OS Roundtable: Looking at the Best Sports Game Tourney

[Steve_OS]

For this week's OS Roundtable the OS Staff take a retrospective look at the Best Sports Games Tournament. NFL 2K5's victory over College Hoops 2K8 in the final has sparked some heated debate.

Anyone who thinks College Hoops 2K8 will have the same lasting power as Mike Tyson's Punchout, Tecmo Super Bowl or even Ken Griffey Jr. Baseball is just kidding themselves. I usually don't belittle people for their opinions but anyone who thinks that is the case has to own stock in Take-Two or something because that is one of the dumbest claims I have ever read on an internet message board.

[JonahNYC]

My Final Four would be:

Earl Weaver Baseball (Amiga), Front Sports Football: Pro (MS-DOS), Out of the Park Baseball 6 (Windows), and NBA 2K2 (Dreamcast)

[catcatch22]

I played tecmo superbowl back in the day, I am 30 yrs old and it is no where close to Joe Montana Football especially the 1994 edition. Tecmo Superbowl revolutionary, HA!

[yamabushi]

Re: OS Roundtable: Looking at the Best Sports Game Tourney

I'll preface this by paraphrasing my statements from the tournament forum:
To me ‘Best’ is quantitative. A quick look at the ‘numbers’ (ie: features, options, gameplay) eliminates every pre-PS2 era game. Plain. and Simple.
I'll offer this example: What's the Best Corvette? Your favorite might be a '58 or a split window '63, and you might hate the ’08. but which car accelerates, brakes, and corners better? ....Exactly.

That being said, What should have been in the final four? In no particular order:
MLB 08: the show
CHoops 2K8
TOCA 3
NFL 2K5
All pinnacles of their genres, which have yet to be surpassed in features or gameplay.
<O
And Ill add this; I hear a lot of claims that the 2K games where sentimental picks, because they're the last of their line, but cant the same be said about TSB, Tyson, Baseball Stars? Did any these games have any significant, or any at all, follow ups?

[muggins]

Re: OS Roundtable: Looking at the Best Sports Game Tourney

Props to stewaat for being one of the few to not whine about College Hoops 2k8.

[LiquidCrash]

Re: OS Roundtable: Looking at the Best Sports Game Tourney

I'll preface this by paraphrasing my statements from the tournament forum:
To me ‘Best’ is quantitative. A quick look at the ‘numbers’ (ie: features, options, gameplay) eliminates every pre-PS2 era game. Plain. and Simple.
I'll offer this example: What's the Best Corvette? Your favorite might be a '58 or a split window '63, and you might hate the ’08. but which car accelerates, brakes, and corners better? ....Exactly.

That being said, What should have been in the final four? In no particular order:
MLB 08: the show
CHoops 2K8
TOCA 3
NFL 2K5
All pinnacles of their genres, which have yet to be surpassed in features or gameplay.
<o>
And Ill add this; I hear a lot of claims that the 2K games where sentimental picks, because they're the last of their line, but cant the same be said about TSB, Tyson, Baseball Stars? Did any these games have any significant, or any at all, follow ups?

Technological superiority does not necessarily mean better. It's hard to objectively quantify "best" when talking about this. I had more fun and spent more hours playing Tecmo Super Bowl as a kid than I ever have with any other game. Does it stand up to modern games in terms of graphics or options? Of course not. But it's still a ton of fun to play and was certainly the greatest of its era. Throw in the ability to play full season and track stats with real teams and players and was a groundbreaking title.

Just as your Corvette analogy is also flawed in similar ways. I'm not going to say one of the terrible 80s/early 90s version of a Vette or a Mustang or any other number of cars was better than those classic 60s versions simply because they came later and have more bells and whistles. I guess it's all how you look at things. To me, better isn't always as simple as looking at tech specs.

I have no problem with NFL 2K5 winning as it was a great game and it clearly got the majority of the vote. It's not my personal choice, but it certainly is a justified winner.

</o>

[yamabushi]

Re: OS Roundtable: Looking at the Best Sports Game Tourney

Technological superiority does not necessarily mean better. It's hard to objectively quantify "best" when talking about this. I had more fun and spent more hours playing Tecmo Super Bowl as a kid than I ever have with any other game. Does it stand up to modern games in terms of graphics or options? Of course not. But it's still a ton of fun to play and was certainly the greatest of its era. Throw in the ability to play full season and track stats with real teams and players and was a groundbreaking title.

Just as your Corvette analogy is also flawed in similar ways. I'm not going to say one of the terrible 80s/early 90s version of a Vette or a Mustang or any other number of cars was better than those classic 60s versions simply because they came later and have more bells and whistles. I guess it's all how you look at things. To me, better isn't always as simple as looking at tech specs.

I have no problem with NFL 2K5 winning as it was a great game and it clearly got the majority of the vote. It's not my personal choice, but it certainly is a justified winner.

</O>

Im pretty sure Superior does mean better.
My car example may be gimped due to 3rd party intervention (govt. regs.) but I could offer other examples that prove my point.

