CPU Manager Hook

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  • El_MaYiMbE
    MVP
    • Mar 2003
    • 1427

    #1

    CPU Manager Hook

    I am loving the game, but the CPU Manager Hook is very bothersome and really sucks the reality out of the game.

    It seems to me like the CPU Manager Hook is being determined by the relief pitcher's stamina and not necessarily by his performance and/or situation.

    In almost every game, I have ran into a scenario where the CPU Manager brings in a relief pitcher either a MRP or LRP in the middle innings, has arms warming up in the bullpen, but does not go to them because the original RP still has stamina left.

    This is causing a few things to happen:

    1. If you are locked in on the RP, you are going to kill him and CPU Manager never goes to bullpen or mound visit (I think I have seen 1).
    2. Unrealistic pitch counts from relief pitchers (30-50 range)
    3. Unrealistic innings pitched by relief pitchers (3-5 innings)
    4. Runs up score of the game due to ineffective RPs being left in too long.

    All of this is regardless of the situation.
    Here are two examples:

    1. Yankees at Red Sox (CPU) - I am absolutely murdering Rick Porcello. I light him up to the tune of 7 runs in 3 innings pitched. The Sox proceed to bring in their LRP Brian Anderson (he is a technically a starter so his stamina is in mid-70s). I then proceed to tack on 12(!) runs for the next 6 innings on Anderson...I hit back to back to back HRs at one point. He pitched ALL remaining 6 innings and I only saw one mound visit. I beat the Red Sox 20-4. Now, while I understand that when there is a blow out, there is usually a guy who has to take a beating to save the bullpen, and had this been an anomaly, I would have said good job by the CPU....but no...

    2. Yankees at Rangers (CPU) - Tanka vs Moore, both guys give up 4 runs through 5 innings. in the 6th inning Texas brings in Bartolo Colon (LRP w/ 80+ Stamina). Colon pitches Innings 6-9. He came in during a tied game (4-4). promptly gave up the lead in the first 4 batters he faced. In the 9th inning (with over 40 pitches) he was still pitching. He got to face Aaron Judge in a run 1 game, in the 9th. Judge hit a double, they intentionally walked Stanton to load bases for Didi Gregorious. Texas left Colon in the game in the 9th, losing by one with the bases loaded, 1 out, and 50+ pitches under his belt. He should have been out of the game 3+ innings/20 pitches ago. Not once did he get a mound visit, AND there were 2 MRPs warming up since the 6th Inning! The CPU never went to the bullpen. Not even to neutralize Greg Bird (LH) with a lefty specialist, again, in a close 1 run game in the late innings.

    All of this happened with me having the CPU Manager Hook Slider= 9 and CPU Relief Stamina = 3. Meaning I tipped the scales to try and force the CPU to be more likely to go to the pen and they did not, so I don't even want to know how long the leash would be if CPU Manager Hook = Default!

    I have opened a bug about this on TheShowNation.com, but to me this might be the biggest problem in the game at the moment. I would urge anyone who experienced anything similar to this to also report a bug. This logic just seems completely off, and I think somewhere in there this code just is not triggering, because the CPU's Bullpen Management is practically non-existent.

    For the record...this is happening to me in Play Now (Exhibition). Not sure if the bullpen logic is different here vs Franchise, where the CPU does not have to "save" the pitchers arm for the next calendar day. I wait until OSFM Rosters are done to begin Franchise usually, so it will be a while before I test it there.
    Last edited by El_MaYiMbE; 03-25-2018, 10:40 AM.
  • countryboy
    Growing pains
    • Sep 2003
    • 52775

    #2
    Re: CPU Manager Hook

    I haven't had this experience. I just finished a game where Hershiser threw 110 pitches and a complete game. The cpu had guys warm up but didn't use them.

    Also, I played a game earlier where I knocked Nolan Ryan out of the game and the cpu brought in a reliever, Goose Gossage. I got 4 hits and 3 runs off of him over an inning and they pulled him and brought in some one else but I can't remember who it was.

    I'll report back if I run across anything similar but thus far the cpu bullpen management hasn't been bad at all. This is with everything at default.
    I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

    I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


    Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

    Comment

    • El_MaYiMbE
      MVP
      • Mar 2003
      • 1427

      #3
      Re: CPU Manager Hook

      Originally posted by countryboy
      I haven't had this experience. I just finished a game where Hershiser threw 110 pitches and a complete game. The cpu had guys warm up but didn't use them.

      Also, I played a game earlier where I knocked Nolan Ryan out of the game and the cpu brought in a reliever, Goose Gossage. I got 4 hits and 3 runs off of him over an inning and they pulled him and brought in some one else but I can't remember who it was.

