Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

[Scofield]

Where do you guys think we are as far as the handle goes? I think its improved in some ways but taken some disappointing steps back in others (or simply remained stagnant). I think a good deal of it has to with the way players move at base level. We have a good ways to go on that front I think.

I hear the word "subtle" used quite a bit in describing it and in some cases you can get some fairly nuanced results:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DrHFiP6sNf4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Overall though I think things get bogged down with strange launch angles and too often unresponsive inputs. Here's a good example:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wCuhtnfG7og" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Everything looks very good initially. The setup into the crossover looks good from Wall and he gets Delly to bite in the crossover. The animation that plays out for Delly is perfect. It's not over the top and looks like what you'd normally see if someone is hit with a good crossover. It not a "broke em" play but its good enough. Things break down after that though. When I've finished the crossover I'm sent on an awkward, ill-advised, space wasting path. Instead of a hard angle towards the basket my path is rounded out and extended so I'm headed towards the sideline.

I can see this happening and to compensate for it (and the fact that it will allow Delly to recover) I start hitting down on the stick to get a behind the back move. No dice, the input is ignored in spite of the fact that I've got plenty of space to make the move. In the end, because of the bad angle I was forced to take initially and the lack of response to my inputs my defender does recover in spite of being hit with a move what typically will result in a clear path to the basket.

The most frustrating thing is that it doesn't always go that way. The scenario does play out properly sometimes.But I have no control over the angle I take to the basket:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/c6xwxUqQRjs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Maybe there's something I can do in these situations that I've missed. What do you guys think?

[2_headedmonster]

Re: Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

I think there needs to be moves for all speeds: walking, jogging, running, sprinting.

Also there needs to be moves in tight areas with talented ball-handlers.

[Sleepy59]

Re: Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

Every year you have less and less control over what you actually want to do. On-ball D broken, directional pass broken, driving broken. It's sad that people have to make tutorials on passing lol. Fact is, it's broken.

[The 24th Letter]

Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

Not knowing, unwilling to learn how to do something doesn't mean it's broken...

To the OP, good thread. What camera do you play on? A lot of times that can help with the angles you take. I couldn't understand why I could blow by guys on 2k cam more effectively then broadcast, which is my preferred camera. It was the wide angles you're talking about. I've learned how to cut down some of the extra space a bit.

Posted this last night, but the motion of moves like this naturally put you at a wide angle....

https://vid.me/4Y5Q

I agree with the crossovers in tight spaces. That's where 2k's 'cadance' dribbling system hurts....needing to make a quick move in tight spaces to get yourself out of trouble isn't as effective. Hopefully they can work on that for next year.

[Scofield]

Re: Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

I think there needs to be moves for all speeds: walking, jogging, running, sprinting.

Also there needs to be moves in tight areas with talented ball-handlers.

I'm with you. In some cases you can see the potential for more natural scenarios to play out. All those animations are there (some can be improved) but the transitions from one to the other is often awkward and in some cases downright strange:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4CFLXjKmarE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Scofield]

Re: Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

Not knowing, unwilling to learn how to do something doesn't mean it's broken...

To the OP, good thread. What camera do you play on? A lot of times that can help with the angles you take. I couldn't understand why I could blow by guys on 2k cam more effectively then broadcast, which is my preferred camera. It was the wide angles you're talking about. I've learned how to cut down some of the extra space a bit.

Posted this last night, but the motion of moves like this naturally put you at a wide angle....

https://vid.me/4Y5Q

I agree with the crossovers in tight spaces. That's where 2k's 'cadance' dribbling system hurts....needing to make a quick move in tight spaces to get yourself out of trouble isn't as effective. Hopefully they can work on that for next year.

I've bounced between 2k cam and broadcast. The game looks better on broadcast but 2k cam seems be easier to play on.

I'll have to go back and look but I think 2k13 did a good job of mixing in more "off-cadence" dribble moves in addition to the standard options.

[The 24th Letter]

Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

2K13 was easily the best version of isomotion after tweaking it all these years....then like that, it's gone....

