2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

**Crossover1** · 06-30-2017, 12:13 PM

Re: 2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

Great post!

I won't get my hopes up that they will get this aspect of the game right based on past games. This game has been and seemingly will always be about height. Taller and longer players will always have an advantage in 2K because the animations are too athletic for the bigger, slower players. They cover too much ground and their reaction times are ridiculously quick.

With smaller players, it's the complete opposite.

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**Kushmir** · 06-30-2017, 12:56 PM

Re: 2K18: Block/Steal Timing

PART 2:

When we discuss blocks and steals we have remember how rare they are relative to the game. The league leaders in both average about 2 per game...thats the equivalent of 1 in 5 minute quarters.

More shots are "contested" by a wide margin than stolen or blocked. Gameplay has the tools (the right stick) to contest shots already....now can this be expanded to be more dynamic? Sure. But first we have to remember that while each instance is individual--the chances for a foul generally outnumber the chances for a block or steal by a pretty big margin....especially if players lack the skill-set.

Block Timing absolutely has to factor more into Block Success. Right now its generally horrible, for example: this guy fooled me. Regardless of Saric helping later this is a contact foul on Embiid that should be called instantly....staying in theme: Gameplay can't reward failure.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EcT1ac1oMc0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If there's a better example of bad block timing i've yet to see it. Just WOW. If this is a block? EVERYTHING IS.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AJsMklusd2U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Elite shot-blocker or not Embiid got fooled. Shot-blocks on the way down? Come now.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7ditTtp284c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It gets worse, blocks before the shot? How?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/V8Q2G0ThVlU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Its almost funny how often bad block/steal timing is rewarded. The game ignores every instance this guy has horrible timing and gives him a block the ONE time its good? UGH. Thats a broken/inconsistent system.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tcP8-0ONraU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8iJbuMisHXQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MfzZh6T9HQM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The frequency that non shot blockers get out-of-position blocks after they get beat should be rare. Right now the chase-down block is considered a good play--thats ridiculous.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nGcHC9A5fNs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This Conley play is especially bad because he goes for a steal first, but since gameplay doesn't punish him with a foul or lunging out of position (which it should) he's able to block a 6'10" player in transition. Would I have a problem with him stripping the ball with good timing? nope. but a block? (his rating is 45) again: easy foul.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LtUcPBGUILU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Worse, its created a spoiled and entitled playerbase that expects plays like that. Imagine getting angry because 6-6 Brandon Rush doesn't block a big in transition? AS IF.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9CzKL0mhimM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Skillset has to matter as well. Its so bad right now that Rondo and Tyler Ulis (one of the lowest block ratings in the game: 35) are getting blocks. Let's be clear: These are possible...mathmatically atleast. Still, they should require almost perfect timing (which even then should sometimes get called) these should be fouls 19 times in 20 and gameplay should reflect that. Players like these should be attempting to strip the ball the same way Deandre Jordan is limited to a specific shooting range (i.e. 5 feet from the basket)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/z_knDv3pjUQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DsxD0wz2EB4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here's what should be happening. Gameplay should reward us for out-smarting other users into falling for pump-fakes and punishing bad block timing with fouls as a rule:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nsV5SsuKpyU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/81H-6VVNjzY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MF5uktM1KbQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/p3-I_-4dSRY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/j5sy2ac-0r8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WBf3XqZw1JA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IFW2o7t5oAU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZpN7X4KKUq8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Now I get it, maybe you're saying "Wow, I mistime blocks too much.." (or try to block jumpshots) I think we all do, because gameplay is too forgiving and doesn't require us to rely on contesting shots more. For the game to achieve its potential it has to be more accountable and we should welcome this in a PVP setting. In Offline play? customize the game however you want, change settings and score 100 with your favorite player if you like....but in competitive play we should want/expect the highest level gameplay available....

And that means holding ourselves (and gameplay) to a higher standard. As always, players will adapt...2K competitive play goes on the grand stage with the NBA E-Sports League next year...it simply can't look like this.

**strawberryshortcake** · 06-30-2017, 03:37 PM

Re: 2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

This is a tricky one for me because how would you account for real life situation where the smaller guy does block the taller fellow, and real life situations where the defender pressures the ball handler, continues to swipe at the ball without making contact on the ball handler's arms.

