Expanded Attributes

[Mattanite]

Expanded Attributes

So similar to the Badge Ideas thread I started earlier this year, I wanted to open a discussion on what if they went the “Expanded Attributes” route either instead of badges or in conjunction with them. This starts with looking at the attributes that already exist in Madden and how they apply, working up to how they could be expanded and organised in such a way that it can make for either quick use or more in depth use.

Unlike a lot of other sports games out there, in fact, practically all of them, Madden and Football is in a unique position where not only are none of the players 2 way players, but the position groups perform very specialised tasks on the field without much overlap with other position groups. Therefore, when you look at the abundance of attributes presented (see below for the long list) in current Madden games, when you look at them in more detail, they are actually a little bit… basic.

Compare with a game like Fifa or NBA2k where each player is both offensive AND defensive and can be asked to do anything at any position creating some very unique players but also a more dynamic set of players overall. Compare the difference to how PG Westbrook plays the game vs Chris Paul or a 7”3’ centre finding themselves on perimeter defence or that a Striker can find themselves on defence in the box or a Centre-back asked to come up forward and score with a header. You avoid doing certain moves or actions with a player knowing they suck at doing that move and try to play to the strengths of the players on the field/court/pitch.

Madden (or football in general) doesn’t have this type of dynamism, except possible on a defensive return for a touchdown and so the attributes could do with expanding for each position. The following list looks huge but like I said, once you pick out important attributes for a specific position it is not. However, expanding the attributes is likely to get heads spinning for new gamers and non-sim guys who just want to throw 4 verts all day, therefore like how the Madden Skills Trainer is the best of all sports games, it needs to be broken down for ease of use.

Rough Breakdown of the Existing Attributes in Madden
POS Specific Position of player
Height Affects size rating and wingspan radius
Weight Affects Size Rating
Age Development soft and hard cap, regression and retirement
DEV Cost of XP packages, rate of XP earned and regression of player
OVR Dynamic overall of player based on scheme position archetype
PHYS Combination of physical traits affected by Scheme Archetype and determines OVR
INT Combination of intangible traits affected by Scheme Archetype and determines OVR
DUR Combination of Stamina, Injury and Toughness determines OVR
SIZE Combination of height and weight affected by Scheme Archetype and determines OVR
PER Intangible performance rating affecting season-season OVR, now resets each season, used to accumulate over a career
SPD Maximum Speed
ACC Time taken to reach full speed
AGI Lateral Speed/Change of direction
STR Overall Strength of player
JMP Jumping Height
AWR Awareness, affects a number of things and some believe to act like a consistency rating
THP Velocity and max distance of throw
THA Accuracy during sim
TAS Accuracy% of short throws
TAM Accuracy% of intermediate throws
TAD Accuracy% of deep throws
PAC Probability of Play Action "bite"
RUN Accuracy modifier if on the move
CAR Probability% of fumbling
TRK Ability to fall forwards and % break tackles with power moves
ELU Ability and % to break tackles with shifty moves
BCV Consistency modifier for O-Line, acts like runner AWR in sim
STF Ability and % to break tackles or extend run before tackled with stiff arm
SPN % of performing successful spin move
JUK % of performing successful juke move
CAT % of catching ball in open field
SPC % of triggering and successfully performing spectacular catch
CIT % of catching ball when defender closes
RTE speed/agility bonus when running routes with cuts
RLS % ability to beat press
RBK Length of time run block is held
PBK Length of time pass block is held
IMP % of performing a pancake
RBS Hidden trait in CFM
RBF Hidden trait in CFM
PBS Hidden trait in CFM
PBF Hidden trait in CFM
TCK % of performing successful tackle and not allowing break tackle
PWR % of causing fumble
PMV % of beating pass block with power move
FMV % of beating pass block with finesse move
BSH % of beating run block with shed move
PUR Effort of defender chasing ball carrier, possible angle to tackle
PRC Acts like AWR but for defence
MAN Ability to stick with player in man coverage
ZON Ability to hand off in zone and reaction speed on football
PRS % ability to jam receiver at LOS
STA Length of time for sprint button and no. of break tackles performed
TGH Length of injury once injured
INJ % of becoming injured with on-football play
RET % of dropping punt or kick return
KPW Max distance and hang time of kick
KAC Accuracy% of kick and punts
Personality Sells jerseys in owner mode
Popularity Sells jerseys in owner mode
Consistency XP earned in training drills (retired)
Performance Intangible performance rating affecting season-season OVR, now resets each season

The Big 7 that make OVR
Physical – A grade/rating for the physical attributes at that position
Skill – A grade/rating for the skill attributes at that position, this can be learnt/coached
Intangible – A grade/rating for the more innate unmeasurable attributes at that position
Playmaking – A grade/rating for the playmaking attributes at that position
Heart– A grade/rating for the team/morale influence
Durability– A grade/rating for the player durability
Size – A grade/rating for the size rating based on scheme position archetype

Physical

• Speed – Speed of the player in play
• Agility – Lateral agility of the player in play
• Acceleration – Acceleration up to Max speed of the player in play
• First Step – Reaction time and first step of the player at snap, Everson Griffin has such an amazing first step he is sometimes wrongly flagged as in the neutral zone. That 1^st round OL with 90 rated first step is going to be awesome at blocking speed rushes around the bullhorn.
• Balance – Total body control of a player, ability to flip hips and not fall over, to extend a running play when part tackled, to bounce off their own OL butts, to crawl back up once shoe string tackled, to land perfectly ready to run after a jumping catch, toe tap catches.
• Jumping – Vertical leaping ability but also diving distance for catches and tackles. Combined with wingspan makes for total ball cover area
• Upper Strength – Upper body strength of the player, influences stiff arm, WR/DB hand fighting, catch in traffic, some power moves (throw, single arm push), finesse move hand fighting, block shed.
• Lower Strength – Lower body strength, influences truck with multiple break tackle animations, the push of a lineman, distance lost or gained making a tackle.
• Throw Power – For QBs
• Hit Power – For defenders

Skill
This one is a hard one so stick with me as it needs to be split per position and obviously the weighting of each skill would depend on the scheme archetype in place.

