Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

[SloeyEZ]

Not sure if this thread will be closed or not but I have to ask the question.

Is there any way to stop the Draft Class threads that list all the players and all their attributes?

I realize that we each have the choice/responsibility to not look at the thread, but the problem is, we aren't dealing with single player games anymore. These threads are destroying the integrity of online leagues.

It is hard enough to find 31 other like-minded players that enjoy the same type of Madden game with the same rules, strategies, and styles. Add to that you have to police players who use "cheese" plays, or manipulate rules to their advantage, which is easy enough to police. BUT policing players that obliterate the integrity of the online game by using a thread that essentially allows them to scout every prospect without using a single scouting point, and having to wait until you've played a full year online before you find out these players will destroy your league is not acceptable in any manner.

Part of our responsibility on this forum is to protect the integrity of our game that we love. Cheaters will always cheat, and they may say it isn't cheating, it makes the game easier, or more enjoyable for them, but now with the move to online leagues, this "cheating" is no longer a personal choice of one person.

There must be some precedence for closing a thread that reveals damaging information about a game on OS, isn't there? If not, is this at least a discussion that can be had?

OS doesn't allow, badgering, insulting, demeaning, or abusive posts to ensure that all members can enjoy this forum and be assured that it is a safe, quality, informational, reliable source and place of community. Isn't information that damages the enjoyment of the game for others just as important and relative to the same principle as closing/banning threads that ruin the enjoyment as forum members? Seems like protecting the integrity of the game should be just as much a part of the TOS as enjoying the forum itself.

These are the lines that I copied from the TOS that I believe are applicable to Draft Threads that reveal hidden information with my comments in italics:

• Conduct
  Every member on this site will be held responsible for their behavior to others. On this site you will treat other members in a respectful and courteous manner. There will be no personal attacks on any member by another. **Maybe a stretch, but providing cheating methods is a personal attack on a person's enjoyment of the game and forum.
• Constructive Criticism
  We allow all opinions on Operation Sports. But if you want to be negative, it needs to be constructive. Bashing a game developer is not constructive at all, for any reason. Bashing a game period is not constructive. Whining/complaining/acting like a middle schooler is not constructive. If you want to be constructive, say what is wrong with the game specifically. Any negativity that is not constructive will not be tolerated. **Arguable that there is nothing constructive about draft threads that reveal hidden information that is meant to be earned in the game. I guess I can ask, if this were an MMORPG...would OS (of the mmorpg world) allow Gold Sellers to post how to buy gold in the game? If they would, then I am completely wrong about draft threads being allowed.
• Trolling
  Trolling is posting with the intent of creating a negative reaction from one or multiple posters. Essentially - don't post to draw attention to yourself, don't attack other posters, don't bash things just because you can, and don't try to be the poster that is the "cool kid". Be mature when posting.**Depending on how adverse the reaction to draft threads are/become, it can easily turn into trolling.
• Administrators/Moderators/Other Staff
  The staff on Operation Sports are here to help you enjoy sports gaming. We are here to make your time on these forums enjoyable, and to make it easy for you to find the information you need about all sports games.**Again, forum members providing information that destroys the integrity of the game we are trying to enjoy does not make the forums enjoyable. It turns them into land mines :\
• Rumors/Hearsay/Agendas/"If you don't know the answer, shut up"
  If someone posts a question, and you don't know the answer, don't reply. Don't post some rumor you heard somewhere. If you don't know a fact, you don't post. Period. Any spreading of rumors/hearsay/agendas will be dealt with immediately. **Spreading agendas includes information on how to cheat?
• VIP's
  You will notice we have many VIP's who post here, designated by their name in a purple color. Many of them are game developers or guests at Operation Sports. They are to be respected at all times. If you want to interact with our VIP's, you are to keep the discussion mature and in a professional manner. Any type of attack will not be tolerated. **A thread that ruins the enjoyment of the game for others, that could possibly cause them not to play the game any longer or buy the game in the future seems detrimental to those that created the game?