      I'll report back if I run across anything similar but thus far the cpu bullpen management hasn't been bad at all. This is with everything at default.
      Hey Country, yeah I would appreciate you keeping an eye out for it. It took me a couple games to realize it was happening (was just excited to play!). But I started seeing a common theme. Still early, but the two examples above were the worst of it. There were definitely some others that were "iffy" too.

      Comment

      • countryboy
        Growing pains
        • Sep 2003
        • 52775

        #4
        Re: CPU Manager Hook

        After last year's manger hook/bullpen decision making, its one thing that I've been watching for. Thus far nothing odd/bad has happened, but I've only played a handful of complete games.

        I'll be sure to report back if I find any oddities.
        I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

        I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


        Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

        Comment

        • tessl
          All Star
          • Apr 2007
          • 5685

          #5
          Re: CPU Manager Hook

          I've seen starting pitcher get to 100 pitchers if the cpu team is winning and I've seen starting pitchers pulled in the 4th inning if the team is losing.

          My advice would be to turn off the DH when you start your franchise. When the pitcher comes up to bat the cpu might pinch hit.

          Comment

          • El_MaYiMbE
            MVP
            • Mar 2003
            • 1427

            #6
            Re: CPU Manager Hook

            Originally posted by tessl
            I've seen starting pitcher get to 100 pitchers if the cpu team is winning and I've seen starting pitchers pulled in the 4th inning if the team is losing.

            My advice would be to turn off the DH when you start your franchise. When the pitcher comes up to bat the cpu might pinch hit.
            My main gripe with this issue is realism. Turning off DH is NOT an option for me to anyone who expects realism from The Show. The issue I described is deeper than just sometimes they do this and sometimes that.

            What I described above is 100% related to CPU logic being off. If others can confirm they experience the same (like I feel I have) I would like for either:

            1. SDS to resolve it (preferable)
            2. OS Community fix via sliders (acceptable)

            However #2 seems unlikely as me changing sliders hasn't yielded proper results, but I could be misdiagnosing the issue.

            Comment

            • zukes
              Pro
              • Mar 2005
              • 703

              #7
              Re: CPU Manager Hook

              I think the OP is not talking about starters, they seem to be working fine, but I too have seen almost every reliever that comes in throw until he is yellow in stamina. There is something going on here.

              Comment

              • El_MaYiMbE
                MVP
                • Mar 2003
                • 1427

                #8
                Re: CPU Manager Hook

                Originally posted by zukes
                I think the OP is not talking about starters, they seem to be working fine, but I too have seen almost every reliever that comes in throw until he is yellow in stamina. There is something going on here.
                Right, it seems like once they go to the pen, usually to an LRP, it seems like it's treating the new pitcher like a starter. Where he has a long leash, and a few runs over 3 or 4 innings is okay by the CPU Manager.

                In real life, and in close games, relievers have relatively short leashes. Also, even if an RP is cruising, teams have "roles". LRPs shouldn't come in in the 6th inning, that is MRP territory. Also, unlike SPs, relief pitchers don't pitch until exhaustion even if they are pitching well. Because they could potentially be used tomorrow.

                Comment

                • ARoid1313
                  Pro
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 859

                  #9
                  Re: CPU Manager Hook

                  I’ve seen this happen many times in 17. Amazingly bad logic by the cpu and needs to be fixed but probably won’t


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                  Comment

                  • aarondmsu
                    Rookie
                    • May 2012
                    • 185

                    #10
                    Re: CPU Manager Hook

                    On a separate but tangential note, another issue I've always had with the manager hook is with regard to the starter himself (and this applies to RTTS or player lock in franchise mode). In previous versions, without exception, after the 6th inning, if you are up by 1 run and allowed a base runner (by any means, be it walk, hit or even error), you would get yanked regardless of your pitch count, how effective you were to that point, etc. You could be up 1-0 in the 7th inning, have a pitch count south of 60, and if a batter reaches base even because he hit a little squiber that the fielder boots, out comes the manager to take the ball. I'm not sure if that's still the case in 18. Anybody notice yet?

                    Comment

                    • El_MaYiMbE
                      MVP
                      • Mar 2003
                      • 1427

                      #11
                      Re: CPU Manager Hook

                      So this morning we got Patch 1.04. Since the game technically is not out yet, there were no release notes with it aside from "Gameplay Improvements and Bug Fixes". Hopefully we will get some later.

                      However....

                      I played 2 games, and reset sliders to default, and it seems like the bullpen logic is improved!