QB – The most important position in all of sports needs a lot more focus than currently exists, see QB accuracy diagram for example:

• Awareness – Used mostly in simulation, tiered control of QB (99 AWR can call any hot route and audible, 40 AWR has to run the coaches chosen play with limited audible options).
• Fake – Effectiveness of pump fake, trick plays and read option/mesh point fakes
• Cadence – Effectiveness of making defenders jump offside and OL false start
• Short Throw Accuracy
  • Inside Accuracy – Accuracy on slants, drags, quick in routes
  • Outside Accuracy – Accuracy on screens, short hooks, quick out routes
  
  
• Medium Throw Accuracy
  • Inside Accuracy – Accuracy on in routes, hooks over middle, etc
  • Outside Accuracy – Accuracy on out routes, hooks etc
  
  
• Deep Throw Accuracy
  • Deep Middle Accuracy – Accuracy on deep routes over the middle
  • Post/Go Accuracy – Accuracy on fly, go and post routes outside
  
  
• Accuracy under pressure – Accuracy modifier when under pressure
• Throw across body – Accuracy modifier when throwing to side of field across body
• Throw on the run – Accuracy modify whilst on the run
• Play action – Effectiveness of Play action
• Catching – Ability to handle snaps and bad snaps/probability of bad QB hand off
• Throw Release – Speed of release, so 2 QBs can have the same throwing style, but one with a faster release. Slower release QBs would need better OL around them, whereas a quick release QB might get away with releasing under pressure.
  • Quick Release – Release speed for 3step drops, under pressure and on the run
  • Standard Release – Release speed for 5step drops and standard pocket throws
  • Deep Release – Release speed for 7 step drops, hail mary wind-ups and other deep throws
  
  

HB

• Awareness – As before, general awareness of runner. Now also influences bad handoffs from QB that are the HB fault. Low AWR rookies can’t be trusted as much as veterans.
• Open Field Ball Carrier Vision – For CPU, how well does the runner identify lanes between defenders in the open field. For USER, provides a slight boost to run blocking of players in their area in the open field.
• Traffic Ball Carrier Vision – For CPU, how well does the runner identify gaps in the area of the line of scrimmage. For USER, provides a slight boost to run blocking of players in their area in the area of the line of scrimmage.
• Carrying – As before, but with different runner carrying styles.
• Catching – As before, but with different catching styles plus hands/body catching
• Catch in Traffic – As before, affected by hand fighting and upper strength
• Route Running – With route tree breakdown, struggle to line up as receiver without it. Important for screens and 3^rd down backs.
• Blocking – See O-line, would be an overall grade of various blocking skills
  • Click to see all blocking skills, like the OL skills layout
  
  

FB

• A combination of HB and OL skills on the quick menu… big set here for the jack of all trades.

WR

• Awareness – As before but also, AWR would make a slight millisecond difference to when the receiver icon lit up as ready to throw. Low AWR receivers could light up too early and not be ready for the catch or fractionally too late and rely on making a contested catch. High AWR receivers would light up right on time for the QB to throw.
• Catching – General rating for making an uncontested catch in the open field. New styles would introduce different catch animations/tendencies for body or hands catchers. Or split:
  • Body Catcher – Rating for tendency and ability of body/possession catches. Low rating means tend to drops balls directly at them more.
  • Hands Catcher – Rating for tendency and ability of hands catches. Low Hands means likely to drop balls when in bad body position. High rating means better reach out catch chance.
  
  
• Catch in Traffic – As before, affected by hand fighting and upper strength
• Route Running – See route tree diagram for example, this would be OVR route running
  • Screen/Gadget
  • Flat/Drag
  • Slant/Quick In
  • Hitch/Curl (Includes short/quick hitch/curl)
  • In (includes quick in)
  • Out (includes quick out)
  • Post/Corner
  • Go/Fly/Deep fade
  
  
• Release – As before but now also influenced by hand fighting
• Hand Fighting – Agility and technical ability of hands when fighting off a DB in press, being redirected and in contested catches. Low hand fighting could result in offensive PI more.