• Copyrighted Material
  Operation Sports board users agree not to post any material that is protected by copyright, trademark or other proprietary right without the express permission of the owner(s) of said copyright, trademark or other proprietary right. **Isn't the draft information hidden inside the game considered copyrighted material that should not be reprinted without permission?

[pinksheets]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Any efforts to stop this are pointless.

If you're worried about an online CCM, what do you have to gain by eliminating the info from this site? People who want that info will get it elsewhere. You can't stop that, so it's probably better to have the info available to everyone rather than the few who will seek it out.

I've been in online franchies prior to this year and the draft guides were always readily available. In fact, if you went through some of the proxy sites that act as league hosts for personnel moves and record keeping, it's usually the case that the player potential and all ratings were openly listed during the draft. Even pre-schemes, the A potential guys were often passed up for lesser potential guys that had attributes that other owners were after in particular. Even with all of the information readily available, I think drafts among human owners can still be very dynamic.

Either way, you can't stop the information from getting out, at best you can limit it only to the dishonest types you're worried about, which means they benefit and others don't.

Also: This is information that should be available to be used at the discretion of offline CCM users without question. If you want to make certain limitations in an online CCM, fine, but that doesn't mean the rest of the class has to go that way to protect your online CCM that frankly, nobody here could care less about. People come to this site for all kinds of information, including things like this, so let them have at it.

[TheDelta]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Any efforts to stop this are pointless.

This. Banishing the thread from this site would accomplish exactly nothing. This is the internet, information that has been published will not just be deleted, people who want to use it will find that guide someone else, and the guide will be created because there is demand and people willing to put work into it, as simple as that.

[BTownSlinger]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Everything is tailored to you online gamers, it leaves little for offliners like myself. I like it, I see it has having a good scouting department.

Deal with it.

[roll2tide]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

I realize that we each have the choice/responsibility to not look at the thread, but the problem is, we aren't dealing with single player games anymore. These threads are destroying the integrity of online leagues.

This. You have an individual choice. I get no say so in yours, you get no say so in mine.

Part of our responsibility on this forum is to protect the integrity of our game that we love. Cheaters will always cheat, and they may say it isn't cheating, it makes the game easier, or more enjoyable for them, but now with the move to online leagues, this "cheating" is no longer a personal choice of one person.

Uhm, no....we really don't. We're not "all in this together" or something. We are a group of people who enjoy a common game and try to provide info to one another and express our thoughts and opinions on said game. However, we all play the game differently, for different reasons, with different objectives. There are some common themes among us, but they are loose and are not really defined.

As for these guides....they exist. Period. If not here then somewhere else. And think about the approach to weeding out league members who use them. How many star development players gets you booted? 5? What if I draft 4? What if i draft 3 star guys and 3 guys with a dev of 2? Can a guy get lucky? What if had this draft in another CCM....online or off?

It's pointless.

[Champion8877]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Even if the draft class threads did not exist, it isn't hard for a person to find a draft class on their own. For example if I were to hypothetically be in an online league and we got a draft class with John Doe as the top QB prospect, I could simply start an offline CCM, save after preseason week 4, and just keep re-loading it until I got the John Doe class and then sim the season and see the ip guys. The draft class guides are essentially this same process, just sped up a bit.

[californ14]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Seems this issue falls on the shoulders of EA/Tiburon.....They need to create a dynamic and random draft system that cannot be duplicated....

Certain people will always try to find a way to loophole the integrity of a system for their own desires, with ill regard to others....Still some others will try to circumvent a system due to the fact that the system is poor....Madden is an example of both....The draft classes are an example of people that wish to find any advantage possible, IMO, regardless of how the action they do relates to keeping a balanced game as it was intended, when playing with others, (cheaters) IMO; because basically, the draft class system in Madden is not broken....The latter are the types that do things to compensate for the poor building of the product to begin with, I believe many refer to as (cheesers)....They create things like those well known cheese plays and techniques, which wouldn't be needed or be desired, if it was not for the poor AI in the first place; thus the compensating type....Why would I need cheese "A" if zone defense worked as it was supposed to? Or If the Pass Rush was actually a pass rush?

