Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Money isn't the only problem but its a catch 22.

In large swaths of the country soccer isn't viewed as a "cool" sport to play. U10 youth soccer is popular yes, but right around middle school kids move into primarily basketball or football. Its viewed as a graduation or progression into a better sport.

Spoiler

Anecdote that illustrates it, during the summer my town has a youth soccer program. One of my friends has a 12 year old son who played in it and did well as a striker. The father's response to that was literally "oh yeah he'll make a good wide receiver when he gets to high school"

Travel anywhere across the country and you will see teens playing pickup basketball. Even with football you see kids find a open area and make it a playing field by things like "the street is out of bounds, the third light post is the end zone." You see that with soccer in some areas, but not widespread like the major American sports.

The interest isn't there in part because a lack of funding.

The funding isn't there in part because a lack of interest.

[Brahvocado]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Honestly that whole soccer isn't cool thing is a pretty old take, it's definitely not a thing the way it used to be in the 90s/2000s. Soccer has grown a whole lot especially in the last 10 years, and whether people want to admit it or not, football participation at the youth level has gone down dramatically and is generally trending downward.

The problem with youth soccer funding isn't a lack of interest anymore, its that we don't have the right kind of systems in place to provide a pipeline for youth players to work towards MLS academies the way they have in Europe. Grassroots soccer in Europe is funded from the top, and in some areas even by the government. The US does not have any of that, and the main pipelines into MLS academies are through club soccer, which is crazy expensive.

Some clubs do offer scholarships, but even then it is still expensive. Also, clubs don't scout outside of club leagues, so that kid who is playing AYSO but is a flight 1/ECNL level player, will just end up playing another sport because he has no pathway up from rec soccer. Even at the club level, there are players that should be ODP but don't have the connections to make that happen, so they fly under the radar.

There is such a massive disconnect in youth soccer at basically every stage, organization and funding are what really holds the whole system back so much.

[dubcity]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Soccer's comparative relevancy and popularity vs other sports is 100% the reason why America doesn't have a better national team. It's not about money or politics. If there were enough young athletes who were passionate and driven to choose that path we would be more relevant globally. "Pay to play" and "it's a rich person's sport" would not be applicable. To me those opinions come mostly from people who themselves are big soccer fans, who think the MLS is popular, etc. That's just not reality to me. There isn't this huge and diverse crop of young athletes who think soccer is the path to fun, fame, money, etc, but are somehow being told "nope, you're not allowed to do that. You must play basketball or football instead." Soccer just doesn't have the cultural footprint.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Honestly that whole soccer isn't cool thing is a pretty old take, it's definitely not a thing the way it used to be in the 90s/2000s. Soccer has grown a whole lot especially in the last 10 years, and whether people want to admit it or not, football participation at the youth level has gone down dramatically and is generally trending downward.

Strong disagree here. The elite American athletes aren't going into soccer.

Its not an automatic win for US soccer that youth football is declining. These kids aren't going to naturally choose soccer instead. If US Soccer is counting on that happening they will be in for a disappointment.

None of the rest of what you say is wrong, but if an elite athlete wants to pursue soccer he is probably not going to fly under the radar.

Now for the nuance, because I think when we dig deep enough we should agree more than not. When I say our elite athletes don't pursue soccer I'm not making that ignorant "omg if LeBron James played soccer he would totally dominate because he stronk and go brr."

One of the reasons Americans aren't drawn to soccer is picture Messi. He looks like an average dude. LeBron James is not an average dude. Why Americans prefer sports that have guys looking like comic book superheroes is another topic, but I think its largely true.

Basketball is 60% athleticism, 40% skill. Soccer is 60% skill, 40% athleticism (and that may sell the skill requirement short). I'm making these numbers up but it should illustrate the point. To become a truly top tier soccer player requires a crazy amount of commitment, far more than basketball. Steph Curry and his shooting habits growing up is an extreme in basketball, but for soccer it would be closer to the baseline required. The point I'm trying to unearth is that a teenage athlete can play basketball and football and commit 50% to each until like his junior year where he decides which to dedicate himself to. If the same kid tries to do a 50/50 split with soccer and basketball, I think he eliminated himself from becoming a top flight soccer player.