[phlipmode]

Re: Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

This is a good thread.. I have the same experience with the vids you posted... your first vid with jwall taking wide angles... to be honest it doesn't happen all the time its off and on as you stated. I believe it may have something to do with if your user team has the momentum over the cpu team slightly. "Every notice when you start to get a lead and pull away the cpu team makes every and 1 attempt"?? lol ss/sim 12min btw. This happen to me along with the game not taking my input commands at times because the ai has already decided the outcome for you in which in this case they have decided that jwall would not get a easy layup instead he will be bodied up... I would have done the ame as you with the btb move input ... but my first choice would be a quick spin back toward the middle to take advantage of the defenders momentum. however it has risk of the ball just getting knocked loose due to plp who play online complaining about cheesers... what 2k failed to realize is those who play ofline are now affected aswell in a negative way.


the second vid is just pure cheese from the ai looks like..in know scenario IRL woul d a post defender trail hi guy like that as if he were in kindegarden line an the teacher said follow your buddy in front of you. lol.


To put it simple... 2k made this game tis way and allowed it to be released this way and they don't care to acknowledge or fix it.


24 I agree when you say somethings shouldn't be called broken because a person hasn't took the time to figure out the mechanics... and I appreciate that the majority of your post are neutral you see the good and bad... I believe there are lots of guys who are seeing core problems with this game and not all of them are new to 2k.


Think about it, every year they change the dribbling mechanics for marketing purposes. So they can say its new and improve. hat it does is make us have to re learn It all over again... they should take a page from EA madden and leave the core components of the game alone 2k13 was fine. madden stopped changing the juke buttons spin hurdle and stiff arms years ago... its the same and we like it just fine. to make matters worse 2k is very complex I tell all new commers to be patient and watch youtu be.. 2k doesn't have to print very detailed manual but they could easily have a dedicate youtube channel to explain why the game works the way it does. with Q and A vids responses, how too vids for the "more complex" side of things. the 2ktv stuff is mostly basic.


the game recycles annually why do we have to spend soo much time trying to understand how the game works we should be able to enjoy the game each year with minimal changes to core gameplay.? that's less time for me to enjoy the product I paid $60 for.. I use to start a dynasty every November but since the last few years I have to wait until the game is patched 4 times and start my dynasty late dec. or jan in this case bc every year they change a few things that wasn't broke and I have to learn how to do a simple cross over again to get by my defender lol. and then we all scream about it on OS and an the someone makes a post about it trying to teach others how it works this year...lol


I beat 6 months salary they will **** with it again in 2k17 and change something that's fie and call it new and improved.

[SpeedyClaxton]

Re: Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

Guys here defend this game like it's their own masterpiece crafted their whole life. Every year when i buy game i try to learn basic and advanced moves in practice mode (stepbacks, in&out, dribbles, fakes, shimmyfakes, shimmyshots, postoffense moves, postdefense). After maybe 5-6 days of learning those moves i only left disappointed to realize guys who run over court like clueless pigs have much more success than someone who's trying to play this game it's meant to be played.

[Scofield]

Re: Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

2K13 was easily the best version of isomotion after tweaking it all these years....then like that, it's gone....

Yeah... that one caught me off guard. Could have used a few tweaks maybe but the focus more on one to one control was a nice.

[Scofield]

Re: Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

This is a good thread.. I have the same experience with the vids you posted... your first vid with jwall taking wide angles... to be honest it doesn't happen all the time its off and on as you stated. I believe it may have something to do with if your user team has the momentum over the cpu team slightly. "Every notice when you start to get a lead and pull away the cpu team makes every and 1 attempt"?? lol ss/sim 12min btw. This happen to me along with the game not taking my input commands at times because the ai has already decided the outcome for you in which in this case they have decided that jwall would not get a easy layup instead he will be bodied up... I would have done the ame as you with the btb move input ... but my first choice would be a quick spin back toward the middle to take advantage of the defenders momentum. however it has risk of the ball just getting knocked loose due to plp who play online complaining about cheesers... what 2k failed to realize is those who play ofline are now affected aswell in a negative way.


the second vid is just pure cheese from the ai looks like..in know scenario IRL woul d a post defender trail hi guy like that as if he were in kindegarden line an the teacher said follow your buddy in front of you. lol.


To put it simple... 2k made this game tis way and allowed it to be released this way and they don't care to acknowledge or fix it.