Oh well, my 2 cents....

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

So, I agree with most of you on most of your points.

1) Cheaters will find a way to cheat no matter what. I think I even mentioned that in the op.

2) It is a matter of freedom of choice/speech which I strongly uphold and believe if something offends you, that is your problem, not the writer/speaker's. If you don't like it, move on.

3) Most definitely agree that having a draft class that is dynamic would solve all the problems. If EA changed the attributes of different players randomly, there would be no set draft class. It's not even like there are any names we recognize and expect them to be a certain type player.

However, I strongly disagree with the logic of at least everyone has access to it. I, for one, would never use it because I don't cheat. If I did, I'd still be playing solitaire where I can cheat every time. The logic that if one cheats everyone should have the info to cheat is sad. That's more like saying if one person robs a bank then we should all be able to walk into a bank and take whatever money we want because others are doing it anyway. Yeah, really makes no sense.

Anyway, overall, your arguments are valid and I guess I knew it was futile attempt, I'm just surprised more people were not upset about the threads. Maybe that says something about the state of the Madden game....everyone is just looking for the easy way out, buy the prima cheat book and win...because apparently nothing else matters...based on the responses so far.

[TheDelta]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Anyway, overall, your arguments are valid and I guess I knew it was futile attempt, I'm just surprised more people were not upset about the threads. Maybe that says something about the state of the Madden game....everyone is just looking for the easy way out, buy the prima cheat book and win...because apparently nothing else matters...based on the responses so far.

Way to go, dude, insulting everyone not agreeing with you, that's classy. Bonus point for basically ignoring everything that has been written. You just came closer to violating the TOS than any of those draft guide threads ever did.

[RyanMoody21]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Seems this issue falls on the shoulders of EA/Tiburon.....They need to create a dynamic and random draft system that cannot be duplicated....

I hope this doesn't get lost in the shuffle. I have never seen the reason behind not having dynamic classes. Why not have every year be a different random generation of players.

That's the only way to remove these shortcuts, make the scouting and mean something and perhaps an accomplishment would be earned not given.

Then again, that method would remove a chapter from guidebooks.

[roll2tide]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

So, I agree with most of you on most of your points.


However, I strongly disagree with the logic of at least everyone has access to it. I, for one, would never use it because I don't cheat

This is the part your having trouble with, SloeyEZ. If a door is unlocked, then everyone has an equal chance to open it. Just because your the kind of person who would never open a door in no way diminishes your opportunity to do so. You do have access to the draft guides. that you choose not to use them has no bearing on your level of access.

Secondly....what, precisely, is cheating? And who decides? You? Why? You have some very narrow views sometimes and in this case it is preventing you from accepting some basic facts....

A)Cheating is a subjective term in this case.
B)You do not get to define cheating for anyone but yourself.
C)Just because you call it cheating doesn't mean that I do.
D)There can be no defined winner when debating a subjective subject.

It's not that i don't get your point....I do. I play in leagues myself. The problem is that your trying to take your opinion and equate it to a defined term(cheating) and project it on others. For you to say, "If I use a guide I feel like I'm cheating", is fine. For you to say, "If you use a guide then your a cheater", isn't.

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

This is the part your having trouble with, SloeyEZ. If a door is unlocked, then everyone has an equal chance to open it. Just because your the kind of person who would never open a door in no way diminishes your opportunity to do so. You do have access to the draft guides. that you choose not to use them has no bearing on your level of access.

Secondly....what, precisely, is cheating? And who decides? You? Why? You have some very narrow views sometimes and in this case it is preventing you from accepting some basic facts....

