the proper base.

I completely understand what you mean about generic AI problems...to a point. Instead of looking at FIFA v PES, let's look at the older titles such as early as PES 2011. Specifically, and what will be in the next video, look at player rating/values as an indicator to what tactical adherence has created in the past and present. As the "founder" of global editing in PES, I can't help but look into the player ratings as being the culprit for what we see now.

There are some key player ratings that are no longer in the current PES, that made up the proper composition of a player - that actually allowed the players to vary their adherence to tactics, or overall teamwork. You guessed it, that value was "Teamwork" (there was also "Chemistry" in previous games).

Look here for Messi in PES 16 - http://www.pesmaster.com/l-messi/pes-2016/player/7511/

- No mention of "Teamwork", or "Chemistry"

Instead we have Attack/Defense Prowess:

Attacking Prowess:
The Ability to be involved with goal scoring chances (appropriate positioning when attacking, fast reactions to loose balls, getting into the right places for crosses).

Defensive Prowess:
The ability of defending by predicting the pattern of play. It includes how good his reactions are based on intelligent reading of the game when defending, rather than his physical reactions.

Now here Messi from PES PES 13 - http://www.pesmaster.com/messi/pes-2013/player/7511/

- Teamwork value of 83

To go into it deeper, see here, the "NexGen Pes Stats" - http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/vi...p?f=11&t=35306

And the "Old-Gen Stats" - http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/vi...p?f=11&t=27818

Teamwork

Teamwork relates to supportive off the ball movement. A player with high Teamwork (Xavi, for example) supports their teammates by moving around the field, making themselves available for potentional passes. Additionally, in the case of defenders, Teamwork effects a player's ability to work with his defensive teammates as a unit.

Teamwork is not, despite previous beliefs, at all related to how good of a playmaker a player is.

So instead, the NexGen PES Stats have consolidated the likes of Teamwork, Menality, Tenacity, Chemistry, etc - into the value of "Prowess". Attacking/Defensive Prowess is the reason we are getting the game the way it is in this current gen. There is no more truly identifiable stat that controls the adherence level to the tactics, or even the nature of a game is played. It's all "under the hood" now.

One last point, the Attack/Defense ratings of old, is different than the Attack/Defense Prowess. I still highly believe the Prowess values are purely cosmetic, or an addition/subtraction, of the OVR value. The best way you can test this is load up PES 13 (or older), lower Attack and raise Defense. Play a ML, finish the match, go in and see the CPU scores. In PES 13 (or older) you will see very low scoring, in PES 16 you will see them completely untouched, there will be a range of scores.

Thanks again for watching the video, Nuno - I love your input, man. Always have. My mind sometimes thinks too fast for my mouth/keyboard, so it helps me regroup my thoughts when we all get into these discussions.

[PAPERNUT]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

I just wonder how much the shortened demo time may have some effect on a lot of these issues you guys are mentioning. If it has any...Guess we will know more in a week.

[nunogomes]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Yeah, I know what you're getting at, but the way Barca apply suicidal pressure in the demo, *any* professional club should be able to counter because the pressure is fundamentally counterintuitive and would only be possible if Lance Armstrong was supplying Barca with his personal supply of PEDs.

I wish Lance Armstrong would suplly Barça in PES, because maybe that would remove the thing that´s annoying me the most playing against Barça (it´s no the pressure): Messi or Suarez are subbed waaaaay too many times.

They probably tire out quickly because of pressure and i hate that honestly. It´s super rare to see Messi or Suarez subbed in Barça, but in PES i see it too frequently to my liking...

Hi Nuno!

Agree with you regarding FIFA, it was especially frustrating receiving as many gameplay updates that kept us further and further away from the proper base.

I completely understand what you mean about generic AI problems...to a point. Instead of looking at FIFA v PES, let's look at the older titles such as early as PES 2011. Specifically, and what will be in the next video, look at player rating/values as an indicator to what tactical adherence has created in the past and present. As the "founder" of global editing in PES, I can't help but look into the player ratings as being the culprit for what we see now.

There are some key player ratings that are no longer in the current PES, that made up the proper composition of a player - that actually allowed the players to vary their adherence to tactics, or overall teamwork. You guessed it, that value was "Teamwork" (there was also "Chemistry" in previous games).

Look here for Messi in PES 16 - http://www.pesmaster.com/l-messi/pes-2016/player/7511/

- No mention of "Teamwork", or "Chemistry"

Instead we have Attack/Defense Prowess:



Now here Messi from PES PES 13 - http://www.pesmaster.com/messi/pes-2013/player/7511/

- Teamwork value of 83

To go into it deeper, see here, the "NexGen Pes Stats" - http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/vi...p?f=11&t=35306

And the "Old-Gen Stats" - http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/vi...p?f=11&t=27818



So instead, the NexGen PES Stats have consolidated the likes of Teamwork, Menality, Tenacity, Chemistry, etc - into the value of "Prowess". Attacking/Defensive Prowess is the reason we are getting the game the way it is in this current gen. There is no more truly identifiable stat that controls the adherence level to the tactics, or even the nature of a game is played. It's all "under the hood" now.

One last point, the Attack/Defense ratings of old, is different than the Attack/Defense Prowess. I still highly believe the Prowess values are purely cosmetic, or an addition/subtraction, of the OVR value. The best way you can test this is load up PES 13 (or older), lower Attack and raise Defense. Play a ML, finish the match, go in and see the CPU scores. In PES 13 (or older) you will see very low scoring, in PES 16 you will see them completely untouched, there will be a range of scores.

Thanks again for watching the video, Nuno - I love your input, man. Always have. My mind sometimes thinks too fast for my mouth/keyboard, so it helps me regroup my thoughts when we all get into these discussions.

Yeah, i remember that teamwork value! Sorry it´s gone, it would be useful...

Right know i think that in Barça´s case, Konami over did things! They tried to show it like "Hey look! Look how we made Barça play like Barça", except they over did it, and now it doesn´t look like Barça, it looks like a Barça on steroids...