TE

• A combination of both WR and OL skill sets… big menu for these guys as they have to do everything

OL

• Awareness – Overall mental acuity of the OL, ability to spot and pick up blitzers/free rushers, where & when to double team but also defend against setting up pass rush moves e.g. The 1 on 1 match up against the defender lasts the match, Freeney spends the whole game setting up his spin move so then he can deploy it when he needs it most.
• Hand fighting – agility and technique of hand fighting with defenders, all about getting your hands on the defender without them getting leverage. Influences chance of getting Holding call as low hand fighters might grapple more.
• Run block – Don’t need to differentiate between RBK strength and footwork as Hand fighting is now factored in and “finish” would determine an element of sustaining the block and push back is according to upper and lower strength plus weight/strength of defender.
• Pass block – Don’t need to differentiate between PBK strength and footwork as Hand fighting is now factored in and “finish” would determine an element of sustaining the block. First step, balance and agility now important against finesse rushes and strength against pull rushes.
• Impact Block – Probability of getting a first hit surge/push on defender when hands are placed, can result in pancake, higher impact block increases stamina reduction of defender.
• Pulling Block – Boost or reduction to blocking skills when pulling on a play
• Open Field Block – Boost or reduction to blocking skills outside of the area of the line of scrimmage
• Snap – Consistency of snap quality under centre and in shotgun, increases/decreases chance of bad snaps. Very important for Cs and long snappers obviously but also if thinking of kicking a guard to centre.

Defense

• Awareness – Play recognition for jumping a play is separate, this is more awareness against your assigned defender. So a pass rusher might try to set up certain moves. CB can anticipate the WR tricks/double moves etc
• Tackle
  • Heads up tackle/Wrap up tackle – Tackle rating for simple tackle, sometimes with spin, in the area of the line of scrimmage when defender is in front of runner
  • Open Field tackle – Tackle 1 on 1 in the open field and against runner moves and chase down tackles, important for isolated deep safeties but also special team gunners
  • Hard Tackle – Tackle rating when using hit stick, some guys whiff or can’t wrap up when lowering their shoulder, others bring the lumber with precision
  
  
• Power Move
  • Straight Bull Rush – Straight line to the quarterback, rushers with good hand fighting attribute and good length could attempt a single arm rush. Good OL will attempt to get 2 hands on the rusher to kill off leverage on this move. Need high lower strength and decent upper strength
  • Club/Counter – Inside rush with a strong rip/club move or counter if rusher has good balance and awareness to set up. Need high upper strength
  • Speed Bull Rush – Outside rush where rusher has good first step, goes up field and turns into OL with a punch move to chest or side of chest. Need good first step and balance, be a good finisher and have high upper strength
  
  
• Finesse Move
  • Rip – Standard swim move with quick hand fighting and trying to get inside or outside of the OL. Need good first step, hand fighting and decent upper strength
  • Dip/Speed/Bull horn – Head straight up the field and cut in to the QB leaning into the OL to try and catch the QB on the dropback. Good balance, first step and speed
  • Spin – Spin inside or spin outside depending on direction pushed, high balance/awareness rushers with good hand fighting can setup the fake spin.
  
  
• Block Shed – As before but now influenced by hand fighting and wingspan, different animations can trigger based on upper and lower strength too.
• Pursuit – Affects effort of chase down but also angle taken in gap/open field and affects pass rushers on stunts and pass rush angles.
• Play Recognition – Film study rating basically, performs as before
• Man Cover – As before but now also affected by hand fighting at point of catch and balance attribute
  • Man Reaction – General Man Cover rating that contributes to sticking with their man on cuts in routes
  • Press Man – Man Coverage Rating when playing press at the line of scrimmage for the initial route after the snap
  • Off Man – Man Coverage Rating when playing off the line of scrimmage for the initial route after the snap
  • Deep Man – Man Coverage Rating 1on1 on 50/50 deep ball situations
  
  
  
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• Zone Cover – As before but now also affected by balance for change of direction in zone and hand fighting to redirect receiver
  • Flat Zone – Zone Cover rating on flat zones, most important for Cover 2 CBs
  • Hook Zone – Zone Cover rating on hook zones, most important for Cover 3 SS and Tampa2 LBs
  • Curl Zone – Zone Cover rating on curl Zones, most important to Cover3 LBs and Nickel CBs
  • Deep Zone – Zone Cover rating on deep zones, most important for FS in Cover 1/3 and Cover 3 CBs.
  
  
  
• Press – As before but now also combines with hand fighting to also jam double moves etc
• Hand Fighting – For rushers and DBs vs OL and WRs, speed and technical ability to use hands

Playmaking – Weighted differently depending on position and archetype

• Trucking – Ability to lower shoulder and truck, now affected by both strength attributes and balance.
• Stiff Arm – Now also influenced by upper strength and wingspan.
• Elusiveness – Now also influenced by agility and balance, if true step exists for all players, smaller players will also be naturally more elusive due to shorter strides/foot reaction.
• Juke – Ability to juke a player, precision jukes also affected by balance.
• Spin – Ability to perform a spin move, precision spin also affected by balance.
• Fake – Affects double moves, head fakes, spin fakes, pump fakes, fake blitz, fake cover.
• Strip Ball – For defenders, no longer a trait, but a rating for chance of success.
• Big Catch – For defenders, would combine CAT, CIT and SPC. For offense just SPC.

Intangible

• Performance – Bring back the previous “career” performance rating which can give a slight boost to OVR of veteran players and doesn’t reset each season but goes up and down over a season. As it used to it gives a slight nudge to veterans who know the scheme over high OVR rookies.
• Consistency – Affects hot/cold streaks and influences all attributes, so 99 plays up to their stats ever week no matter what, 50 would flip flop dramatically depending on the streak, 1 means the Joker is turning up to play.
• Popularity – High popularity means they might stick on a team due to jersey sales, team chemistry/morale improvements and cutting them can cause hits to morale and chemistry. Dynamic based on performance, OVR and awards.
• Progression – A rating which indicates the potential ceiling of a player, higher progression stat has more probability and bigger increase in development of attributes from coaching.
• Regression – All players regress differently, at 99 there will be no regression at the end of the season, lower regression rating means higher chance and severity of regression at end of season.
• Potential – Hidden stat which would determine soft cap for max OVR or a designation of a development style (flash in the pan, slow/quick learner, bust, HoFer).