A)Cheating is a subjective term in this case.
B)You do not get to define cheating for anyone but yourself.
C)Just because you call it cheating doesn't mean that I do.
D)There can be no defined winner when debating a subjective subject.

It's not that i don't get your point....I do. I play in leagues myself. The problem is that your trying to take your opinion and equate it to a defined term(cheating) and project it on others. For you to say, "If I use a guide I feel like I'm cheating", is fine. For you to say, "If you use a guide then your a cheater", isn't.

Good point Tide, so you made me look up the definition from Dictionary.com:
cheat

   [cheet] Show IPA
verb (used with object) 1. to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2. to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3. to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.




verb (used without object) 4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.

5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.

7. Informal . to be sexually unfaithful (often followed by on ): Her husband knew she had been cheating all along. He cheated on his wife.





8. a person who acts dishonestly, deceives, or defrauds: He is a cheat and a liar.

9. a fraud; swindle; deception: The game was a cheat.

10. Law . the fraudulent obtaining of another's property by a pretense or trick.

11. an impostor: The man who passed as an earl was a cheat.

I believe definition 6 is most applicable, the draft being a "test" and the player attributes being the "answers". If you can't see that in your reasoning, then we can't really debate any further and just agree to disagree.

I also believe def#3 is applicable in that people that play against people using the draft thread answers are deprived of the strategy of using your limited scouting points to draft the correct players.

I'll admit, I've always had a bias against people that use Prima "walk-through" guides to play a game where they are given step-by-step directions on winning a game. I think that mind-set has a great deal to do with the state of society today which is about wanting everything handed to them for free rather than working and enjoying the satisfaction of earning success. But that we won't speak further of since that borders on politics.

Like I said originally though, people can play the game however they want when they are playing their own game. But as soon as you are playing online, with others, you have (i believe) a responsibility to treat others with respect and trust. If everyone that uses the draft thread identifies them as such, then no problem, you can't join my league but have fun playing in a league with others that do, or do not care if you do. More power to you, no problem. I don't see anyone volunteering this information when joining a league however which (to me) is deceitful.

Having said that, I will change my original position from not having the threads, to asking people that use them to be up front about it if playing in an online league. There, problem solved and everyone can continue to play how they like to play and there is no censorship which is the way I prefer it!!

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

Way to go, dude, insulting everyone not agreeing with you, that's classy. Bonus point for basically ignoring everything that has been written. You just came closer to violating the TOS than any of those draft guide threads ever did.

I have not ignored anything written, I take these forums rather seriously (if not too seriously) and can be persuaded from my "opinion" when presented with credible arguments (as Tide has done to change my position). I have always been very careful not to be insulting on this forum and I never have. Not sure how you construed any of my posts to be "insulting everyone not agreeing with you" but I definitely did not intend to insult. If saying that reading a prima guide and cheating yourself of the satisfaction of "working" through a game is insulting to you, or anyone else, then that is an issue they have to deal with and why they feel insulted as my speech or words was not in any way insulting.

Sorry you felt insulted. I wasn't insulting in any way.

[Dempseylicious23]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

I have not ignored anything written, I take these forums rather seriously (if not too seriously) and can be persuaded from my "opinion" when presented with credible arguments (as Tide has done to change my position). I have always been very careful not to be insulting on this forum and I never have. Not sure how you construed any of my posts to be "insulting everyone not agreeing with you" but I definitely did not intend to insult. If saying that reading a prima guide and cheating yourself of the satisfaction of "working" through a game is insulting to you, or anyone else, then that is an issue they have to deal with and why they feel insulted as my speech or words was not in any way insulting.

Sorry you felt insulted. I wasn't insulting in any way.

When I work to make a living at a career, I do it for a couple of reasons.

