Speed Without Ball Description 2K19

[devroyce]

Speed Without Ball Description For Who It Effects Is Wrong In 2K19



Below is wrong:



Speed without Ball (Max rating):

(Controls the speed at which fast players move without the ball)


Speed without Ball (Min rating):

(Controls the speed at which slow players move without the ball)



Below is actually correct:



Speed without Ball (Max rating):

(Controls the speed at which "EVERY PLAYER" move without the ball)


Speed without Ball (Min rating):

(Controls every player's normal/slower (non sprint/turbo movements without ball) - This allows us to see players have those "normal, slower, real life movements. Players' normal reaction time is slower when attempting passing lane steals, going for on ball steals, offensive rebounds; basically anything with a non-running aspect to offball movement etc. Now, it does affect some of the running aspect but not as much as the Maximum.



The Test:


Whenever I would test the Speed without ball minimum to "0" and set the Max at 100, "every single player" on the court moved way too fast. As I lowered the Max slider closer to zero, EVERY PLAYER ran extremely slower...but on the other hand, extremely fast like mice when closer to or at 100! Setting the maximum speed too high is why everyone is having many issues with slower players running to fast, because it affects everyone. So how do we balance it? I personally have my Speed Without Ball Max set at 65 so that faster players don't appear too slow, and slower players are just fast enough and not too fast. I have my minimum set at 5...setting Acceleration higher in the movement slider section helps as well. Set it around 90+ (my minimum is at 93) to prevent excessive sliding. You will see offball players pivot better and turn corners at a quicker pace, along with better stepping.



Trust me and test this out today! Play around with the Speed without ball settings and you will see exactly what I just explained. This is with Speed and Acceleration Attribute sliders at 50, and Game Speed Sliders at 50.


Try it and form your own opinion. But this is what I have been witnessing the entire year of testing. Each time I return to testing this, it proves to be true.

[hoopsfan]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

Speed Without Ball Description For Who It Effects Is Wrong In 2K19



Below is wrong:



Speed without Ball (Max rating):

(Controls the speed at which fast players move without the ball)


Speed without Ball (Min rating):

(Controls the speed at which slow players move without the ball)



Below is actually correct:



Speed without Ball (Max rating):

(Controls the speed at which "EVERY PLAYER" move without the ball)


Speed without Ball (Min rating):

(Controls every player's normal/slower (non sprint/turbo movements without ball) - This allows us to see players have those "normal, slower, real life movements. Players' normal reaction time is slower when attempting passing lane steals, going for on ball steals, offensive rebounds; basically anything with a non-running aspect to offball movement etc. Now, it does affect some of the running aspect but not as much as the Maximum.



The Test:


Whenever I would test the Speed without ball minimum to "0" and set the Max at 100, "every single player" on the court moved way too fast. As I lowered the Max slider closer to zero, EVERY PLAYER ran extremely slower. Setting the maximum speed too high is why everyone is having many issues with slower players running to fast, because it affects everyone. So how do we balance it? I personally have my Speed Without Ball Max set at 65 so that faster players don't appear too slow, and slower players are just fast enough and not too fast. I have my minimum set at 5...setting Acceleration higher in the movement slider section helps as well. Set it around 90+ (my minimum is at 93) to prevent excessive sliding. You will see offball players pivot better and turn corners at a quicker pace, along with better stepping.



Trust me and test this out today! Play around with the Speed without ball settings and you will see exactly what I just explained. This is with Speed and Acceleration Attribute sliders at 50, and Game Speed Sliders at 50.


Try it and form your own opinion. But this is what I have been witnessing the entire year of testing. Every time I come back to it, it bids true.

Tried it. I see exactly what you are noticing.

[Razorbadguy]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

Great find! So what should we set Speed with ball to? Also are you speaking of Acceleration with or without ball?

If you can list your set in order that would great


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[devroyce]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

Great find! So what should we set Speed with ball to? Also are you speaking of Acceleration with or without ball?