Heart

• Morale – Individual morale of the player at that time, influences attributes up or down, affected by contract, position group battle, team record, coaches, etc
• Confidence – Boost or detriment to attributes based on personal and team performance
• Leadership – Rating to determine how player affects team and position group morale, dependant on position (QB high effect, K less effect). 99 rated QB would elevate the morale, confidence and attributes of the team, 50 would be Joe Bloggs turning up to work, 0 would be TO and team takes hit to confidence and morale.
• Mentality – How is this player affected by toxic locker rooms, confidence hits, morale hits, being in a comeback, being crushed by a big hit or threw an interception. 99 being “everything is awesome”- very low changes, 50 being affected a normal amount and 1 being “the end is nigh” larger hits to attributes from other Heart categories.
• Comeback – Rating to determine if or how much attributes are affected when being beaten by two or more touchdowns. 99 being “hates losing” and steps up their game with attributes boost, 50 being no change when losing and 1 being Albert Haynesworth having a nap on the field.
• Clutch – No longer just a trait, but how much are attributes influenced in clutch moments, 99 being ratings boost Tom Brady in Superbowl 51, 50 being not at all, 0 being melts like Blaine Gabbert taking a closed-eyes-pass.

Durability

• Overall Injury Rating – Click to expand
  • Heat Map/Rating shown per major body part
  
  
• Game Stamina – Stamina rating & depletion during a game
• Season Stamina – Stamina rating & depletion over a season
  • Heat Map/Rating shown per major body group
  
  
• Toughness – Affects the length a “minor” to “moderate” injury lingers and the comeback effects from a “major” injury (Think AD28 vs RG3 both coming back from a torn ACL at the same time, big difference). Click to expand
  • Minor Injuries Rating
  • Moderate Injuries Rating
  • Major Injuries Rating
  
  
• Drop off – Rating to determine the severity of the physical and skill ratings drop off when playing through an injury. Superstars are expected to still play well through injury whereas some guys really get hampered by that pulled hammy.
• Finish – Effort level and stamina depletion during making a block, beating a strong press cover, moving the pile in a truck/maul, block shed and pass rush, high finish defenders use multiple pass rush moves if 1^st failed, more likely to get arm up in air and play full speed throughout whole play. Think the Gronk or JJ Watt, they finish every play hard!

Size

• Height – Height of the player in feet and inches, this should influence feet planting and running gate if full true step is in place.
• Wingspan – Arm length or reach of a player, would be combined in game with Upper Strength for linemen and HB stiff arm and with WR/DBs for catch radius. JJ Watt is a beast because he uses his length well against OL. That 6’4” corner with pterodactyl wingspan is going to be drafted high but your position coach is going to suggest kicking the newly drafted LT with T-rex arms inside to guard.
• Weight – This needs to actually count. A 400lb DT with 70 strength is still a 400lb DT who will be hard to move but generate little push himself. A 250lb HB at full speed is a mammoth to bring down no matter their strength rating due to the velocity and force involved.
• Mass – How efficiently do they carry their weight which would act as a consistency modifier on their physical attributes? Think of RT Andre Smith’s t-shirt less pro day weigh in, or “Cupcake” on the Texans Hard Knocks getting his butt worked off. Myles Garrett would basically be entering the NFL with a 99 Mass rating as he carries his weight extremely well. Having a decent strength and conditioning coach on your staff to whip up a better mass rating would be a must have or guys might not play up to their physical potential.

User Interface
One of the trickiest parts of expanding attributes is the UI. Present too much information too quickly and it will overwhelm even the hardiest of sim players and present a cumbersome player menu. Hide the attributes under too many layers and people will find it exhausting learning about certain players.

I think the best setup in the roster menu would be levels.

Click roster

Initial View –
Name (Fixed Cell when scrolling)/Physical/Skill/Intangible/Playmaking/Heart/Durability/Size/Career
Over the top where the picture shows would be Height/Weight/Wingspan/Morale/Chemistry/OVR/Position preferences

Click triangle (Y) for expanded roster attributes
Click square (X) on player1 and then player2 to compare attributes
Click X(A) on player for specific roster attributes tile e.g. breakdown of Big8 attributes
When on player tile click triangle (Y) for subcategory attribute tile (route running, QB accuracy, DL moves)

Conclusion

Obviously the QB gets most of the love here, but that is because it needs the most differentiation out of any position in all of sports. The biggest new attribute that affects multiple positions is the Hand Fighting attribute. Look at most scouting reports IRL and they will talk about quick or strong hands but Madden has no way to replicate that. Articles written about the art of the pass rush talk about how matchups, angles and correct hand placement can beat athleticism most times.

The other biggest split is that playmaking and proper intangibles are now separated in a player. A player might have low skill but great intangibles, physical and playmaking abilities and you have to team plan for that player (T. Tebow comes to mind here). In Madden the intangibles listed are actually tangible skills like catching or accuracy.