#1) Because I enjoy what I do for a living.
#2) Because I want to make enough money to provide for myself a certain lifestyle.
#3) Because I make extra money to use on 'leisure activities"

I think a lot of people would define things like Xbox and Madden as "leisure activites". Working is stressful, many people don't want to be stressed while trying to enjoy their downtime. You may see satisfaction in "working through a game", but many others see maximum satisfaction in winning the game because it's not really fun to lose. If there is something present that can reduce their need to stress and work through the game and at the same time increase their odds of winning, they will do it.

Even in the NFL where players are paid to play (thus becoming their work), they cheat. Look at Ike Taylor. He's considered one of the most dynamic cornerbacks in the NFL, but he's also one of the most flagged players in the NFL. Linemen routinely hold on offense, many kick and punt returns get called back for illegal blocks or holding, Greg Schiano is simulating snap counts in Tampa. Some of those may be simple mistakes, but a lot of it is active cheating.


Because you conceptually define playing Madden as "work", while other people define it as "leisure", you will never see eye to eye on this issue. To you, using a guide is cheating. Would you consider using a sherpa and oxygen and a helicopter to get to base camp to climb Mount Everest cheating? Those are types of guides. To other people, using a guide is just a way to help for everyone and it wouldn't be very smart to ignore it because chances are, everyone else is using it.


Trying to look down your nose at other people and act holier-than-thou because you don't use a resource that others use in a leisure game is not going to get you very far with the majority of users here.

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

When I work to make a living at a career, I do it for a couple of reasons.

#1) Because I enjoy what I do for a living.
#2) Because I want to make enough money to provide for myself a certain lifestyle.
#3) Because I make extra money to use on 'leisure activities"

I think a lot of people would define things like Xbox and Madden as "leisure activites". Working is stressful, many people don't want to be stressed while trying to enjoy their downtime. You may see satisfaction in "working through a game", but many others see maximum satisfaction in winning the game because it's not really fun to lose. If there is something present that can reduce their need to stress and work through the game and at the same time increase their odds of winning, they will do it.

Even in the NFL where players are paid to play (thus becoming their work), they cheat. Look at Ike Taylor. He's considered one of the most dynamic cornerbacks in the NFL, but he's also one of the most flagged players in the NFL. Linemen routinely hold on offense, many kick and punt returns get called back for illegal blocks or holding, Greg Schiano is simulating snap counts in Tampa. Some of those may be simple mistakes, but a lot of it is active cheating.


Because you conceptually define playing Madden as "work", while other people define it as "leisure", you will never see eye to eye on this issue. To you, using a guide is cheating. Would you consider using a sherpa and oxygen and a helicopter to get to base camp to climb Mount Everest cheating? Those are types of guides. To other people, using a guide is just a way to help for everyone and it wouldn't be very smart to ignore it because chances are, everyone else is using it.


Trying to look down your nose at other people and act holier-than-thou because you don't use a resource that others use in a leisure game is not going to get you very far with the majority of users here.

Agreed. I don't use extra resources, others can. Just two different styles, neither better than the other, just different. This really is about online leagues. Online leagues are about finding players that play the same way you play. Like I said earlier, people can play however they want to play. If you're going to join an online league, just let the commissioner know what kind of player you are.

All players are equal. I apologize for making it sound judgmental when I was expressing my opinion which I am also entitled to do on here. Again, I apologize if my opinion is interpreted as insulting to any specific person as that was not my intent.

So to close this argument before it becomes more than it should:

Everyone can play and use whatever resources they wish to enjoy the game. We will all agree and disagree with how others play and choose to use their leisure time. All I want to suggest is when you play in an online league, identify yourself as the player you are so you can ensure that your league is fun for you and everyone else because you are all in the same boat

Again, my apologies for ill feelings, my opinion is only that, my opinion and I stated it because the enjoyment of online leagues is being ruined after a full year of playing because only then does it surface that those that use draft threads ruin the draft for those in that league that do not. To ask to not have the threads was wrong. I should have approached it simply as if you use the thread, say you do before you join an online league.