If you can list your set in order that would great


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure as to what the final values will be for Speed with Ball. But I do have a set... whenever I can get on my game, I will note it and post here, what I am working with.

I was specifically speaking of Acceleration "without" Ball (minimum). Everything I mentioned was based on "without ball" regarding Movement Sliders.

My goal is to come up with realistic Movement speeds without having to alter Game Speed (which alters clock speed as well), and without having to alter Attribute Speed and Acceleration...thus keeping those categories at 50.

I believe I kept Speed with Ball at 70 for Max so far...but will check. In the meantime, I may make tiny tweaks of 1 or 2's if need be. Will keep you posted.

[devroyce]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

Here are the Speeds and Acceleration I am using currently. However, be mindful I just started these and I am testing.

Game Speed: 50

ATTRIBUTES

Acceleration: 50
Speed: 50
Lateral Quickness: 30 (still testing between 30 and 50)

MOVEMENT


Speed with Ball (Max rating): 70

Speed with Ball (Min rating): 50 (may increase; if set too low, players like Thaddeus Young & Lauri Markkanen run like they are stuck in mud with the ball; in fact Lauri is much faster than a "30" in real life! I watch him every game. 30 is too slow period. All the slower players appear too slow with 30)

Acceleration with Ball (Max rating): 100 (no more ball getting stuck in one hand animation when attempting a crossover or switching hands while dribbling like 30 and below does; less sliding)

Acceleration with Ball (Min rating): 95 (same as Max but less effective for slower guys)

Speed without Ball (Max rating): 65 (Controls EVERY player's offball running speed)

Speed without Ball (Min rating): 5 (reaction time changes for every offball movement such in this description; rebounding; passing lane attempts become more like deflections/tips rather than steals; closeout speeds are slower and not overpowered; easier to blowby occasionally; players have "normal" slower movements at times; still have some affect on player running speed though not as much as the Max)

Acceleration without Ball (Max rating): 97 (helps aid in offball players getting wide open looks; much less sliding, pivoting and turn quickness)

Acceleration without Ball (Min rating): 93 (much less sliding; better pivoting and turn quickness; offsets speed without ball being set low in order to prevent sluggishness, also see on ball reach in attempts, block attempts, passing lane attempts, etc.)

I am attempting to make it so that folks won't have to do too many tweaks with Speed and Acceleration in Attributes, if very little, by just tweaking the movement sliders only.

EDIT: All of my testing is done on SUPERSTAR Difficulty.

[devroyce]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

...testing and tweaking movement sliders because sometimes I wakeup and see things differently from the night before. But they will remain very minor.

I just increased Speed with ball minimum to 51 & Acceleration with ball minimum to 96...only testing.

What I do notice is that players like Derrick Favors, are able to pivot and spin much better in the post when performing a quick triple threat move, and then attack the rim with force. This is definitely recognizable with acceleration with ball set high.

[devroyce]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

Also, setting Acceleration too low, whether in Attributes or Movement slider sections, will cause players not to be able to Sprint forward at any moment. You will notice players' movements will get stuck at times, not being able to go forward. This should never be limited. The only thing in real life that prevents any of us from being able to Accelerate is tiredness, or unless you run into any object that blocks you from being able to.

Edit: I am also discovering that setting acceleration too high in the movement slider section for certain categories can also cause sliding due to becoming overpowered. Finding a limit or cap for each movement slider is important visually, and they can all have their own unique value.

[devroyce]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

After reading this article about what 2K20 fixes I think I may be done with tweaking 2K19. [emoji6] [emoji108] No, I will continue to tweak just for fun, and hopefully all of the new stuff will be true in the next game.

However, it surely addresses the point I made about tiredness/stamina being the only thing that stops a player from accelerating or sprinting forward.

https://www.operationsports.com/nba-2k20-gameplay-blog-motion-engine-upgrade-handles-read-react-defense-shot-solutions-paint-defense-working-off-ball-next-step-in-ai-badges-takeover/

[mcdowell31]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

Initial experience: This makes the attribute Reaction Speed matter.