As mentioned previously, the expansion of stats is about accessibility to a level that a player is most comfortable with. If a player wants a high level “just play” franchise experience they can have that, if a play wants to know every detail about their team they can have that too! Not sure if most of these expanded attributes would make it out of Franchise, as in MUT they would muddy the water too much.

It is worth noting that Head Coach scheme archetypes would also adjust how the Big8 traits are weighted too. So a strong arm QB scheme archetype would emphasize a bigger % of throw power to the Physical Rating.

This is all just my idea of how attributes could be split out and am totally open to suggestions, tweaks and discussions. If I have got an attribute function totally off mark just let me know as it was quite a rough breakdown of their functions. Think how your favourite players would be put together??!!


Concept Tiles as follows:

[vrtkolman]

Re: Expanded Attributes

This is all awesome stuff man! In fact, I like it so much I'm going to add some to it:

Physical:
- Hand size, also important in the same sense as wingspan. Also, this affects catching, so tie it to catching ratings? Probably related to fumbles as well.
- Maybe tie first step into “explosiveness”? That ability to generate a tremendous amount of force in a short area. This would be graded through broad jump and vertical scores.

I am fascinated by the draft and scouting process, and the more measurable we get the better.

WR:
- Separation, I’m certain that Paul Richardson is faster than DJax at this point in their careers, but DJax craps all over him in deep passes. The reason is DJax gets that separation at the point of the catch, that last little burst right before the ball reaches his hands. This would help differentiate between speed guys and true deep threats.

One thing I would love to see is an “Intensity” rating. A player with high intensity plays with an edge and is a bully, whereas the opposite is the definition of a soft player. This could be a trait, leading me to my last idea…

Internal traits and coachable traits:

Internal traits are special qualities that differentiate players from good to great. For example, Percy Harvin has open field moves unlike any player I’ve seen, so he should have some sort of “open field greatness” trait. These traits cannot be bought with EXP or added in any way. They are unique to certain players.

Coachable traits are things like intensity (above), high motor, and technique related things. They are related to the coaching staff of your team. If your head coach specializes in motivation, those low motor guys will be high motor guys. If a new coach comes in next year without that, back to low motor. Of course some players will be high motor all the time and vice versa. Coaches could specialize in things like technique (lower penalties). This could open up to full coaching staffs.

[Mattanite]

Re: Expanded Attributes

This is all awesome stuff man! In fact, I like it so much I'm going to add some to it:

Physical:
- Hand size, also important in the same sense as wingspan. Also, this affects catching, so tie it to catching ratings? Probably related to fumbles as well.
- Maybe tie first step into “explosiveness”? That ability to generate a tremendous amount of force in a short area. This would be graded through broad jump and vertical scores.

I did think of hand size and ultimately concluded that so many traits are already tied to it (carry, catching, snapping, awareness for bad handoffs, hand fighting to an extent), that ultimately I didn't include it in the end.
That was how I imagined first step, short area explosiveness and reaction time off the snap! Goes beyond just straight acceleration.

One thing I would love to see is an “Intensity” rating. A player with high intensity plays with an edge and is a bully, whereas the opposite is the definition of a soft player. This could be a trait, leading me to my last idea…

By the time you factor in Stamina, Season Stamina, Mass, Finish plus other heart & physical ratings I felt you had a decent picture of the effort level of a player to play up to their ratings.

Coachable traits are things like intensity (above), high motor, and technique related things. They are related to the coaching staff of your team. If your head coach specializes in motivation, those low motor guys will be high motor guys. If a new coach comes in next year without that, back to low motor. Of course some players will be high motor all the time and vice versa. Coaches could specialize in things like technique (lower penalties). This could open up to full coaching staffs.

Love the idea of it all being tied to coaching (and scrapping XP), teams would not only scout/draft based on their preferences, but each team would coach players differently. The progression, regression and potential ratings determining how easy and how much a player can be coached.

[Alex the Great]

Re: Expanded Attributes

This is 100% what I want and I had been meaning to write something similar, but you put it in better words than I could've.

As it is, there are not nearly enough attributes to differentiate players between one another.

And as mentioned, I'm also behind scrapping XP and moving towards a coaching-based system. I want to be able to sign an offensive line coach who is really good at teaching hands technique and when he trains my guys they receive a little boost to the training of that attribute.

[Mattanite]

Re: Expanded Attributes

This is 100% what I want and I had been meaning to write something similar, but you put it in better words than I could've.

As it is, there are not nearly enough attributes to differentiate players between one another.

And as mentioned, I'm also behind scrapping XP and moving towards a coaching-based system. I want to be able to sign an offensive line coach who is really good at teaching hands technique and when he trains my guys they receive a little boost to the training of that attribute.

Yeah it can take a while to think these things through but quick enough to write. The doodles took a little bit longer than my normal post too. This is pretty much in line with my other threads I've started (see signature).


That's exactly it, some coaches will teach certain skills better than others and all players learn at different speeds! Players would slowly get better during the season (hopefully!) but the coaches would put most of their time into progression in the offseason.


Hidden potential with vague progression/regression ratings means you don't know if you're player is a bust until the end of their rookie contract. A player could have high hidden potential but low progression value, so they take a while to get there (Morris Claiborne for example). A player with moderate potential but 99 progression rating would pretty much peak as a solid player after their rookie season and not get much better after that, but you don't know that until a few years in when they're not getting better.

[Mattanite]

Re: Expanded Attributes

Concept tiles for QB accuracy, WR route running and defensive pass rush moves are now attached at the end of the original post. Apologies for the rotation (just CTRL+SHIFT+=).