                      1. Rockies vs Cards (CPU) - game ended 7-5 and they used 4 pitchers in the game, and thats considering that the SP pitched 6 innings (4 ER). Wacha got into trouble late but had been cruising...and got intro trouble in the late middle innings.

                      2. Yankees vs Royals (CPU) - Duffy pitched a gem, allowing only runs of game on a 2-Run HR to Judge in the 3rd, but allowed only 4 hits across 6.2 IP. It was a close 3-2 game, and the Royals brought in the MRP, setup man, and closer to shut the door. The MRP being replaced by setup man was most intriguing, because he pitched a 1-2-3 inning and threw like 6 pitches. Meaning the logic triggered that although he is cruising the 8th belongs to setup man....this is good!

                      I also noticed in both games that although the RPs were not always brought in, that the CPU got guys warming in the later innings when the pitcher got in trouble. So it seems like the leash is shorter for RPs and SPs in late in the game, but not always did it result in a substitution...which again is good. It shows the CPU is getting bullpen and making judgement call. This, I feel, was not happening before.

                      More testing to be done. It might placebo, but the two games post patch played really well and the CPU Manager Hook logic seemed vastly improved while still on default sliders!

                      Keep you guys posted.
                      Last edited by El_MaYiMbE; 03-26-2018, 09:28 AM.

                      Comment

                      • countryboy
                        Growing pains
                        • Sep 2003
                        • 52775

                        #12
                        Re: CPU Manager Hook

                        Originally posted by El_MaYiMbE
                        So this morning we got Patch 1.04. Since the game technically is not out yet, there were no release notes with it aside from "Gameplay Improvements and Bug Fixes". Hopefully we will get some later.

                        However....

                        I played 2 games, and reset sliders to default, and it seems like the bullpen logic is improved!

                        1. Rockies vs Cards (CPU) - game ended 7-5 and they used 4 pitchers in the game, and thats considering that the SP pitched 6 innings (4 ER). Wacha got into trouble late but had been cruising...and got intro trouble in the late middle innings.

                        2. Yankees vs Royals (CPU) - Duffy pitched a gem, allowing on a 2-Run HR to Judge in the 3rd, but allowed only 4 hits across 6.2 IP. It was a close 3-2 game, and the Royals brought in the MRP, setup man, and closer to shut the door. The MRP being replaced by setup man was most intriguing, because he pitched a 1-2-3 inning and threw like 6 pitches. Meaning the logic triggered that although he is cruising the 8th belongs to setup man....this is good!

                        More testing to be done. It might placebo, but the two games post patch played really well and the CPU Manager Hook logic seemed vastly improved while still on default sliders!

                        Keep you guys posted.
                        Great news!

                        Hopefully it was a bug they knew about and fixed prior to actual release date.

                        I'm going to test when I get home and will report back.
                        I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

                        I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


                        Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

                        Comment

                        • GoBlue81188
                          MVP
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 1801

                          #13
                          Re: CPU Manager Hook

                          FWIW, I’ve seen the CPU use pretty great bullpen logic. Situational lefties coming in, 4 out save situations, etc...
                          Twitch: Goblue81188

                          Comment

                          • El_MaYiMbE
                            MVP
                            • Mar 2003
                            • 1427

                            #14
                            Re: CPU Manager Hook

                            Originally posted by lhsballa11
                            FWIW, I’ve seen the CPU use pretty great bullpen logic. Situational lefties coming in, 4 out save situations, etc...
                            Have you seen the opposite? A Long Relief pitcher stay in 4 innings, in a close game where the middle relief guy should have been used?

                            Not saying it does not happen, but definitely has not been the norm prior to Patch 1.04....which I still need to play more to confirm if it has resolved the issues I was referencing.
                            Last edited by El_MaYiMbE; 03-26-2018, 11:38 AM.

                            Comment

                            • GoBlue81188
                              MVP
                              • Jul 2004
                              • 1801

                              #15
                              Re: CPU Manager Hook

                              Originally posted by El_MaYiMbE
                              Have you seen the opposite? A Long Relief pitcher stay in 4 innings, in a close game where the middle relief guy should have been used?

                              Not saying it does not happen, but definitely has not been the norm prior to Patch 1.04....which I still need to play more to confirm if t has resolved the issues I was referencing.
                              Honestly my sample size isn’t high enough yet. Almost all my games have been really close into the late innings and I haven’t noticed any unusual behavior regarding the bullpen.

                              Will continue to take a look at it, sounds like the new patch maybe cleaned things up for those that did see it.
                              Twitch: Goblue81188

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