Blocking
If the user times his jump properly when using a smaller defender on a bigger offensive shooter, if it's always called a foul, isn't that taking "physics" out of the equation and implementing "artificial" (or whatever the proper word is) or some type of "pre-determined" outcome so to speak.

Curry is definitely not a shot blocker, but how would you ever account for the smaller guy ever able to block the taller guy in the paint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpXUA6q8pRA

@0:00 mark
@1:03 mark
@2:35 mark

With regards to your video and comment on the defender coming down to make a shot block, that actually happens in real life, as you probably know already. I know Draymond Green is an elite shot blocker, but he often blocks the shot when hes coming down because of his timing.

Blocking outside shooters ... is that the same as contesting outside shooters? How do you account for defenders often running, jumping to contest shooters and never getting called for a foul in real life because the defender doesn't actually touch the shooter despite being extremely close to the shooter.

Steals
Note: I usually go through an entire game without ever using the steal button. I like to use position to defend. Having said that, my problem with swipe and always making the defender lunge and essentially come to a slow recovery crawl is that that is not realistic either. In real life, I can stand in front of someone, and continue to swipe all day (or quickly try to poke at the ball) without ever lunging as much as 2k's steal-lunge animation plays out.

The defender should get punished not because they're tied up into a long lunging animation but because the offensive ball handler is able to immediately and explosively cross over and get by the defender even if the defender quickly pokes at the ball. Stealing shouldn't always have to result in foul or making the defender lunge to a slow recovery. 2k doesn't have a "poke at the ball" user input button, kind of like a "quick jab" in boxing so to speak.

**Kushmir** · 06-30-2017, 05:07 PM

Re: 2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

All good questions:

1) I think we can all agree ratings represent what a player consistently does--not what they've done once. highlight films are anecdotal because 1) They don't show all the times a guy misses that play 2) they don't represent the whole...its all-good-plays-all-the-time. The reality is Curry has never averaged more than 0.3 bpg and his career average is 0.2--meaning he gets one block about every 5 games. A rating or result that has him at any level of success getting blocks would simply be inaccurate.

I deal in outcomes...in 20 outcomes his rating: 35 (with good timing) should yield success maybe 1 or 2 times in 20. Conversely, he's "good" at stealing the ball...averaging almost 2 spg for his career. His steal rating (77) would mean he'd have much more favorable outcomes trying to strip the ball. 4-5 times in 20 in my estimation.

I'm not saying these guys could NEVER get blocks...just that the chances for a foul would be much higher. Its not unlike shooting FTs with Andre Drummond...(his rating 38) provides a serious barrier to success. Hitting half your FTs with him is pretty good--i'm saying we have to be ok with that.

I'd argue the same thing re: shot-blocks on the way down. The vast majority are called fouls....so basing a system on what rarely happens makes about as much sense as doing a half-court shot rating. Blocks should require timing within the window of success. IMO the rating should indicate how often they could be successful when they hit that window. The same way FTs or good releases "miss" sometimes a person might hit the window but a lower rating means they miss the shot anyway. Dwight Howard getting a full bar on a 3pter for instance--getting a good release shouldn't always mean success. But Dwight Howard's shot block rating is 75--while it wouldn't mean he'd never foul someone with good timing....it WOULD mean that he'd have a high rate of shot-blocks with good timing....but timing STILL has to be a requirement regardless of rating.

In regards to real-life i've found its best defer to good gameplay/balance and make it a PRIORITY. If the defender has a chance at creating a turnover there has to be a chance at a negative outcome--if not you reward/encourage steal spam on every play--the risks can't be that disproportionate. Ask yourself: So should a person be able to get a steal on every play?

This is the same question posed re: FG percentages years ago. Short Answer: No, even if the shot is open you won't hit every shot...you'll just shoot a good percentage. In short the chances for being whistled for fouls will be much higher than steals success the same way 3pt % will be lower than dunk percentage. Its something that occurs less, so even if the situation is favorable sometimes it won't succeed.

In the end gameplay always, always tells the truth. Have you seen the level of steal spam online? We have to balance that before adding new features like the poke or auto-crossover you're suggesting...both the lunge and contact foul are already in the game...they just need to occur at a higher rate.