These concepts are just an idea to improve the presentation of the increased amounts of attributes and in a world where they are implemented, I can imagine a Franchise section of the Skills Trainer where it explains the breakdowns on the practice field.

[Ueauvan]

Re: Expanded Attributes

sorry to be a damp squib. you say that position groups are specialised and split out the offensive players, then proceed to lump all defenders in one group. i wouldnt expect a dlineman to act eh same was as either a lber or db, or limit any of the 3 areas to specifics. in reality in my mind ILB is different to OLB and dependent on scheme.
i dont see what this achieves, there are already issues with an "OVR" and how arbitrary that is depending on the ratings czar of the time. how would this logic work for Bill and his "do your job" mantra where players are there for very specific reasons or occasions.

[Mattanite]

Re: Expanded Attributes

sorry to be a damp squib. you say that position groups are specialised and split out the offensive players, then proceed to lump all defenders in one group. i wouldnt expect a dlineman to act eh same was as either a lber or db, or limit any of the 3 areas to specifics. in reality in my mind ILB is different to OLB and dependent on scheme.
i dont see what this achieves, there are already issues with an "OVR" and how arbitrary that is depending on the ratings czar of the time. how would this logic work for Bill and his "do your job" mantra where players are there for very specific reasons or occasions.

Totally understand your perspective on this and my feelings are aligned with you there (See position flexibility thread for that). The coach scheme archetype would weight % different defensive skills so that a CB, whilst being presented with all defensive skills, the finesse and power moves may only count for a fraction of the skill OVR towards the Big8 unless the coach scheme was looking for example a Run Stuff/Playmaker Nickel CB.


I thought about splitting DL, Pass Rusher, LB, DB (or CB, S) but there is so much overlap between one group to the next that I did lump them together for ease of explanation. Awareness would work differently between groups but a lot of it is still based on matchup (DB vs WR, DL vs OL, LB vs HB/TE) so again there is a bit of overlap in function there too.


This is how scheme archetypes work anyway at the moment and wouldn't want to shift too far from that, just expand the archetypes and position options (3rd Down HB archetype, Nickel MLB2 archetype e.g. for Redskins/Cardinals).

[vrtkolman]

Re: Expanded Attributes

I did think of hand size and ultimately concluded that so many traits are already tied to it (carry, catching, snapping, awareness for bad handoffs, hand fighting to an extent), that ultimately I didn't include it in the end.
That was how I imagined first step, short area explosiveness and reaction time off the snap! Goes beyond just straight acceleration.


By the time you factor in Stamina, Season Stamina, Mass, Finish plus other heart & physical ratings I felt you had a decent picture of the effort level of a player to play up to their ratings.




Love the idea of it all being tied to coaching (and scrapping XP), teams would not only scout/draft based on their preferences, but each team would coach players differently. The progression, regression and potential ratings determining how easy and how much a player can be coached.

I appreciate the coaching trait feedback. Originally the plan was to just scope it to the existing trait system as that is pretty silly. I shouldn't be able to use just one week of experience and make a lazy, low motor player into a high motor guy for this rest of his career. Same thing with QB traits. The traits would be completely dependent on coaching and not upgrade-able.

I see how applying these to ratings would be good too. Thinking more on this, I could see this being immersive in franchise mode as well with "Coaching Decisions" or something. Example, your star player is dogging it in practice, do you call him out in the media (getting your other players in line but possibly ruining the relationship with said star player), or ignore it and give the rest of your team permission to dog it as well?

Really I'm for scrapping the current EXP system and putting that all into a really detailed coaching EXP/attribute system. Right now coaches are pretty useless in this game, and in my opinion they are the most important part of the team.

[Mattanite]

Re: Expanded Attributes

A Tale of Three QBs

So in spirit of expanded attributes I thought it would be fun to tell the tale of three QBs in regards to hidden potential, progression and regression (with illustrations to boot).

Once upon a time, there were three prospective 1st round QBs who had all the scouts scratching their heads:

• Drake Gortles - He was everything you look for in a QB, tall, built, cannon for an arm but his mental acuity was somewhat questionable
• Donny Namziel - He was electric, a playmaker, he made you love football but there was something about his heart that made you pause
• Eddy Ridgewater - Quiet but solid, a true team mate but never excelling in the eye test

The three QBs were eventually all drafted in the first round and the scouts and coaches put them through their paces.

• Drake Gortles did okay his rookie year and then excelled in his sophmore season when his team brought the QB whisperer to town. He progressed well under this QB coach despite being of modest potential. However, once the QB coach was gone, Drake stumbled and stalled in his development for the next few seasons until one day a light bulb lit up above his head. He finally got it! He found his brain! But by this point, a decline in progression and regression meant that it was too late to achieve his full potential, but did well as a successful journeyman until his retirement.
• Donny Namziel was flash with cash now he was on a team. The coaches got a look at his heart, but realised he wasn't "all in" when it came to the game. He didn't do well in the clutch, or with morale, he sunk team chemistry and the coaches realised despite the high physical and playmaking skills, his potential was limited by his lack of heart and intangibles. Donny was cut and spent years bouncing around the league, entertaining with his flashy play that was just a flash in the pan.
• Eddy Rridgewater came last and was humbled by it. The coaches got to meet this kid and realised he had great intangibles and his heart was in the right place! He progressed quickly under great coaches early on despite a lack of size and questions about his slight frame. Ultimately disaster struck and a freak injury caused a severe regression in Eddy. He eventually found his courage and recovered, proceeding to work his way back up but the pundits would always wonder how high his potential was if that injury never happened. Eddy found success as a solid field general, leaning on his sharp wits and cheery morale over his lack of physicality and size

And then all three were buggered when the shining knight Eric Barr was taken in the 2nd round and put them all to shame...

