Madden NFL 17 Review (Xbox One)

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Bucky, I'm not answering for Ben, but did you listen to the podcast of 4tdverts with John White, one of the developers of CFM. Based on that interview, I got the impression that XP wasn't going away. It sounded like to me they would like to make the XP experience more realistic. That was my takeaway.

"More realistic" doesn't give me confidence in getting a realistic CFM experience. Whether XP exists or not really doesn't matter to me. It's how it's implemented that does. I don't mind EA/Tib providing an arcade experience if they have an optional realistic counterpart. Adding realistic elements on top of an arcade base doesn't really do anyone any good (arcade or realism crowd).

[jrjolley]

Quote: Originally Posted by BadAssHskr

yeah this review has me more excited about the game. i'm looking to get some reading and watching in today, and your review was most pleasant from the previous 2 ive read. i like the positive light. i don't play enough to always find glaring issues, and as a whole i'm always happy with the game. this review is way encouraging. thanks.

I'm also looking forward to the game now. As a blind player, it's good to know that the commentary is significantly better. I'd love it if someone has any full games from top to bottom so I can hear what the commentary's like for late game situations and that kind of thing.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

"More realistic" doesn't give me confidence in getting a realistic CFM experience. Whether XP exists or not really doesn't matter to me. It's how it's implemented that does. I don't mind EA/Tib providing an arcade experience if they have an optional realistic counterpart. Adding realistic elements on top of an arcade base doesn't really do anyone any good (arcade or realism crowd).

I guess my point was it didn't sound like, based on the interview, that a optional realistic counterpart was in the future, but I could be wrong on that note, too.

Just a gut feeling.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

I guess my point was it didn't sound like, based on the interview, that a optional realistic counterpart was in the future, but I could be wrong on that note, too. Just a gut feeling.

I think you're right. I'm with you thinking the realism CFM crowd is out of luck. But it seemed like a good question and time to ask Ben (if he has access) to bring this up with the Madden devs.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by BenGerman

Hey Bez, I'm interested in hearing some of the legacy issues you're seeing. While not attributing them directly to "legacy issues", I definitely saw some problems that have existed in prior games (i.e. Running backs slamming into the O line and falling down).

Poor, binary player interaction. You mentioned the pocket, but left out the lacking dynamics. It's still basically win or lose. I'm not seeing pockets collapse, for example. And DEs still get up field way too slow.

Despite gap assignments, contain is almost non-existant. One of the hardest things to do in the NFL is to take the corner. I'm seeing this happen regularly in vids I'm watching. Stretches & tosses still look like the go to run play. And QBs still escape the pocket too easily. When there is contain, it's only because the d-linemen or OLB disengaged. They can't maintain outside leverage while engaged. Very binary.

Despite the emphasis on special teams, still no gunner interaction. In the NFL, those guys try to engage the gunner asap and keep him from getting up field. In Madden, blocker(s) turn, run and set up blocks near the returner.

More special teams, the o-line on field goals are still pass blocking instead of the bend don't break style used in the NFL. I'm sure there's some things I won't notice in a vid, but the only special teams improvements I see are a new kick meter and designated punt/FG blockers.

Footwork is still poor. Still no tiered defensive play calling. A lot of stiff animations that standout against the newer ones. Defensive matchups? No huddle / hurry offense differentiation, and players still get to the LOS too fast. No short yardage blocking animations. No special teams depth chart? No SOLB/WOLB or SS/FS alignment. I'm going to stop before I turn this into my wishlist.

[BenGerman]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

Ben, are you a reviewer only or do you have direct contact with Madden Devs? My biggest issue with madden is CFM and how all their abstractions are very arcade. Any chance they will give options in CFM to provide more (optional) realistic CFM abstractions? You were asking Bez for examples so I'm just taking a chance that you may have a line to Madden developer/designers. The realism crowd really doesn't have a franchise path. My question/comment is strictly CFM. I think gameplay has taken some steps toward realism.

Hey Bucky.

I certainly understand your point. In year's past, the XP system has really bugged me as well. It was more subdued this year and I actually think it works pretty well. My guess is that EA is slowly moving toward handling franchise mode in some other way, but I can't confirm that in any way.

[BenGerman]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

Poor, binary player interaction. You mentioned the pocket, but left out the lacking dynamics. It's still basically win or lose. I'm not seeing pockets collapse, for example. And DEs still get up field way too slow. Despite gap assignments, contain is almost non-existant. One of the hardest things to do in the NFL is to take the corner. I'm seeing this happen regularly in vids I'm watching. Stretches & tosses still look like the go to run play. And QBs still escape the pocket too easily. When there is contain, it's only because the d-linemen or OLB disengaged. They can't maintain outside leverage while engaged. Very binary. Despite the emphasis on special teams, still no gunner interaction. In the NFL, those guys try to engage the gunner asap and keep him from getting up field. In Madden, blocker(s) turn, run and set up blocks near the returner. More special teams, the o-line on field goals are still pass blocking instead of the bend don't break style used in the NFL. I'm sure there's some things I won't notice in a vid, but the only special teams improvements I see are a new kick meter and designated punt/FG blockers. Footwork is still poor. Still no tiered defensive play calling. A lot of stiff animations that standout against the newer ones. Defensive matchups? No huddle / hurry offense differentiation, and players still get to the LOS too fast. No short yardage blocking animations. No special teams depth chart? No SOLB/WOLB or SS/FS alignment. I'm going to stop before I turn this into my wishlist.

I definitely take issue with the binary line play as well. A while ago (I think on OS), I wrote about how well Madden would do with more dynamic variation in the way line play should be handled. I'm totally on board with that line of thought.

It isn't so much that I am ignoring these issues or don't recognize them, it's that there are other things that I think (most) people will find to be more prevalent. As a whole, I thought line play works pretty well. But in a review that already has so much to say, the binary line play wasn't as big of an issue as some of the other things I mentioned (ie the QB play being too uniform across the board).

I get the issues with special teams as well. For me, ST was improved at such a level that - while there are certainly things to work on - I couldn't help but be gleeful with some of the changes.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by BenGerman

Hey Bucky. I certainly understand your point. In year's past, the XP system has really bugged me as well. It was more subdued this year and I actually think it works pretty well. My guess is that EA is slowly moving toward handling franchise mode in some other way, but I can't confirm that in any way.

Thanks for the response Ben.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the bold. I've been very diligent about looking at CFM blogs and watching CFM videos and all the new M17 CFM abstractions are still arcade abstractions. So I just can't see how, the way XP is currently implemented in M17 CFM, works well for realism. I do think it works very well for the arcade/RPG crowd.

Thanks again Ben for responding.