24 I agree when you say somethings shouldn't be called broken because a person hasn't took the time to figure out the mechanics... and I appreciate that the majority of your post are neutral you see the good and bad... I believe there are lots of guys who are seeing core problems with this game and not all of them are new to 2k.


Think about it, every year they change the dribbling mechanics for marketing purposes. So they can say its new and improve. hat it does is make us have to re learn It all over again... they should take a page from EA madden and leave the core components of the game alone 2k13 was fine. madden stopped changing the juke buttons spin hurdle and stiff arms years ago... its the same and we like it just fine. to make matters worse 2k is very complex I tell all new commers to be patient and watch youtu be.. 2k doesn't have to print very detailed manual but they could easily have a dedicate youtube channel to explain why the game works the way it does. with Q and A vids responses, how too vids for the "more complex" side of things. the 2ktv stuff is mostly basic.


the game recycles annually why do we have to spend soo much time trying to understand how the game works we should be able to enjoy the game each year with minimal changes to core gameplay.? that's less time for me to enjoy the product I paid $60 for.. I use to start a dynasty every November but since the last few years I have to wait until the game is patched 4 times and start my dynasty late dec. or jan in this case bc every year they change a few things that wasn't broke and I have to learn how to do a simple cross over again to get by my defender lol. and then we all scream about it on OS and an the someone makes a post about it trying to teach others how it works this year...lol


I beat 6 months salary they will **** with it again in 2k17 and change something that's fie and call it new and improved.

A lot to unpack here lol.

I agree with some of what you say. We can't speak to their motivations ect though. These things usually come down to priorities and how you decide to allocate your talent. Focusing on one thing means not focusing on another. All we can do is judge results.

[Sleepy59]

Re: Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

Guys here defend this game like it's their own masterpiece crafted their whole life. Every year when i buy game i try to learn basic and advanced moves in practice mode (stepbacks, in&out, dribbles, fakes, shimmyfakes, shimmyshots, postoffense moves, postdefense). After maybe 5-6 days of learning those moves i only left disappointed to realize guys who run over court like clueless pigs have much more success than someone who's trying to play this game it's meant to be played.

They add a new "Learning curve" for sim like moves and playstyle, but as you stated we end up disappointed. Turboers always have the advantage, there are little to no repercussions for people who play reckless. Most of my interceptions are taps that go out of bounds, or taps that end up going back to the offensive player, Charges have been nerfed, you get reaching fouls for tapping x once and not even touching the offensive player. They removed body up stealing. They almost removed loss of ball from reckless dribbling.( I see it gone next year ) Good luck getting steals off the inbound! But how much have they addressed baseline cheesing and or turboing to the paint consecutively? They made left to right worse by adding these sizeups with extremely fast side to side bursts. And yes there are things which are broken, directional passing for instance.(Directional passing is on) And yes I know how to use icon, but sometimes timing is essential. <iframe src="https://vid.me/e/zpzW" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen scrolling="no" height="480" width="854"></iframe>

[phlipmode]

Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

A lot to unpack here lol.

I agree with some of what you say. We can't speak to their motivations ect though. These things usually come down to priorities and how you decide to allocate your talent. Focusing on one thing means not focusing on another. All we can do is judge results.

Sorry for the long read lol above

We can always have a good idea where a company is going business wise based on their response to social media in conjunction with where they started from and what took them to the top. I've watched the company change over many years:

- 2k challenged EA's madden title with ESPN 2k5 football and won not only that year but many years to come more plp preferred their game over future madden titles.
- So EA bought the rights to the NFL thus making it illegal for 2k to make a NFL game due to the contract language between EA and the NFL..
- EA challenged 2ks College Hoops title and lost horribly.
- So EA bought the rights to the NCAA thus making it illegal for 2k to make a college basketball game due to the contract language between EA and the NCAA..
- 2k challenged EAs NBA LIVE title and won.. The NBA saw what happen with the other lawsuits and determined it's good to have competition and declined EAs offer to by the rights. So 2k remains on top and rightfully so.

My point is I've followed this company over the years since college hoops 2k5 and because I'm a sports gamer I can say they have earned every award giving to them and I'm proud of what they have done facing adversity from EA and other obstacles. But ...