The drawings below illustrate my idea of how developing a player in Madden could be. Potential is hidden and acts as a soft ceiling to a players OVR. The progression rating starts off at its peak and slowly declines with age as that player becomes more of a known commodity. Good coaching combined with high progression means players hit their potential faster and more consistently. The regression attribute slowly decreases with age which increases the chance and magnitude of a player regressing. Starting off with a high regression attribute holds off the effects of father time a little bit longer but injuries can chip away at this attribute. A good trainer helps keep father time away too! :P

[Mouthoff33]

Re: Expanded Attributes

Genius and I love the detail.

I think the only thing I would add would be "Escapability" for QBs. This trait would work in conjunction with the players agility and acceleration to determine how, and how quickly, the quarterback rolls out of or escapes the pocket when under pressure. A 99 rating would mean the QB can jet out of the pocket like Russell Wilson, a 50 rated QB would stutter step or take a moment of the delay between the button press and the escape, and a 1 rating would have a QB never escaping the pocket quickly enough to escape a sack.

Again, great work on going through the detail and intricacy of these ratings.

[Mattanite]

Re: Expanded Attributes

I thought this article was good at explaining the need to further expand the pass rush moves but also to make it about the matchup over the whole game, the chess game between two athletes if you will.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1239369-breaking-down-the-art-of-the-pass-rush-like-never-before

Also, to back up the need for hand fighting at a lot of positions and just how important hands are to a players game, I present T.J. Watt's scouting report on WalterFootball:

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2017tjwatt.php

[Mattanite]

Re: Expanded Attributes

Genius and I love the detail.

I think the only thing I would add would be "Escapability" for QBs. This trait would work in conjunction with the players agility and acceleration to determine how, and how quickly, the quarterback rolls out of or escapes the pocket when under pressure. A 99 rating would mean the QB can jet out of the pocket like Russell Wilson, a 50 rated QB would stutter step or take a moment of the delay between the button press and the escape, and a 1 rating would have a QB never escaping the pocket quickly enough to escape a sack.

Again, great work on going through the detail and intricacy of these ratings.

This is already achieved in a basic (not always working) way with the trait system. What you're describing there I think is more of a need for a tendency system like NBA2k has, it's not about how good they're doing it but about what they're doing and when. Tendencies could be tied to attributes, so a QB with high playmaker stat AND scramble trait would take off even more, even to the point of run first over pass. Otherwise, "first step" could be used for QB's leaving their initial stance?


This is one of the reasons I split out playmaker as a big skill, a passer with low skill (accuracy) can still have a decent OVR if they have great physicals, intangibles, heart and playmaker(See Tebow, Tim)... but then you need to know your talent on your roster. You wont be passing too much in this case.


WR with poor catching still make teams if they have playmaking skills too! HBs is all about the playmaker!

[TMJOHNS18]

Re: Expanded Attributes

I'm all for more ratings if they can truly bring uniqueness to each player, which has always been something hard to identify on the 0-99 scale in the game. We can see how a guy with 98 spd would be faster than a guy with 78 spd, but many of the ratings appear to modify success rates and not truly showcase who the player is.

For example, in my current franchise my starting HB is Mike Gillislee. He's now 30 years old and 73ovr. He has only 82spd, acc in the 70s, and his elu/trk ratings are in the 70s. Yet he is capable of taking the ball to the house anytime he gets a touch. Nothing in his ratings show this, but game after game he's always tough to tackle. In my week 1 game he ran for 197 yards and 2 scores in the first HALF of the game. He bounced off defenders, broke tackles and outran the Rams defense for two long scores. In the second half, up big, I sat him for a younger HB. This HB is in his third year, higher overall, higher speed (94), high 80s elusive, overall on the ratings scale better in every way. Yet he finishes the game with 60 yards on 18 carries. He can only get out of a couple tackles, can't put a move on any defender, can't do much at all.

If I needed a HB out of the FA pool, I'd never give Gillislee a shot, his age, lower physical and position skills are counter intuitive. But he just plays better than all my other backs. The CPU is unable to make a decision like this. They behave too cold and calculated. That 5th round gem will never have a shot because he's stuck behind an aging vet averaging 1.2 ypc. By the time to make it to FA (if not cut) they will never be able to reach full potential. Yet, every preseason for 4 years they averaged 6.5 ypc to the vets 1.2.

I'm sure we've all had those players that appear to outperform their ratings. Guys who just seem to play above or below their numbers. Which I'm all for. The only problem I have with the system is the numbers. The visual of the numbers. The game telling me that this player should be better at doing something, yet they aren't. Which, again, is fine. Happens all the time in real life, and it's going to happen during the draft this week when guys taken in the first round will never have half the career of some guys getting picked on day three.

The problem I have though is that with Madden being a game, being a program, these numbers should be a solid indicator of who is better, a true indicator of skill difference.

