The problems with defense

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  • ggsimmonds
    Hall Of Fame
    • Jan 2009
    • 11235

    #1

    The problems with defense

    Okay so we all know that defense is a little under powered in this game, but why? Well here are few things on the defensive side of the ball that are not replicated in Ma**en:

    1. In real life defenses read/react/alter coverage based on what the offense does.
    Here are a few examples : http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2013/...with-read.html


    This is not in Madden. What we have are static plays.

    2. In Madden all QBs have perfect footwork, mechanics, and timing with their WRs. Watch a Patriots or Broncos game this season. At some point I am fairly confident you will hear the commentator praise Brady/Manning's footwork. This is not a meaningless cliche, their superb footwork helps them to shred zone defenses. I will not go into a lengthy discussion as to why, instead see for yourself by watching them and then the lesser QBs. Footwork is part of the reason why they are so skilled at going through progressions. Not that it matters because...

    3. All QBs are experts at going through progressions. Ever here the phrase "one read QB?" Not in Madden, they all are like Montana.

    4. WR route running matters, but not as much as it should. Short version: Even "bad" route runners run good routes.

    5. Zone coverage is limited. Ever hear of Pattern-matching defense? Well apparently the folks over at EA have no clue what it is. Here is a very brief rundown: The zone coverage in game is the basic "spot-watching" coverage. The defender drops back to a predefined spot and watches the QBs eyes. When the QB releases the ball, the defender makes a break on the ball. So all the talk you hear from some posters of how defenders ignore players in their zone is correct. They do do that, but they are suppose to. Breaking on every WR who enters your zone is how you get out of position, and this what disciplined defense references. Here is the problem: As previously mentioned every QB has excellent footwork and and is great at going through his reads. The result is that zone defense kinda sucks because every QB gets the ball out as quickly as the elite real life QBs do and they can read defenses equally as well (even Tebow for crying out loud). Can you ever remember the AI QB missing (i.e. not seeing) a open WR? And spot watching is the only type of zone in the game. Three cheers for EA! Ever call cover three only to see your SS/OLB covering nothing but grass in the flats while the offense runs 4 verts? Sucks doesn't it?

    Read: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ics-zone-blitz

    That does better job of explaining it than I ever could. Basically against that 4 vert play your 3d coverage became Cover 1 man. But again, defenses in Madden are static and don't adapt to the offense.

    6. Familiar with the phrase CBs need a short memory? EA took it to heart because in Madden CBs have no memory at all. You can call Curl Flats 10 straight times and the tenth will work just as good as the first. Coupled with this is the whole atrocious play calling problem. Imagine it is 3rd and 11 for the Baltimore offense. Any football fan knows to protect the sidelines because rumor has it Joe is one of the best at throwing to the sidelines/deep out. What does the AI do? Why they come out in cover 1 with the corners playing off. That is a completion every time (as it should be). But then people scream that DBs can't cover, so what do we do? We adjust sliders to make up for the limited AI but now lining up in trips against a cover 2 and going to the Smash concept doesn't work because we had to sup up the DBs. That is not an acceptable outcome.

    There are more problems, but I don't want to write an entire novel. A short story is enough for one night
  • friscob
    Rookie
    • Jun 2013
    • 0

    #2
    Re: The problems with defense

    I can live with some of the coverage problems even though I'd like to see it get tightened up. My biggest problem is the lack of control i have over a defender when I'm controlling him. I can be strafing w/ a safety in coverage and see a TE break his route off towards the middle of the field and I just can't seem to get my player in position to make a play.
    OS Red Zone

    2014 Cleveland Browns 13-3
    2015 Cleveland Browns 6-1
    GT: MouthyRat

    Comment

    • ggsimmonds
      Hall Of Fame
      • Jan 2009
      • 11235

      #3
      Re: The problems with defense

      Originally posted by friscob
      I can live with some of the coverage problems even though I'd like to see it get tightened up. My biggest problem is the lack of control i have over a defender when I'm controlling him. I can be strafing w/ a safety in coverage and see a TE break his route off towards the middle of the field and I just can't seem to get my player in position to make a play.
      By make a play do you mean get interception? Just swat the ball or flick the hit stick. I've noticed (in NCAA at least) that if I switch to a corner and go for the hit stick the chances that the WR drops the pass increase drastically even if I whiff on the hit. It is like the game tries to reward players for getting on the sticks similar to what NBA 2k does. It is kinda funny, my corner will be 3 yrds away and lunge to the ground and the ball will bounce right off the WR's hands.