[devroyce]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

Initial experience: This makes the attribute Reaction Speed matter.

Thanks for confirming!

[youALREADYknow]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

My goal is to come up with realistic Movement speeds without having to alter Game Speed (which alters clock speed as well), and without having to alter Attribute Speed and Acceleration...thus keeping those categories at 50.

It's TOUGH to balance this year and nearly impossible to move Player Speed without touching Game Speed from my experience. The animation speed becomes out of sync with player speed once you begin to tweak Speed/Acceleration in any way from defaults.

There's a small window of change that maintains balance, but at some point you will see one of the following:
1. Game Speed Too Low: Player animations are too slow to keep up with player movement. This mostly impacts defense and means that speed/acceleration become more important than animation packages, badges, and skill. You will see a lot of success using sprint with ball over dribble moves.
2. Game Speed Too High: The reverse where player animations take place faster than the reaction time and acceleration of players on the court. This will make animation packages overpowered relative to player athleticism and you will see more separation using dribble moves and finishing moves (euro/spin/hop/post-spin/etc) than using the sprint button.

I generally prefer to keep Game Speed balanced higher than Player Speed (#2). That doesn't mean that the numeric value of Game Speed is higher than Speed/Acceleration though. The DEFAULT balance is the only thing I go back to when trying to balance player movement.

Game Speed @ 50 is balanced with the average of the w/Ball and w/o Ball values. Default Max is 70, Min is 30 (Avg of 50). Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders are also at 50 by default. It's not a hard rule, but you will usually see overpowered effects if you go too far from the balance of Game Speed = Median of w/Ball and w/o Ball.

I've played on both high (65-70) and low (35-40) Game Speed in 2K19, but my goal in both cases was to make sure that Game Speed was slightly higher than the w/Ball and w/o Ball "median" to allow animations and skill to matter more than movement.

It's a mad science getting movement right in 2K19 so hopefully they do a much better job of capturing the change of pace style of real basketball in 2K20.

[devroyce]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

It's TOUGH to balance this year and nearly impossible to move Player Speed without touching Game Speed from my experience. The animation speed becomes out of sync with player speed once you begin to tweak Speed/Acceleration in any way from defaults.

There's a small window of change that maintains balance, but at some point you will see one of the following:
1. Game Speed Too Low: Player animations are too slow to keep up with player movement. This mostly impacts defense and means that speed/acceleration become more important than animation packages, badges, and skill. You will see a lot of success using sprint with ball over dribble moves.
2. Game Speed Too High: The reverse where player animations take place faster than the reaction time and acceleration of players on the court. This will make animation packages overpowered relative to player athleticism and you will see more separation using dribble moves and finishing moves (euro/spin/hop/post-spin/etc) than using the sprint button.

I generally prefer to keep Game Speed balanced higher than Player Speed (#2). That doesn't mean that the numeric value of Game Speed is higher than Speed/Acceleration though. The DEFAULT balance is the only thing I go back to when trying to balance player movement.

Game Speed @ 50 is balanced with the average of the w/Ball and w/o Ball values. Default Max is 70, Min is 30 (Avg of 50). Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders are also at 50 by default. It's not a hard rule, but you will usually see overpowered effects if you go too far from the balance of Game Speed = Median of w/Ball and w/o Ball.

I've played on both high (65-70) and low (35-40) Game Speed in 2K19, but my goal in both cases was to make sure that Game Speed was slightly higher than the w/Ball and w/o Ball "median" to allow animations and skill to matter more than movement.

It's a mad science getting movement right in 2K19 so hopefully they do a much better job of capturing the change of pace style of real basketball in 2K20.

"Tough" is absolutely true.