Take Le'Veon Bell. He ganders around, hops left and right, and generally takes his time hitting the hole. He's patient. But how does that translate into a rating? Is his BCV 99, 98? Other elite RBs will also have high BCV, does a 96 vs 98 BCV runner truly run different? At times we see guys move from scheme to scheme and their 'eliteness' is proven true. They are a beast regardless. But some cannot, some struggle, and some are shown to be more scheme dependent. Madden doesn't have that. If a guy is great on Sunday he is rated elite on Madden. When FA in 2019 comes around, he joins a completely different team, different system, and it's no biggie for him.



My overall point here I'd love to see an expansion in the ratings. But I'd also love to see a reduction in the ratings scale, so that each rating matters more and it's the combination of ratings creating the player. Which I think your expansion of ratings could help differentiate the players more. But, if EA is still on a 0-99 scale, with players continuing to hover around the same range, then there is a whole mess more ratings not making much more of a difference.

On a side note, in my perfect madden. 90% of all ratings are hidden. Really like your progression idea. Really want a dynamic, want contract extensions to be risky. I'd want the ability to line up a player at any spot I wanted, so all would be rated. Simple letter grades/scout info (like HC09 scouting feedback) would maybe tell me putting Brady at ILB was F- F- F- "Not a good idea coach."

Plus, scheme knowledge would be good, since the game is still on the schemes idea make players 'learn' them, not walk into day one as studs.

[Mattanite]

Re: Expanded Attributes

I'm all for more ratings if they can truly bring uniqueness to each player, which has always been something hard to identify on the 0-99 scale in the game. We can see how a guy with 98 spd would be faster than a guy with 78 spd, but many of the ratings appear to modify success rates and not truly showcase who the player is.

For example, in my current franchise my starting HB is Mike Gillislee. He's now 30 years old and 73ovr. He has only 82spd, acc in the 70s, and his elu/trk ratings are in the 70s. Yet he is capable of taking the ball to the house anytime he gets a touch. Nothing in his ratings show this, but game after game he's always tough to tackle. In my week 1 game he ran for 197 yards and 2 scores in the first HALF of the game. He bounced off defenders, broke tackles and outran the Rams defense for two long scores. In the second half, up big, I sat him for a younger HB. This HB is in his third year, higher overall, higher speed (94), high 80s elusive, overall on the ratings scale better in every way. Yet he finishes the game with 60 yards on 18 carries. He can only get out of a couple tackles, can't put a move on any defender, can't do much at all.

If I needed a HB out of the FA pool, I'd never give Gillislee a shot, his age, lower physical and position skills are counter intuitive. But he just plays better than all my other backs. The CPU is unable to make a decision like this. They behave too cold and calculated. That 5th round gem will never have a shot because he's stuck behind an aging vet averaging 1.2 ypc. By the time to make it to FA (if not cut) they will never be able to reach full potential. Yet, every preseason for 4 years they averaged 6.5 ypc to the vets 1.2.

I'm sure we've all had those players that appear to outperform their ratings. Guys who just seem to play above or below their numbers. Which I'm all for. The only problem I have with the system is the numbers. The visual of the numbers. The game telling me that this player should be better at doing something, yet they aren't. Which, again, is fine. Happens all the time in real life, and it's going to happen during the draft this week when guys taken in the first round will never have half the career of some guys getting picked on day three.

The problem I have though is that with Madden being a game, being a program, these numbers should be a solid indicator of who is better, a true indicator of skill difference.

Take Le'Veon Bell. He ganders around, hops left and right, and generally takes his time hitting the hole. He's patient. But how does that translate into a rating? Is his BCV 99, 98? Other elite RBs will also have high BCV, does a 96 vs 98 BCV runner truly run different? At times we see guys move from scheme to scheme and their 'eliteness' is proven true. They are a beast regardless. But some cannot, some struggle, and some are shown to be more scheme dependent. Madden doesn't have that. If a guy is great on Sunday he is rated elite on Madden. When FA in 2019 comes around, he joins a completely different team, different system, and it's no biggie for him.



My overall point here I'd love to see an expansion in the ratings. But I'd also love to see a reduction in the ratings scale, so that each rating matters more and it's the combination of ratings creating the player. Which I think your expansion of ratings could help differentiate the players more. But, if EA is still on a 0-99 scale, with players continuing to hover around the same range, then there is a whole mess more ratings not making much more of a difference.

On a side note, in my perfect madden. 90% of all ratings are hidden. Really like your progression idea. Really want a dynamic, want contract extensions to be risky. I'd want the ability to line up a player at any spot I wanted, so all would be rated. Simple letter grades/scout info (like HC09 scouting feedback) would maybe tell me putting Brady at ILB was F- F- F- "Not a good idea coach."

Plus, scheme knowledge would be good, since the game is still on the schemes idea make players 'learn' them, not walk into day one as studs.

A great contribution, thanks!

I definitely agree with your statement regarding how tough it is to differentiate players. Under the expanded attributes system your plodding hb would have a poor physical rating but a whole host of great skill, intangible and heart ratings that a team might decide is more important. I believe they need different running styles like they have for the QB throwing motions which also might help differentiate as some might run high for more fumbles or run low for more trucks.

If you check my signature there are links to other threads about position flexibility and a badge system that might interest you. The badge system attempts to differentiate players talents that can't be measured on a 00-99 scale like being a free agent or fantastic locker room presence.

Potential and progression needs to be a balance between the players and coaches. Some players eat film and learn but need good coaches for guidance. Some players think all the need are their physical talents and can only go so far despite good coaching.

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