Fast Break AI

[LorenzoDC]

I was going over some video of my own game play to watch and try to get better, and I decided to break down this play for this thread.

It shows stuff we all know is there, and has been for years. I'm just showing how it's still there and how fast break AI in 2K still has a long, long way to go.

[LorenzoDC]

Quote: Originally Posted by LorenzoDC

I was going over some video of my own game play to watch and try to get better, and I decided to break down this play for this thread. It shows stuff we all know is there, and has been for years. I'm just showing how it's still there and how fast break AI in 2K still has a long, long way to go.

Hey Books, I see you with that rec. I thought you bailed from the threads!

I frequently remember that post you made early on about putting the game down and think, "That dude is smarter than the rest of us."

I've more than once second guessed myself trying to hang in there and post videos and comment in the wiki threads to help other people play a game that I see has so many flaws this year.

Anyway, if you jump back in the threads, will be good to hear from you. Thanks for the little rec.

Is SimHangout on permanent hiatus this cycle? Or maybe when the season starts?

[cablexdeadpool]

There's nothing worse than watching Terrence Jones take a fastbreak stepback three...

Nothing worse than watching guards take fastbreak stepback midrange jumpers...

Nothing worse than watching Tyreke Evans...a slasher...take stepback 3s...


It is just all around bad in MyCareer.

[El_Poopador]

Quote: Originally Posted by cablexdeadpool

There's nothing worse than watching Terrence Jones take a fastbreak stepback three... Nothing worse than watching guards take fastbreak stepback midrange jumpers... Nothing worse than watching Tyreke Evans...a slasher...take stepback 3s... It is just all around bad in MyCareer.

It's not a MyCareer issue; it's every game mode. The clip in my OP was from a Play Now game.

[fluent2332]

Quote: Originally Posted by LorenzoDC

I was going over some video of my own game play to watch and try to get better, and I decided to break down this play for this thread. It shows stuff we all know is there, and has been for years. I'm just showing how it's still there and how fast break AI in 2K still has a long, long way to go.

I don't really see much wrong with this video to be honest.

To start the play, the PG is in that position for a reason. The point guard decided he didn't want to run the lane with Porzingis leading the break. Many times in the NBA the point guard will stay behind as a release and want the ball immediately, expecting the big guy with the ball to pass the ball back so the PG can advance the ball and either set up the offense or secondary break. Since the point guard in this case didn't feel they had a great fast break opportunity (or trusted Porzingis to lead the break in traffic), he stayed as a release to get the ball back and bring it up the court.

Second, #34 couldn't catch the pass in stride because it wasn't a great pass and it was an awkward angle (he had to turn in a weird way just to catch the pass, thus the animation was correct in this situation). Since he did have to slow himself down to catch the pass, that's why the corner "Usain Bolt" guy was able to sprint and get back in the play. I don't see much of an issue with that, either.

Also, instead of a contested jumper, if you had made one more pass you would have had an open layup/dunk. #14 in the play makes a burst towards the basket as #34 is catching the pass and the defender is committing to defend #34 (the guy with the ball). Just like a good running/hustling big would do in real life, he ran the lane perfectly but you didn't reward him with the pass.

Just my 2 cents. I've seen weird videos and what not but this one just looks pretty harmless. And keep in mind that not every fast break is going to be the exact same. The AI is making decisions and not every decision will necessarily please you, either.

[psydefx]

the fast break is a perfect example of how 2k continuously builds on game mechanics yet fails to test them properly. what good is it if it doesn't work?

everything from players stopping for no reason, having a clear and open lane to the hoop, and then deciding to turn around and head to the 3 point line, to just being straight up impeded and fouled from behind with no penalty.

i get the feeling that this won't be fixed until the second (after 1.05) gameplay patch, if at all.

[LorenzoDC]

Quote: Originally Posted by fluent2332

I don't really see much wrong with this video to be honest. To start the play, the PG is in that position for a reason. The point guard decided he didn't want to run the lane with Porzingis leading the break. Many times in the NBA the point guard will stay behind as a release and want the ball immediately, expecting the big guy with the ball to pass the ball back so the PG can advance the ball and either set up the offense or secondary break. Since the point guard in this case didn't feel they had a great fast break opportunity, he stayed as a release to get the ball back and bring it up the court.

I respectfully disagree. The PG took a bump from the defender, and didn't decide to trail. There's nothing in his actions that looks like trailing anyway. Who trails by standing still with his back to the half of the court where the play is?

In this case I dumped the ball to KP because I knew by reflex that keeping the ball in the hands of the guy in traffic who had a defender right on top of him would mean, in 2K17, a very high probability of the ball getting bumped loose again. It's not sim to give the ball to the big man like that but it's necessary in 2k in that situation to dump to an open man to avoid another bump animation turnover.

Quote: Originally Posted by fluent2332

Second, #34 couldn't catch the pass in stride because it wasn't a great pass and it was an awkward angle (he had to turn in a weird way just to catch the pass, thus the animation was correct in this situation). Since he did have to slow himself down to catch the pass, that's why the corner "Usain Bolt" guy was able to sprint and get back in the play. I don't see much of an issue with that, either.