And see that's why I went with option #2 in a an old slider set from December before that huge 2K patch. However, even with option #2, I had Game Speed at 65, I had Acceleration near 100 as compared to Speed of 0 before someone suggested that Player Speed should be at 20, I have always had Speed with Ball Max higher than Speed without Ball to help offensive players blowby, and also draw fouls...this helped with the defensive players unrealistically catching up to faster players each time there is a breakaway fastbreak. However, I can't really recall what I did not like about the speed setup back then, but it still didn't cut it for me in the long run...though one of the reasons was that it became too easy.

But I just can't get with the 70/30 method across the board at all. I don't like it at all, one bit. Another thing I don't like is changing clock speed (Game Speed). But hey if that works for some...I will say this...I am willing to try 70/30 again and see if it does change my mind and may warm up to it. It's been many months since I played that way.

Otherwise, I am going to continue testing as is until 2k20. But hopefully they do fix it all.

[devroyce]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

Just tried 70/30 and it is a huge no-go in my book. For some it may be a great thing. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But I'm not even going to go into details. It resembles nothing like the real thing to me. Yes, it's a video game, and certain developer/coding aspects may work together according to the "video gaming" perspective, but it just doesn't seem realistic visually to me at all.

[youALREADYknow]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

"Tough" is absolutely true.

And see that's why I went with option #2 in a an old slider set from December before that huge 2K patch. However, even with option #2, I had Game Speed at 65, I had Acceleration near 100 as compared to Speed of 0 before someone suggested that Player Speed should be at 20, I have always had Speed with Ball Max higher than Speed without Ball to help offensive players blowby, and also draw fouls...this helped with the defensive players unrealistically catching up to faster players each time there is a breakaway fastbreak. However, I can't really recall what I did not like about the speed setup back then, but it still didn't cut it for me in the long run...though one of the reasons was that it became too easy.

But I just can't get with the 70/30 method across the board at all. I don't like it at all, one bit. Another thing I don't like is changing clock speed (Game Speed). But hey if that works for some...I will say this...I am willing to try 70/30 again and see if it does change my mind and may warm up to it. It's been many months since I played that way.

Otherwise, I am going to continue testing as is until 2k20. But hopefully they do fix it all.

I agree with you that 70/30 isn't a good representation of player movement. If you have a default Game Speed of 50, then my goal is just to have a median of 50 (not 70/30). I've been stretching the Min scales down to 1-10 for a long time and will keep it that way until 2K20 drops. The Max scale is the one that gives me the most problems depending on what other settings and sliders are adjusted. At Game Speed of 50 and a Min scale of 1, I'd try to keep the Max near 100. The problem you stated in the OP is because 100 is such an extreme setting. Most rosters have Speed/Acceleration attributes above 60 for the vast majority of players which means that most players will be faster than the 2K default Max of 70. It's tough to stretch the scales AND keep balance with all of Game Speed, Speed, and Acceleration at 50.

There is a easy test to confirm the relationship between the Speed/Acceleration attribute sliders and the w/Ball and w/o Ball sliders. This relationship determines how much of that Min/Max range actually gets used. You can test this by putting all of the w/ Ball and w/o Ball sliders to 100 Max and 1 Min. After that, adjust both Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders to 99 and watch how every player's movement animations begin to move at warp speed. Now set the Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders to 1 and watch how every player moves and dribbles slower with stronger foot planting in a methodical way.

In both cases, only a narrow part of that 1-100 Min/Max range is being used. Keeping Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders near 50 (default) is the only way to make sure that the full range of 1-100 can be used w/Ball and w/o Ball. The roster scales determine how much of that range actually gets used though. Default rosters have a narrow range for both. If you move Speed or Acceleration attribute sliders to the extremes, then the range of 1-100 for Min/Max no longer means the same thing. The balance is determined by the attribute slider AND the w/Ball, w/o Ball sliders.

That's the effect I believe you are seeing when you say that the description is wrong for Speed Without Ball. Your changes to the default Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders could have made the "Min" and "Max" values less effective. If your Acceleration attribute slider is 100, then you might as well put the "Min" values as close to the "Max" as possible because the game engine believes that every player is near the "Max" attribute. The reverse is true if the Speed attribute is at 0 and the game engine believes every player is near the "Min" attribute.