Here's an online game I played yesterday....decide for yourself if the level of steal spam is OK.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pnBuq0e0tFQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

**strawberryshortcake** · 06-30-2017, 07:23 PM

Re: 2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

First off, I definitely understand where you're coming from. There needs to be a counter on both ends, defensively and offensively to give the game balance. The same in real life. There are counters on the defensive and offensive end. We don't need certain actions to be completely overpowered. And believe me you, I certainly see "ratings" as an important part of the gameplay construct. It is important, but so is timing physics.

The reason why I still see my current stance having a certain percentage of merit is ball physics and timing physics (i.e. arms not going through ball, hands between ball and basket, someone going in for a dunk but a defender still has his hand positioned right at the ball, etc.).

A future gameplay mechanical element (much more overly complicated) that may come into play is using the analog stick to dictate your arms three dimensional spacial position or in which direction the body leans .... when going for a block, jumping to contest an outside shooter, where to position your right/left hand to steal the ball, how low do you want to swipe at the ball, etc.

I see the "green release" as something, maybe even completely, different than blocks or steals. Green release determines the persons shot motion. Green release perfect form, but doesn't necessary dictate the potential of the ball going through the basket. A person's shot rating or green release rating doesn't truly dictate how often hitting a green release will call for a made bucket. Something to that extent.

I just see blocks/steals as a timing mechanism. Ratings certainly have to come into play somehow, but can you really have ratings completely supercede proper timing for blocks/steals attempts. If someone times his swipe perfectly (i.e. hand meets ball) with the hand physically hitting the ball, would it be simulation for ratings to completely take over even though it was all-ball.

Player never gotten a steal in his life, so he has a 10% to 0% steal rating. But within the game of 2k, if the user uses the same player and times his steal correctly (physics, hand meets ball), do we still put "ratings" ahead of "timing," resulting in a foul even though on replay it clearly shows all ball.

Player never gotten a block in his life, so he has a 10% to 0% block rating. But within the game of 2k, if the user uses the same player and times his vertical jump to block correctly (physics, hand meets ball), do we still put "ratings" ahead of "timing," resulting in a foul even though on replay it clearly shows all ball.

I didn't get a chance to watch the entire video, but the first several minutes. I mean I could see a concern, but it looks like you were able to maneuver around pretty successfully. Those "spam steal" look more like clean swipes, or "tougher on ball defense," (i.e. Patrick Beverly type defense, Kawhi Leonard type defense, Draymond Green type defense etc.).

**Kushmir** · 06-30-2017, 09:25 PM

Re: 2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

Yeah the video was pretty long--I almost didn't want to link it but its a good example of how bad steal spam is currently--and how the game doesn't punish bad block timing.

We're on the same team--we just have a different approach.....you'd like a lot of the game's aspects to supercede rating, I just believe ratings provide a necessary and healthy cap and range. They're the thing that prevents Ben Simmons and other non-shooters from shooting a good % from outside and allows strategy like giving him open jump-shots. Now keep in mind what i'm talking about is limited to PNO where actual NBA players/teams have static ratings and we have tons of data on their production and abilities. I think modes like MyPlayer and PRO-AM would be OK with the User Agency you're describing.

I've never been a "The ball went through his hand!" guy....I've played these games long enough to know the physics and body interactions are going to be full of holes. I prefer good interactions and balanced gameplay that rewards skill and strategy, if they're good I don't require the perfect physics--still, i'm not discounting your POV.

I just focus on balance, scale and removing exploits. To me skill is equal parts shot timing and being smart enough to have JJ Reddick shoot a last second 18 footer as opposed to Blake Griffin.....and not allowing Joel Embiid to get a block on the way down because gameplay can't reward my failure and bad timing. 94 block rating be damned lol.

The game holding us accountable for bad timing/using the wrong player on plays like this is important:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9ROGhnG6fNs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Because as we know...good timing nets this guy a steal--so bad timing has to have negative outcomes.

**PopcornJones77** · 06-30-2017, 11:11 PM

Re: 2K18: Block/Steal Timing

Good thread, man.

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**strawberryshortcake** · 07-01-2017, 12:34 AM

Re: 2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

Originally posted by Kushmir

Spoiler

The thing is I do certainly want to see our digital 2k basketball essentially replicate its real life counterpart. Curry's digital rating should reflect his real life rating. But the thing is, I see a difference between video game translation of "shooting" and "timing for blocks/steals;" at least that's how my mind processes it.

Shooting ... ratings will definitely matter. Deandre Jordan is not going to start dropping 3s.