KP is actually a pretty good passer, and pass catching animations, especially in stride, just haven't been there much for users in this game pretty much ever. The animation for the pass catch is typical of practically all user breaks. I could agree with you maybe if that were not the case, but it is. It's one of those things that slows user breaks down that doesn't really happen to the CPU.

As for the defending SF contesting the shot, can you seriously say a player with 60-70 ratings in speed and acceleration can literally go the full length of the court from the corner, behind the foul line steal, to contest the shot under the hoop, blazing past everyone else on the court? At the same time, the 80-90+ speed/acceleration offensive SG on the other side of the court, foul line extended even with the steal, can barely get to a lane to fill on the weak side of the break, either to the corner or toward the basket?

I don't know what NBA games you watch where that happens, but I haven't seen it. The reason he got there is because the fast break logic assigned him to guard that (his) man, and forced his speed to put him on that man.

Quote: Originally Posted by fluent2332

Also, instead of a contested jumper, if you had made one more pass you would have had an open layup/dunk. #14 in the play makes a burst towards the basket as #34 is catching the pass and the defender is committing to defend #34 (the guy with the ball). Just like a good running/hustling big would do in real life, he ran the lane perfectly but you didn't reward him with the pass.

#14 in that play is a center who, if you look at the beginning of the clip, was cold with a blue circle. He was cold because he had already turned the ball over twice with his ham hands in this very early part of the first quarter. Passing to him on the move to the hoop would have been a very unwise decision.

But you're right that the shot I took was actually an awful shot and should not have gone in. I should have kicked the ball back out to KP on the wing for an open shot at 3pts.

Doesn't matter. The speed nerfs and boosts and AI glitches are so typical of transition plays that my (bad) choice to take that baseline jumper doesn't negate what's actually happening on the court.

[fluent2332]

Quote: Originally Posted by LorenzoDC

I respectfully disagree. The PG took a bump from the defender, and didn't decide to trail. There's nothing in his actions that looks like trailing anyway. Who trails by standing still with his back to the half of the court where the play is? It's not a "trail", it's a "release". He's standing still anticipating that Porzingis is not going to lead the break in traffic but rather pass it back to him (the PG) to setup the offense or run a secondary break with the ball in the PG's hands. The AI is not telepathic and will make decisions. In this case the PG was anticipating a pass back as he is the more skilled player to bring the ball up the court. In this case I dumped the ball to KP because I knew by reflex that keeping the ball in the hands of the guy in traffic who had a defender right on top of him would mean, in 2K17, a very high probability of the ball getting bumped loose again. It's not sim to give the ball to the big man like that but it's necessary in 2k in that situation to dump to an open man to avoid another bump animation turnover. Well, that was your decision and all, but I think the PG in that case should have just held the ball and moved up the right side of the floor with it. KP is actually a pretty good passer, and pass catching animations, especially in stride, just haven't been there much for users in this game pretty much ever. The animation for the pass catch is typical of practically all user breaks. I could agree with you maybe if that were not the case, but it is. It's one of those things that slows user breaks down that doesn't really happen to the CPU. It's not that KP isn't a good passer, it's the angle from which you threw the pass. It was awkward and not a good angle. You're expecting the receiver in this play to almost act like an NFL receiver and catch the ball over his shoulder in stride, but the angle you threw the pass from was not a good one to throw to a player with their back turned to begin with. As for the defending SF contesting the shot, can you seriously say a player with 60-70 ratings in speed and acceleration can literally go the full length of the court from the corner, behind the foul line steal, to contest the shot under the hoop, blazing past everyone else on the court? At the same time, the 80-90+ offensive SG on the other side of the court, foul line extended even with the steal, can barely get to a lane to fill on the weak side of the break, either to the corner or toward the basket? This player happened to sprint. In a real NBA fast break not everyone sprints and all players in general do not move at maximum speed or at the same speed. Again, the AI is going to make decisions like they would similar to real life. It's not always going to be pretty or do what you think it should (since it's reflecting decision-making that you have no control of and is ratings-based.) I don't know what NBA games you watch where that happens, but I haven't seen it. The reason he got there is because the fast break logic assigned him to guard that (his) man, and forced his speed to put him on that man. How do you know this? I don't agree with that assessment. #14 in that play is a center who, if you look at the beginning of the clip, was cold with a blue circle. He was cold because he had already turned the ball over twice with his ham hands in this very early part of the first quarter. Passing to him on the move to the hoop would have been a very unwise decision. But you're right that the shot I took was actually an awful shot and should not have gone in. I should have kicked the ball back out to KP on the wing for an open shot at 3pts. Passing the ball to a big man who is hustling/running/filling the lane and is essentially wide open is not often a "very unwise decision". Any big playing in the NBA could catch that pass and likely finish uncontested. Of course, making a quick decision like that in the heat of the game takes skills, and I'm not judging your gaming skills or anything like that based on one clip. I'm just saying that a quick pass to the big who is filling the lane literally perfectly would have been the best option and likely resulted in an easy 2 points. Doesn't matter. The speed nerfs and boosts and AI glitches are so typical of transition plays that my (bad) choice to take that baseline jumper doesn't negate what's actually happening on the court.

Well, I just saw that specific video differently. If you'd like to put together a package of many plays happening like this I'd be more than happy to analyze them and give my thoughts. My responses to your specific points are in BOLD above, by the way.