Now to tie that into the obstacles you brought up and the systems and organizational infrastructure not being present in the US. Its not present because there is not enough demand for it to be. Because on top of the money obstacle, soccer is an all-in endeavor. And why go all in on soccer when there are other options?

That infrastructure is present in other countries because soccer is ingrained in their culture.

So yes, our best athletes don't choose soccer. And yes, we are hampered by the lack of infrastructure and systems to create top tier players. And the reasons overlap. The sport is not a part of our culture and it is such a skill driven sport that it requires a crazy level of commitment. And our top athletes don't choose it because other sports like basketball require less of a commitment and are more a part of our culture.

It all ties in like a circle. Hell if I know how to break that circle. Would require multiple unlikely events happening within a small window I think.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Soccer's comparative relevancy and popularity vs other sports is 100% the reason why America doesn't have a better national team. It's not about money or politics. If there were enough young athletes who were passionate and driven to choose that path we would be more relevant globally. "Pay to play" and "it's a rich person's sport" would not be applicable. To me those opinions come mostly from people who themselves are big soccer fans, who think the MLS is popular, etc. That's just not reality to me. There isn't this huge and diverse crop of young athletes who think soccer is the path to fun, fame, money, etc, but are somehow being told "nope, you're not allowed to do that. You must play basketball or football instead." Soccer just doesn't have the cultural footprint.

There is a bit of a bubble perspective element going on.

[Suntan Superman]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

eh, nvm, not worth the energy. Apologies.

[Suntan Superman]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Apparently contract talks with Gregg Berhalter are ongoing, but he does have some interest from clubs, so for those who want Gregg gone might still get what they want.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Apparently contract talks with Gregg Berhalter are ongoing, but he does have some interest from clubs, so for those who want Gregg gone might still get what they want.

It is rather surprising that it seems whether he continues as USMNT manager will be up to him.

If talks on ongoing it means the US soccer federation wants to bring him back. I just hope its not a interested in bringing him back at the right price situation because if thats the mindset I think we are screwed either way lol

[KG]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Strong disagree here. The elite American athletes aren't going into soccer.

Its not an automatic win for US soccer that youth football is declining. These kids aren't going to naturally choose soccer instead. If US Soccer is counting on that happening they will be in for a disappointment.

None of the rest of what you say is wrong, but if an elite athlete wants to pursue soccer he is probably not going to fly under the radar.

Now for the nuance, because I think when we dig deep enough we should agree more than not. When I say our elite athletes don't pursue soccer I'm not making that ignorant "omg if LeBron James played soccer he would totally dominate because he stronk and go brr."

One of the reasons Americans aren't drawn to soccer is picture Messi. He looks like an average dude. LeBron James is not an average dude. Why Americans prefer sports that have guys looking like comic book superheroes is another topic, but I think its largely true.

Basketball is 60% athleticism, 40% skill. Soccer is 60% skill, 40% athleticism (and that may sell the skill requirement short). I'm making these numbers up but it should illustrate the point. To become a truly top tier soccer player requires a crazy amount of commitment, far more than basketball. Steph Curry and his shooting habits growing up is an extreme in basketball, but for soccer it would be closer to the baseline required. The point I'm trying to unearth is that a teenage athlete can play basketball and football and commit 50% to each until like his junior year where he decides which to dedicate himself to. If the same kid tries to do a 50/50 split with soccer and basketball, I think he eliminated himself from becoming a top flight soccer player.

Now to tie that into the obstacles you brought up and the systems and organizational infrastructure not being present in the US. Its not present because there is not enough demand for it to be. Because on top of the money obstacle, soccer is an all-in endeavor. And why go all in on soccer when there are other options?

That infrastructure is present in other countries because soccer is ingrained in their culture.

So yes, our best athletes don't choose soccer. And yes, we are hampered by the lack of infrastructure and systems to create top tier players. And the reasons overlap. The sport is not a part of our culture and it is such a skill driven sport that it requires a crazy level of commitment. And our top athletes don't choose it because other sports like basketball require less of a commitment and are more a part of our culture.

It all ties in like a circle. Hell if I know how to break that circle. Would require multiple unlikely events happening within a small window I think.