      Comment

      • aspengc8
        Rookie
        • Jun 2010
        • 171

        #4
        Re: The problems with defense

        Originally posted by ggsimmonds
        Okay so we all know that defense is a little under powered in this game, but why? Well here are few things on the defensive side of the ball that are not replicated in Ma**en:

        1. In real life defenses read/react/alter coverage based on what the offense does.
        Here are a few examples : http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2013/...with-read.html


        This is not in Madden. What we have are static plays.

        2. In Madden all QBs have perfect footwork, mechanics, and timing with their WRs. Watch a Patriots or Broncos game this season. At some point I am fairly confident you will hear the commentator praise Brady/Manning's footwork. This is not a meaningless cliche, their superb footwork helps them to shred zone defenses. I will not go into a lengthy discussion as to why, instead see for yourself by watching them and then the lesser QBs. Footwork is part of the reason why they are so skilled at going through progressions. Not that it matters because...

        3. All QBs are experts at going through progressions. Ever here the phrase "one read QB?" Not in Madden, they all are like Montana.

        4. WR route running matters, but not as much as it should. Short version: Even "bad" route runners run good routes.

        5. Zone coverage is limited. Ever hear of Pattern-matching defense? Well apparently the folks over at EA have no clue what it is. Here is a very brief rundown: The zone coverage in game is the basic "spot-watching" coverage. The defender drops back to a predefined spot and watches the QBs eyes. When the QB releases the ball, the defender makes a break on the ball. So all the talk you hear from some posters of how defenders ignore players in their zone is correct. They do do that, but they are suppose to. Breaking on every WR who enters your zone is how you get out of position, and this what disciplined defense references. Here is the problem: As previously mentioned every QB has excellent footwork and and is great at going through his reads. The result is that zone defense kinda sucks because every QB gets the ball out as quickly as the elite real life QBs do and they can read defenses equally as well (even Tebow for crying out loud). Can you ever remember the AI QB missing (i.e. not seeing) a open WR? And spot watching is the only type of zone in the game. Three cheers for EA! Ever call cover three only to see your SS/OLB covering nothing but grass in the flats while the offense runs 4 verts? Sucks doesn't it?

        Read: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ics-zone-blitz

        That does better job of explaining it than I ever could. Basically against that 4 vert play your 3d coverage became Cover 1 man. But again, defenses in Madden are static and don't adapt to the offense.

        6. Familiar with the phrase CBs need a short memory? EA took it to heart because in Madden CBs have no memory at all. You can call Curl Flats 10 straight times and the tenth will work just as good as the first. Coupled with this is the whole atrocious play calling problem. Imagine it is 3rd and 11 for the Baltimore offense. Any football fan knows to protect the sidelines because rumor has it Joe is one of the best at throwing to the sidelines/deep out. What does the AI do? Why they come out in cover 1 with the corners playing off. That is a completion every time (as it should be). But then people scream that DBs can't cover, so what do we do? We adjust sliders to make up for the limited AI but now lining up in trips against a cover 2 and going to the Smash concept doesn't work because we had to sup up the DBs. That is not an acceptable outcome.

        There are more problems, but I don't want to write an entire novel. A short story is enough for one night
        Great info man. I've been preaching this stuff for a long time. This is what happens when you have people working on a football game that either don't understand the intricacies of football or never really played beyond pop warner level. APF 2K8 did a pretty good job at this but EA is nowhere close. Nowhere.

        Comment

        • Rezzo503
          Rookie
          • Dec 2011
          • 111

          #5
          Re: The problems with defense

          Good stuff

          I was just talking about this in another thread.

          But in my honest opinion, I don't think it's EA not wanting to do things such as Pattern Matching, I believe they don't have the A.I to do so.