[LiquidCrash]

Re: OS Roundtable: Looking at the Best Sports Game Tourney

I guess it all depends on how you look at things. I'm just suggesting that simply being a newer game on a higher tech console doesn't automatically mean the games are better than those that predated them. There were plenty of classic games on old consoles I'd take over new ones.

[BrianFifaFan]

Without this beconing an arguement, I have to agree with Yamabushi. Why? Because he named games that were bar-setters for there respective genres. And many of those games were the result of high technology. And Chris you are an unabashed Madden fan, so you like many other Madden fans didn't see the beauty of 2k5. No Madden before or since has duplicated the "perfect storm" of gameplay, presentation and faithfulness to the NFL. But it is about taste. For guys who religiously played STB Madden is the game that best suits that taste. But to defend Mike Tyson? Mike Tyson is truly a nostalgic pick. Look at the Fight Night series. While trying to straddle the Sim/Fun line, it actually was the best boxing virtual representation ever.

Games aren't just about the "fun" factor. They are artistic endeavors just like movies. If you guys analogies were super-imposed over that medium, then the Original King Kong was better then Peter Jacksons. Or the original Atari was superior to the 360/PS3 because it was the first. I'll grant that not all things are made better by technology. But to try to compare Atari's Adventure or Pitfall to the games we have today, come on guys. Tecmo Bowl was fun, for then in the 8-bit world. But it can't compete now. Just like old balck and white movies with stop-motion special effects. Or maybe I should use the comparison of 1920's football players against todays......

[JonahNYC]

"All pinnacles of their genres, which have yet to be surpassed in features or gameplay."

Not one released before 2005, I see.

[ty5oke]

I will be playing CHOOPS 2k8 for a long long time. I doubt that MM will be good enough in the next few years to consider me making a switch, if it is then great. But with no competition I don't see MM becoming a better game. It will have the same lasting appeal as 2k5, since it will be the best representation of College Hoops for the coming years.

[tabulaRasa]

Talk about being full of it. Dissing NFL2k5 and CH2k8 , well the reason anyone remember those other old games like Tecmo super bowl and Griffin baseball whatever, is the lack of competetion in those early years and really, the lack of true representation of the sport got filled with a boy´s imagination. Tecmo superbowl isn´t a great football game, mike tyson punch out isn´t´better than Fight night, the show is clearly much better than whatever old baseball game. NHL 94 is garbage compared to even a game like NHL98.

So roundtable guys, you are the ones that should stop voting with bias, which clearly is based on old fond memories, but still just mediocre games that were GOOD then, not now.

BTW, anyone who thinks the money goal NHL94(aim top shelf) game was better than NHL95 which actually had varied scoring and TRADES is truly way off.

[BlyGilmore]

Yama - none of the games you mentioned were the last in the line. And none of those games were produced in the era of annual updates, making it a bit of an apples to oranges comparison.

Brian - About the "unabashed Madden fan," you can easily make the case you or others are "unabashed NFL 2k5 fans" who overrate the significance of the game. I'm not refuting NFL 2k5 was a good game and perhaps ahead of its time, but your argument can easily be turned around and used on you and fans of NFL 2k.

[BlyGilmore]

Re: OS Roundtable: Looking at the Best Sports Game Tourney

I guess it all depends on how you look at things. I'm just suggesting that simply being a newer game on a higher tech console doesn't automatically mean the games are better than those that predated them. There were plenty of classic games on old consoles I'd take over new ones.

Exactly.

I take partial blame for some of this banter as I didn't define "best" well enough for the purposes of this discussion. that is something that will be remedied next year.

with that said, i also figured folks would take into consideration the game as it was when it first came out, while also factoring in the historical significance of the game, its impact on sports gaming and its impact on pop culture.

To use music as an example, what you people are arguing is the equivalent of saying Linkin Park is better than The Beattles, because they have better technology, can produce better quality audio then was available in the 1960s, and make more money from their albums.

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: OS Roundtable: Looking at the Best Sports Game Tourney

Yama - none of the games you mentioned were the last in the line. And none of those games were produced in the era of annual updates, making it a bit of an apples to oranges comparison.

Brian - About the "unabashed Madden fan," you can easily make the case you or others are "unabashed NFL 2k5 fans" who overrate the significance of the game. I'm not refuting NFL 2k5 was a good game and perhaps ahead of its time, but your argument can easily be turned around and used on you and fans of NFL 2k.

I don't refute your point about my being an unabashed 2k5 fan. What I was trying to make the point of is this. Wasn't Chris Madden Mania? That would seem to me to lend itself to him having a bias, maybe.:wink: And there are guys on both sides of the fence of bias. And I really feel you about comparing games that were singular titles vs. yearly updates. I wonder which approach was better? But that's a whole 'nother discussion.....Peace!

P.S. I still can't agree about any game from yesteryear being relevant now. The Beatles analogy doesn't hold because the Beatles wrote songs that were timeless, as well as driving forward recording tech. To say that TSB has set a bar yet to be surpassed is straight feel good nostalgia. 2d sprite based characters that played dumb unrealistic (but fun) football have been far surpassed by the worst Madden.Like you said, the only way to make this a fair comparison is to put an * on the whole thing and judge each game in it's own timeframe. But the whole tourney thing was entertaining.....