OS Fact or Fiction: Real Time Physics Edition

[RaychelSnr]

Some games have done masterful jobs of implementing real-time physics. Efforts such as FIFA and NHL this year showcased what the technology could do. Other efforts, such as the one from Madden are still a little rough around the edges to be sure. But the question we're wondering today with our writers: are real time physics even necessary to have a great sports game still?

Read More - OS Fact or Fiction: Real Time Physics Edition

[TheRealHST]

Physics are a big part of sports in real life and how can you have realistic sports game without something that happens in everyday life? Football especially needs physics (all the sports do but most importantly football).

You cant create accurate collisions with just animations and futhermore something like that shouldnt be confined to a animation. When you collide with someone in real life is it confined to an animation? Cant you break out of someone grabbing you or someone bumping into you? Yes! So why should a sports game be confined to an animation.

A prime example is NBA 2K13. I can still dunk on an opponent while clearly morphing through their arms. When have you ever seen that happen in a real NBA game?....Oh thats right...NEVER lol....Physics are what is needed to stop things like that in sports games. Its time. You all cant cry about realism and then not what the most realistic thing you can put in a sports game which is the law of physics, the laws we all abide by on this planet.

[K0ZZ]

How can you say that Backbreaker had remotely realistic physics? They are more laughable then the oddities that popup from Madden. Physics are absolutely neccesary, you still see weird hits happen in all the previous 'success' of the archaic system. Once physics become more streamlined and devs remove the oddities (much like they did from 12 to 13 in FIFA), it is a clear necessity. NBA 2k has struggled from the interior, rebounding has its issues as does finishing (which had been improved from 2K12's 'everything is blocked' mentality). These things would be very much aided by physics, as would setting picks and the basic player movement.

Without physics there's warping (which tends to be an issue with coding and/or outdated engine). Warping was very much existent in APF 2K8 as other sports games. Neither looks good.

[TheLetterZ]

I hear what Jayson and Caley are saying, but backing up your point by citing games that were good five years ago doesn't really cut it for me.

Yes, those games were great when they came out.

Would you play any of them now?

The only one of them that's still playable in my mind is College Hoops 2K8, and that's only because there hasn't been a college basketball game released since EA's mediocre NCAA Basketball 10 three years ago.

I liked All-Pro Football 2K8 and College Hoops 2K8 too, but if the games on the next generation of consoles play like those two games, I'll be very disappointed.

[cgalligan]

Jayson Young: Fact. Games like All Pro Fotball 2K8 prove that you can create accurate player movement and realistic collisions using plain old motion capture animations. Obviously, the future of sports gaming lies in real time physics, but at this moment, it's not a necessity for making a believable sports simulation.

Procedural collisions can actually become a distraction and make a game less realistic if they are poorly implemented, as Madden NFL 13 has proved with its Three Stooges tackling routines and bizarre limb contortions.

Like any technology, real time physics is only as good as the programming behind it

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I couldn't agree more

[TheLetterZ]

Re: OS Fact or Fiction: Real Time Physics Edition

Jayson Young: Fact. Games like All Pro Fotball 2K8 prove that you can create accurate player movement and realistic collisions using plain old motion capture animations. Obviously, the future of sports gaming lies in real time physics, but at this moment, it's not a necessity for making a believable sports simulation.

Procedural collisions can actually become a distraction and make a game less realistic if they are poorly implemented, as Madden NFL 13 has proved with its Three Stooges tackling routines and bizarre limb contortions.

Like any technology, real time physics is only as good as the programming behind it

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I couldn't agree more

Well, sure, but that's a cop-out to me.

Nothing is a "necessity" if it sucks.

[22cedric]

Fiction Physics is needed in sports games moving forward to make the AI more realistic.

[CigarCityBandit]

Anyone who thinks the future of sports gaming doesn't have RTP at its core is fooling themselves.
Also the veiled argument that All Pro Football's animations are more palatable than Madden 13's RTP inclusion
(remembering that its the first year its been implemented) is borderline absurd. APF is very dated in most of its gameplay while this years Madden is better than EVERY football game before it almost solely due to the Infinity Engine. While its not anywhere near perfected, its still better than what came before it.
I have no problem seeing awkward limb contortions every now and again or a guy tripping over someone post-play in order to have the rest of what the Infinity Engine does right. This lack of credence given to Madden relative to the IE situation and all its POSITIVES appears to wreak of bias for whatever reason.
Funny that a game like NBA 2k13 is being praised as this pinnacle of sports gaming, while still having gameplay/presentation issues and what one could argue is a completely unintuitive control scheme, yet a game which has improved and started to remove the canned animations little by little opting for physics based gameplay is constantly criticized as shoddy...RIGHT

[BezO]

I thought the animations in 2K football looked good. I'm sure they'd be even better had they been producing games the past 7 years. 2K basketball's animations look great too without real time physics. Obviously the results wouldn't be infinite, but I think great things could be done with a high number of animations & trigger points.

I guess I'll appreciate RTP more as the tech improves, but for now, ehh. As slow as Madden seems to improve, who knows when they'll get it looking good, especially next generation.