          Like I said, everyone praises Nba 2k... But no team in that game can run the Triangle offense AS IT SHOULD BE. It's simply because we would need super advanced AI. LoL

          Maybe next Gen.

          Comment

          • ggsimmonds
            Hall Of Fame
            • Jan 2009
            • 11235

            #6
            Re: The problems with defense

            Originally posted by Rezzo503
            Good stuff

            I was just talking about this in another thread.

            But in my honest opinion, I don't think it's EA not wanting to do things such as Pattern Matching, I believe they don't have the A.I to do so.

            Like I said, everyone praises Nba 2k... But no team in that game can run the Triangle offense AS IT SHOULD BE. It's simply because we would need super advanced AI. LoL

            Maybe next Gen.
            Its a little of both. Programming the AI to use pattern matching defense would be difficult, but there is also the problem of user control. The vast majority of Madden users would not understand or know the assignments so that would discourage user control.

            Comment

            • ggsimmonds
              Hall Of Fame
              • Jan 2009
              • 11235

              #7
              Re: The problems with defense

              Originally posted by aspengc8
              Great info man. I've been preaching this stuff for a long time. This is what happens when you have people working on a football game that either don't understand the intricacies of football or never really played beyond pop warner level. APF 2K8 did a pretty good job at this but EA is nowhere close. Nowhere.
              It is not that the people at ea don't understand the intricacies of football, the issue is that they are trying to develop a casual friendly football game. Another way of putting it is that it is the gamers who don't understand the intricacies of football.

              Comment

              • dghustla
                Pro
                • Apr 2009
                • 721

                #8
                Re: The problems with defense

                Great Post OP.

                In regard to point 5. and zone coverage. I don't mind spot watching but I think Here is where ratings need to come into play and be a BIG factor.

                75> players should be spot watching.
                76-90 those players need to be reading and reacting and covering guys in their zones.

                90< these are elite coverage guys. They should be recognizing route combinations and running with guys when they realize their is no threat. You gave a great example of some one running 4 verts. elite zone defenders should recognize when their is no underneath threat and continue to stretch with the WRs.

                Comment

                • atc43
                  Rookie
                  • Apr 2009
                  • 232

                  #9
                  Re: The problems with defense

                  Glad there are others that understand why the coverage and defense overall in madden is trash.

                  Coming from playing DB in high school and college I cant tell you how much it pains me to see a corner sitting in the flats waiting for a route that isnt coming when the#1 and #2 wideouts both run vertical....its extremely discouraging.

                  But again hopefully with the amount of memory available in nextgen systems they can flesh out the defensive AI. I want a true to life read and react defense.

                  And if youre afraid of alienating the casuals who dont understand the intricacies of the game at least give us a Casual/Simulation setting option for god sakes..

                  Comment

                  • dghustla
                    Pro
                    • Apr 2009
                    • 721

                    #10
                    Re: The problems with defense

                    Originally posted by ggsimmonds
                    It is not that the people at ea don't understand the intricacies of football, the issue is that they are trying to develop a casual friendly football game. Another way of putting it is that it is the gamers who don't understand the intricacies of football.

                    Here is my problem with that. Look at the makers of games like Halo, Gears of War, God or War, COD. They have settings for casual users to play. Casual and Normal and then they have Hardcore. Which if a casual gamer played on that level they would rage quit the game. Why is it that sports titles are the only titles sooo overly concerned with the casual gamer experience that hardcore gamers will suffer?

                    Last i checked that's what All-Madden Mode was suppose to be. I remember when I use to play ALL Madden and it was damn near impossible win more than 8-9 games a season. Now 2 loss and undefeated seasons are the norm.

                    I wish that EA would get back to making Rookie and All Pro an easier game play experience where the user do not have to understand or incorporate all of the audibles or controls. And make ALL Madden a hardcore experience where the user is expected to have mastered the controls and more in-depth features of the game.

                    I mean seriously Gears of War creators don't care that casual fans can't beat level 1 on hardcore. Yet the madden team is worried that someone will got 0-16 on their most challenging setting.