It was all done because of the core gameplay and realism 2k gave us sports gamers over EA titles. That was and is the bridge that brought us over from EA. Lol even before 2ks graphics took off when shaq was on the cover for the Miami Heat!

The last few years with the emergence of MyPlayer stuff in all sports titles 2k has become champion in my opinion. That's great and is also the right move for them to make business wise. "So I feel I can speak on their motivation" etc. bc I know and was apart of their history growing from the bottom to the top.

In your post you are correct all the way in saying they have to make tough decision with allocation of resources on a yearly bases.. It just hard to see them sell out core gameplay realism for soo much Myplayer stuff. A better balance would be ideal in my opinion. The stuff some of us are complaining about in these threads were never in their earlier titles to this affect. They spent more time making their games more sim than figuring out how to make it harder by adding cheesy gameplay gimmicks that are so easy to uncover.

Sorry for this long read I'll try to be short going forward but this was the only way for me to truly explain why I hold them accountable for putting out trashy gameplay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scofield]

Re: Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

Sorry for the long read lol above

We can always have a good idea where a company is going business wise based on their response to social media in conjunction with where they started from and what took them to the top. I've watched the company change over many years:

- 2k challenged EA's madden title with ESPN 2k5 football and won not only that year but many years to come more plp preferred their game over future madden titles.
- So EA bought the rights to the NFL thus making it illegal for 2k to make a NFL game due to the contract language between EA and the NFL..
- EA challenged 2ks College Hoops title and lost horribly.
- So EA bought the rights to the NCAA thus making it illegal for 2k to make a college basketball game due to the contract language between EA and the NCAA..
- 2k challenged EAs NBA LIVE title and won.. The NBA saw what happen with the other lawsuits and determined it's good to have competition and declined EAs offer to by the rights. So 2k remains on top and rightfully so.

My point is I've followed this company over the years since college hoops 2k5 and because I'm a sports gamer I can say they have earned every award giving to them and I'm proud of what they have done facing adversity from EA and other obstacles. But ...

It was all done because of the core gameplay and realism 2k gave us sports gamers over EA titles. That was and is the bridge that brought us over from EA. Lol even before 2ks graphics took off when shaq was on the cover for the Miami Heat!

The last few years with the emergence of MyPlayer stuff in all sports titles 2k has become champion in my opinion. That's great and is also the right move for them to make business wise. "So I feel I can speak on their motivation" etc. bc I know and was apart of their history growing from the bottom to the top.

In your post you are correct all the way in saying they have to make tough decision with allocation of resources on a yearly bases.. It just hard to see them sell out core gameplay realism for soo much Myplayer stuff. A better balance would be ideal in my opinion. The stuff some of us are complaining about in these threads were never in their earlier titles to this affect. They spent more time making their games more sim than figuring out how to make it harder by adding cheesy gameplay gimmicks that are so easy to uncover.

Sorry for this long read I'll try to be short going forward but this was the only way for me to truly explain why I hold them accountable for putting out trashy gameplay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I understand where your coming from man (I wouldn't worry about post length if I were you). The casual/sim dynamic is a different conversation I think. I believe, as far the dribbling goes, a return to more of a focus on one to one control in addition to improvement in basic player movement will get things mostly where we need them to be.

The best approach reminds me of how children's television programming was in the mid to late 90s through the early 2000s. The storytelling was layered. Kids could watch a show like Animaniacs and love it but their parents could watch the same show and love it for entirely different reasons. Jokes ect worked on two levels. That kind of approach is hard but in the end I think that's where things are going to have to go with these games.

Right now it's still possible to have enjoyable games if your interested in a realistic style of play. But you have to be very selective with who you play and you'll probably have to teak the game out of the box (though this game was pretty doggone good out of the box this year).

[The 24th Letter]

Dribbling Mechanics Going Forward

Definitely respect your opinion and every thing Phillip, but all the motivations talk and how you feel 2k is as a company is for another thread. You may even want to start one on that topic. This is a good thread for actual discussion of mechanics- and I just don't want it closed for taking another route.

As far as the "defending 2k" post, no one was doing that. It was actually a pretty civil discussion before comments like those take things another direction. It's damn near agenda posting.