[CigarCityBandit]

I think what bothers me about 2k13, and this may be what others who are very quiet but not totally enamored with 2k13 may also feel: This way of controlling, along with the canned animation heavy system in place makes me feel like Im playing a fighting game where I am triggering sets of animations and trying to time the next one at the perfect point when the first one is about to end etc. And this isn't inherently bad, its just that when I play games like NHL, FIFA and Madden that "Feel" like they use un-shackled controls I have a greater feeling of control and immersion than what 2k13 involves.
This is a difficult point to make given the fact that you can make the ballers in 2k do everything they can in a real game. Having said that though, I think NBA 2k13 went so canned animation heavy that it proves that the control scheme required to trigger all of these sequences becomes cumbersome and very unintuitive.
My guess is that this is the peak of what 2k can do here without bringing in RTP. I will tell you this, I would have NO interest in another edition of 2k basketball that delves even deeper into this Rabbit hole they have gone into. I know I am being blasphemous to most of you reading this but I am sure Im not the only one.
And to your point BezO... While 2k football looked and played great (it was my preferred football game) I have almost NO doubt in my mind that VC would have already used RTP in their football game had they been making one over the last 7 years. They were always cutting edge when it came to NFL football.
Then there is NBA Live...It's almost laughable that people have slammed EA for its NBA Live situation. Yeah its probably some poor in house management stuff but ultimately what they are trying to do could make 2k look dated, from a strictly game play standpoint. Not saying it will, just that if they iron out the physics enough to put out a quality playing game using mostly RTP...I will play that over canned animated ALL DAY LONG. The presentation aspects and depth of the total game with respect to career modes etc will all come. What I am interested in is the game play first and foremost.

[miraiii]

ive been tooting the "physics-horn" ever since i joined OS. The Morphing in NBA 2k13 (for example) really kills the game for me...it breaks the immersion...and when hand check fould are called with 0 contact...

but as important as physics are: animation must not be forgotten: If you compare, say Fifa13, to a real football broadcast the real thing just "flows" more naturally...there's a need for more "natural-inbetween" animations between two mocap animations...

finally: no so called "real time physics" engine is actually great at this point in time...even in Fifa13 the ball sometimes magically morphes through another players foot, when it was clears supposed to make contact with it...maybe next-gen will help solving this issue...

i read an article, maybe 5 years ago, i think it was an epic or crytek lead dev, who mentioned that photo-realism is not too far of...but realistic physics will take atleast 10 more years to come around...so maybe next gen will bring the revolution: regardless: current gen consoles need dying...and the need it badly for the industry to move on

[cwash020]

This is my humble opinion, so feel free to disagree. But if I am asked to choose between APF gameplay with canned animations and Madden with real time physics - then I will take APF all day long. Listen, I have no allegiance to 2K, Sony, or EA. But at the end of the day I am a 30 plus father of two with a 9-5 job. So when I have time to play, I choose to play sports games that provide a huge fun factor AND a sense of realism. Madden 13 made strides with the Infinity Engine, but had significant issues with the CCM mode and on the field action to the point where it was only fun in bursts for me. And the simple fact is that when I pop APF back in my 360 it still does many things better than Madden 13 regardless of real time physics.

Props to NBA 2K for providing a very realistic game in terms of presentation and player differentiation. But outside of 2K11, this series has bored me to tears over the last 5-6 years. Part of that can be attributed to my lack of interest in the NBA compared to the late 80s/early 90s. Nevertheless, they are managing to get by without real time physics.

To me FIFA got it right this generation. They have some level of a real physics model, but managed to not to have as many wonky animations/bugs. And most importantly, it's still a very enjoyable game.

I think if these companies focus too much on physics they are going to lose sight of what makes a game fun and complete. (i.e. look at the quality of the graphics in Madden 12 vs. Madden 13, am I the only one who thinks they got worse with the Infinity Engine).

[TheRealHST]

I wish some of you would stop saying physics is technology. It is not. It is something that happens in your everyday life. If I push you, your reaction to me pushing you is physics, etc.

The fact remains that physics are needed period, otherwise you can no longer call a any of the sports games realistic without it, because by taking something that happens naturally in our everyday movements (and definitely in sports) out of sports than how is it realistic and whats the point?

I dont want to play a football game where physics arent respected and you continue to see morphing and guys falling forward when they were hit head on, or balls going thorught arms, etc, etc.

What is the main thing that gets complained about here on OS??? OFFENSIVE LINE PLAY. If you are one of the people who doesnt want physics in sports games yet wants improved O-Line, D-Line play than you might as well give up that crusade.

I didnt expect Backbreaker or Madden to get this thing right in the first year. Yes its buggy but it still does good in light of that. Its just amazing to me how people dont want something in a game that is cleary in everyday football that we watch. I thought the whole point was to achieve a game that was realistic? Animations dont happen in real life.

And why is there this notion that for some strange reason you cant have good gameplay and physics? Why is this farse being created? Im pretty sure someone can develop both, its not rocket science or a cure for AIDS, im pretty sure both can be implemented. sheesh....

[OhioBuckeyes7]

Anyone Not wanting Real Time physics is the same cheep dudes i lose to in madden by using a cheep Nano Glitch blitz which is still in the game. Physics are needed. proof look at NCAA 13 they added Real Time Physics in NCaa and it works great. Madden did too and it works good. there is still a Nano glitch in madden but in 14 i expect it to be removed.

[jahidtt]

Re: OS Fact or Fiction: Real Time Physics Edition

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