What sucks for all sports nowadays at the youth level is the specialization. We grew up playing every sport… soccer, football, basketball, and even baseball. Nowadays a lot of these kids like you said are being pushed towards “pick a sport”. Even when I got to HS my football coach wouldn’t let me play soccer (it was in the fall back then for some dumb reason) but I played basketball in the winter/spring/summer. Looking back and not knowing I’d tap out at 6’ I would def do things differently ha.

It sucks because if & when they fail (since most kids don’t make it professionally) they have no other athletic skills/background to fall on. You can play basketball in a lot of countries professionally but fball your stuck here. There are sooooo many professional soccer leagues to make it in.

I think a lot of short term hope resides in dual nationals that we can get to commit early or those dual nationals that aren’t good enough to play for their home nation


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[ggsimmonds]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

What sucks for all sports nowadays at the youth level is the specialization. We grew up playing every sport… soccer, football, basketball, and even baseball. Nowadays a lot of these kids like you said are being pushed towards “pick a sport”. Even when I got to HS my football coach wouldn’t let me play soccer (it was in the fall back then for some dumb reason) but I played basketball in the winter/spring/summer. Looking back and not knowing I’d tap out at 6’ I would def do things differently ha.

It sucks because if & when they fail (since most kids don’t make it professionally) they have no other athletic skills/background to fall on. You can play basketball in a lot of countries professionally but fball your stuck here. There are sooooo many professional soccer leagues to make it in.

I think a lot of short term hope resides in dual nationals that we can get to commit early or those dual nationals that aren’t good enough to play for their home nation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Absolutely. Berhalter is like a college coach. Okay maybe he is not the best Xs and Os coach but he did a hell of a job on the recruiting trail getting those dual nationals on board.

Long term we would need to open up the pipeline for kids who weren't born into soccer like Pulisic and kids who aren't dual citizens or military brats. What makes it doubly hard is that pipe needs to be opened from both sides.

Your story is made worse because of the times I heard college coaches mention they love recruiting football players who have a soccer background though.

[Brahvocado]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Strong disagree here. The elite American athletes aren't going into soccer.

Its not an automatic win for US soccer that youth football is declining. These kids aren't going to naturally choose soccer instead. If US Soccer is counting on that happening they will be in for a disappointment.

None of the rest of what you say is wrong, but if an elite athlete wants to pursue soccer he is probably not going to fly under the radar.

Now for the nuance, because I think when we dig deep enough we should agree more than not. When I say our elite athletes don't pursue soccer I'm not making that ignorant "omg if LeBron James played soccer he would totally dominate because he stronk and go brr."

One of the reasons Americans aren't drawn to soccer is picture Messi. He looks like an average dude. LeBron James is not an average dude. Why Americans prefer sports that have guys looking like comic book superheroes is another topic, but I think its largely true.

Basketball is 60% athleticism, 40% skill. Soccer is 60% skill, 40% athleticism (and that may sell the skill requirement short). I'm making these numbers up but it should illustrate the point. To become a truly top tier soccer player requires a crazy amount of commitment, far more than basketball. Steph Curry and his shooting habits growing up is an extreme in basketball, but for soccer it would be closer to the baseline required. The point I'm trying to unearth is that a teenage athlete can play basketball and football and commit 50% to each until like his junior year where he decides which to dedicate himself to. If the same kid tries to do a 50/50 split with soccer and basketball, I think he eliminated himself from becoming a top flight soccer player.

Now to tie that into the obstacles you brought up and the systems and organizational infrastructure not being present in the US. Its not present because there is not enough demand for it to be. Because on top of the money obstacle, soccer is an all-in endeavor. And why go all in on soccer when there are other options?

That infrastructure is present in other countries because soccer is ingrained in their culture.

So yes, our best athletes don't choose soccer. And yes, we are hampered by the lack of infrastructure and systems to create top tier players. And the reasons overlap. The sport is not a part of our culture and it is such a skill driven sport that it requires a crazy level of commitment. And our top athletes don't choose it because other sports like basketball require less of a commitment and are more a part of our culture.

It all ties in like a circle. Hell if I know how to break that circle. Would require multiple unlikely events happening within a small window I think.

I don't really disagree with any particular point, though I never said football declining is a win for soccer, more that its an opportunity.

The reality is that basketball is to the US what soccer is to most of the rest of the world. It's the most popular sport by, at this point, a completely unsurmountable distance, and it is also the cheapest sport to get into. It has the clearest path to the top with the most options etc. Basketball is a behemoth and I don't really envision another sport catching it at any point.