I've been in the zone of Game Speed of 62-65 for most of 2K19 because that's the range where I think the ball travels at real-life speed on shots and free throws. In order to make up for the Game Speed going up, I've lowered the Acceleration w/Ball Max and Acceleration w/o Ball Max to prevent the warp speed animations from happening no matter what the player's rating is. I've also lowered the Speed attribute (but left the Speed w/Ball and Speed w/o Ball Max high) to prevent sliding and improve foot planting. Both changes were made to bring the balance back near 50. Game Speed at 65 means Speed/Acceleration are "balanced" with a median of 35.

Sorry if that seems confusing btw.

[devroyce]

Re: Speed Without Ball Description Is Wrong In 2K19

I agree with you that 70/30 isn't a good representation of player movement. If you have a default Game Speed of 50, then my goal is just to have a median of 50 (not 70/30). I've been stretching the Min scales down to 1-10 for a long time and will keep it that way until 2K20 drops. The Max scale is the one that gives me the most problems depending on what other settings and sliders are adjusted. At Game Speed of 50 and a Min scale of 1, I'd try to keep the Max near 100. The problem you stated in the OP is because 100 is such an extreme setting. Most rosters have Speed/Acceleration attributes above 60 for the vast majority of players which means that most players will be faster than the 2K default Max of 70. It's tough to stretch the scales AND keep balance with all of Game Speed, Speed, and Acceleration at 50.

There is a easy test to confirm the relationship between the Speed/Acceleration attribute sliders and the w/Ball and w/o Ball sliders. This relationship determines how much of that Min/Max range actually gets used. You can test this by putting all of the w/ Ball and w/o Ball sliders to 100 Max and 1 Min. After that, adjust both Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders to 99 and watch how every player's movement animations begin to move at warp speed. Now set the Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders to 1 and watch how every player moves and dribbles slower with stronger foot planting in a methodical way.

In both cases, only a narrow part of that 1-100 Min/Max range is being used. Keeping Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders near 50 (default) is the only way to make sure that the full range of 1-100 can be used w/Ball and w/o Ball. If you move Speed or Acceleration attribute sliders to the extremes, then the range of 1-100 for Min/Max no longer means the same thing. The balance is determined by the attribute slider AND the w/Ball, w/o Ball sliders.

That's the effect I believe you are seeing when you say that the description is wrong for Speed Without Ball. Your changes to the default Speed and Acceleration attribute sliders could have made the "Min" and "Max" values less effective. If your Acceleration attribute slider is 100, then you might as well put the "Min" values as close to the "Max" as possible because the game engine believes that every player is near the "Max" attribute. The reverse is true if the Speed attribute is at 0 and the game engine believes every player is near the "Min" attribute.

I've been in the zone of Game Speed of 62-65 for most of 2K19 because that's the range where I think the ball travels at real-life speed on shots and free throws. In order to make up for the Game Speed going up, I've lowered the Acceleration w/Ball Max and Acceleration w/o Ball Max to prevent the warp speed animations from happening no matter what the player's rating is. I've also lowered the Speed attribute (but left the Speed w/Ball and Speed w/o Ball Max high) to prevent sliding and improve foot planting. Both changes were made to bring the balance back near 50. Game Speed at 65 means Speed/Acceleration are "balanced" with a median of 35.

Sorry if that seems confusing btw.

Right! I definitely understand what you are saying. And what you explained above is one of the major reasons I chose to go with Game Speed of 65 at that time...I absolutely agree with the real life shot speed and free throw speed..even down to the ball being faster than players' reaction timing occasionally; and I would even see horrible free throw shooters airball at times. I did see great reviews regarding that aspect of the set at the time. And while I still love 65 Game Speed, it may have been that I was also soured by the new patch 2K implemented at the time minus a few other gripes. I'm telling you, I was upset when that happened.

I will try your method and see what happens...and if you could post those numbers for easier view that'd be great.