                    Comment

                    • Rezzo503
                      Rookie
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 111

                      #11
                      Re: The problems with defense

                      Originally posted by ggsimmonds
                      Its a little of both. Programming the AI to use pattern matching defense would be difficult, but there is also the problem of user control. The vast majority of Madden users would not understand or know the assignments so that would discourage user control.

                      HAHA... Could you imagine the complaints?

                      People would lose their minds lol

                      This was my EXACT point in my other thread. EA has to find a balance. Not everyone knows what a Scrape Exchange means, or any of the D-line Techniques. (Which is bigger than people think in this Gen of madden, as far as basic Gap responsibilities)

                      Not everyone has time to read about the intricacies of football.

                      Like I said in my other post... EA isn't Stupid, there doing the same thing 2k Sports does.
                      Last edited by Rezzo503; 08-26-2013, 10:42 AM.

                      Comment

                      • Ban_Irl
                        Rookie
                        • Jan 2013
                        • 43

                        #12
                        Re: The problems with defense

                        [/quote]We adjust sliders to make up for the limited AI but now lining up in trips against a cover 2 and going to the Smash concept doesn't work because we had to sup up the DBs. That is not an acceptable outcome.

                        There are more problems, but I don't want to write an entire novel. A short story is enough for one night [/quote]

                        Why not use sliders to adjust. Increase the pass rush, lower the accuracy of the QB. etc... Sliders are there for a reason and I'm grateful they do have them.


                        You want great AI? Get a text game.
                        Bottom line is it's a game and if you don't enjoy it then don't play.

                        Comment

                        • ggsimmonds
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 11235

                          #13
                          Re: The problems with defense

                          We adjust sliders to make up for the limited AI but now lining up in trips against a cover 2 and going to the Smash concept doesn't work because we had to sup up the DBs. That is not an acceptable outcome.

                          There are more problems, but I don't want to write an entire novel. A short story is enough for one night [/quote]

                          Why not use sliders to adjust. Increase the pass rush, lower the accuracy of the QB. etc... Sliders are there for a reason and I'm grateful they do have them.


                          You want great AI? Get a text game.
                          Bottom line is it's a game and if you don't enjoy it then don't play.[/quote]


                          Seems like these types of posts show up in every thread.

                          I am glad we have sliders and I always make good use of them. However, ideally sliders should be for things like balancing out stick skills not serving as a workaround for bad AI.

                          For your text game remark, is asking for improved playcalling really asking for too much? We pay money for the only NFL game on the market. I think it is fair to expect that game to be as accurate to the source material as it can be. EA's slogan is "if it's in the game, it's in the game" remember?

                          Protip: One can enjoy something and still have criticisms or ideas to make it better. It is a ridiculous concept I know

                          Comment

                          • EarvGotti
                            MVP
                            • Nov 2009
                            • 2249

                            #14
                            Re: The problems with defense

                            Why not just make a separate hardcore mode for players that want a more realistic football experience?

                            I do not understand why game companies just don't separate modes in order to please everyone.
                            Lineup:
                            PG) Gary Payton
                            SG) '95-'96 Michael Jordan
                            SF) Sapphire Scottie Pippen
                            PF) '95-'96 Dennis Rodman
                            C) Hakeem Olajuwon

                            Comment

                            • ghettogeeksta
                              Banned
                              • Sep 2011
                              • 2632

                              #15
                              Re: The problems with defense

                              Theirs no excuse why they don't have player individuality yet, last night I threw for over 300 with Tebow on the Jags on All-Madden made me want to puke how pitiful this game is Tebow was throwing strikes like he was Brady (you cant adjust sliders for player individuality and tendencies!) No player individuality is the main reason i don't play Ultimate Team seeing the legends play nothing like they do in real life just don't sit right with me. Star players don't stand out from others especially on defense. And it's disrespectful to put put Madden and NBA 2k in the same sentence. Our only hope is that the NFL decides not sell their license exclusively to EA and 2K has a chance to make an NFL game again. lm confident if EA didn't have the exclusive NFL license this gen 2K would have the number 1 football game.
                              Last edited by ghettogeeksta; 08-26-2013, 11:40 AM.

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