I don't really feel biased though, I'm not suggesting these things just because I'm a soccer fan, I fully realize the MLS is not a big league in the US and all that (I don't even watch the MLS). I just think that soccer has an opportunity coming up that will be very easy to waste with the wrong people in charge (ie. the current people in charge lmao).

But yeah, soccer's issue in the US is complicated to solve because there are so many moving parts.

[Cod]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Strong disagree here. The elite American athletes aren't going into soccer.

Our (American) definition of elite athlete is different from the rest of the world. We have this infatuation that the best athlete usually starts with being the biggest, fastest, and strongest. In soccer, some of top players (imo) have the following breakdown:

• 5'10" 161 lbs
• 5'8" 150 lbs
• 5'6" 160 lbs
• 5'8" 141 lbs

In what American sport would anyone with any of those statures be considered an elite athlete? Typically, American sports tend to push kids away that aren't the biggest, fastest, strongest; whereas the beautiful game allows the most average of statures to succeed (and sometimes dominate). I realize there's a few one offs, like Deuce Vaughn at KSU, but those are very few far and between.

BTW, I'm not going to give names for the list above, but one can probably figure them out with a little research. Hint, all four are still playing in the WC Quarterfinals. And the last one on the list is my favorite to watch.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

I don't really disagree with any particular point, though I never said football declining is a win for soccer, more that its an opportunity.

The reality is that basketball is to the US what soccer is to most of the rest of the world. It's the most popular sport by, at this point, a completely unsurmountable distance, and it is also the cheapest sport to get into. It has the clearest path to the top with the most options etc. Basketball is a behemoth and I don't really envision another sport catching it at any point.

I don't really feel biased though, I'm not suggesting these things just because I'm a soccer fan, I fully realize the MLS is not a big league in the US and all that (I don't even watch the MLS). I just think that soccer has an opportunity coming up that will be very easy to waste with the wrong people in charge (ie. the current people in charge lmao).

But yeah, soccer's issue in the US is complicated to solve because there are so many moving parts.

The benefit that soccer has over basketball is that smaller reliance on athleticism and size.

There are a lot of kids like me out there. I grew up living basketball in south Baltimore, that was my sport and it served as a gateway sport into being a broader sports fan. I never had any shot at playing basketball at any high level. I stopped growing at 5'10" 165 lbs and can't jump particularly high. When I was playing the most I was probably better at it than 85-90% of the population but that is nowhere near close enough. But a lot of basketball skills can transfer nicely to soccer.

US soccer would gladly take some of those basketball leftovers. Traditionally they tend to go to football (that cliche that the best NFL TEs are always failed basketball players). And I fully agree that less football participation is an opportunity for soccer. But a lot of things will have to come together at the right time to maximize that opportunity.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Our (American) definition of elite athlete is different from the rest of the world. We have this infatuation that the best athlete usually starts with being the biggest, fastest, and strongest. In soccer, some of top players (imo) have the following breakdown:

• 5'10" 161 lbs
• 5'8" 150 lbs
• 5'6" 160 lbs
• 5'8" 141 lbs

In what American sport would anyone with any of those statures be considered an elite athlete? Typically, American sports tend to push kids away that aren't the biggest, fastest, strongest; whereas the beautiful game allows the most average of statures to succeed (and sometimes dominate). I realize there's a few one offs, like Deuce Vaughn at KSU, but those are very few far and between.

BTW, I'm not going to give names for the list above, but one can probably figure them out with a little research. Hint, all four are still playing in the WC Quarterfinals. And the last one on the list is my favorite to watch.

Did you plagiarize parts of this post from an article?

I swear this wording looks familiar lol

Anyway further down my post I mentioned its not about bigger or stronger.

(if you did see the same article that I did, he killed his own argument at the end btw)

[Cod]

Re: Official USMNT/USWNT Thread

Did you plagiarize parts of this post from an article?

I swear this wording looks familiar lol

Anyway further down my post I mentioned its not about bigger or stronger.

(if you did see the same article that I did, he killed his own argument at the end btw)

lol, I didn't read any article. I just looked up the statures of some of my favorite players and went from there. I'm interested in said article though. Got the link to share?