Blocks/steals ... ratings? ... how do you implement that when it's defined by two objects colliding (i.e. hand and ball, or body part and ball). How do you get "rating" and "timing for blocks/steals" to coexist on the same playing field if the user times his block/steal within the proper window. Do we let the "steal/block" movie play out dictated entirely by rating and have no influence with the controller?

Should it be like the football video game "Backbreaker" where one doesn't even have to press the steal or jump button to make an interception. The gamer simply maneuvers the defender in front of the football and his rating will determine if he gets an interception or not.

Ratings should obviously be the primary determining factor for shooting -- it doesn't involve two objects colliding. Shooting is independent from external forces to a certain extent. You can put up shots all day in the gym and you'd make a certain percentage. That tells you how good of a shooter you may be. Add in the element of a defender and that changes your shooting percentage. But when it comes to blocking/stealing, the user has button input. Trust me, I do see if from your point of view, and part of me do like everything that you've brought up. My biggest gripe is the unrealistic swipe and lunge and slow to recover animation. Note: once again, I barely even ever use the steal button, so it's not me complaining about the slow recovery when I play, but just that the slow recovery after a swipe simply isn't realistic. I would rather the recovery be fast, but there is that split microsecond momentum shift where the defender is caught off guard and the ball handler is able to pass. In other words, they need a better "reach I teach" animation.

**ataman5** · 07-01-2017, 06:33 AM

Re: 2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

Well put! Definitely needs a lot of improvement..

**Kushmir** · 07-01-2017, 07:34 AM

Re: 2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

Originally posted by strawberryshortcake

Should it be like the football video game "Backbreaker" where one doesn't even have to press the steal or jump button to make an interception. The gamer simply maneuvers the defender in front of the football and his rating will determine if he gets an interception or not.

I get what you're saying...and we're alike, I don't go for a bunch of steals either. IMO both should be timing based for success whereas that "success rate" is determined by rating. To me thats equal parts skill and rating. IMO the window for a shot block is right after the user has released the ball. Too early (again--IMO) is a contact foul while too late can be that or run the risk of a goal-tend.

To me even if I get Gobert and have horrible timing I should not be successful blocking shots. Elite guys will probably have a somewhat larger window re: when they can attack the ball but success will ultimately require skill. IMO steals should be the same way, the ball is "free" during certain periods--if I time my steal for that period I should then have success based on my rating.

An example might be an elite ball-thief like Draymond (85) with good timing might get 6-7 steals in 20 attempts. Which may seem low but keep in mind how rare on-ball steals are. Giving guys a success rate thats too high will break the game....especially when you start to consider users with elite skill--who is who you have to tune your game for. Tuning your competitive game for average user is folly. If the average user can throw for 300yds in a Madden game the elite guy will throw for 1000.

**Rockie_Fresh88** · 07-01-2017, 08:18 AM

Re: 2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

guys online make dumb plays. They spam dribble moves in situations where they should lose the ball but don't . They also take horrible shots , shots that should be blocked.

I know someone guys want a realistic number of steals and blocks per game . But if my opponent is taking an unrealistic amount of dumb shots and dribble moves he should be punished.

**Kushmir** · 07-01-2017, 08:36 AM

Re: 2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

Originally posted by Rockie_Fresh88

guys online make dumb plays. They spam dribble moves in situations where they should lose the ball but don't . They also take horrible shots , shots that should be blocked.

I know someone guys want a realistic number of steals and blocks per game . But if my opponent is taking an unrealistic amount of dumb shots and dribble moves he should be punished.

Agreed. Keep in mind each play is individual--on the first page I mentioned how I played Minny user who had 10 blocks, afterward I looked at the game trying to find bad blocks and there were really only two. He was just good at shot-blocking and used Towns/Dieng and handled his business. The video I linked has a guy controlling Towns just crushing my shot in the first minute...no reasonable person has an issue with that play. Good Timing + Good Rating = High Success Rate.

I agree bad decisions should be punished as well. Thats the overall theme of this thread...bad shots/dribble moves by your opponent just mean you'll have a higher number of blocks and steals with good timing--not that you'll get one every possession, or even every other possession.

**keshunleon** · 07-01-2017, 11:06 AM

Re: 2K18: Block/Steal Timing

This is a great discussion!

A player's position, rating, and timing should play a huge role in steals and blocks.

USER vs CPU

It kills me when I see a player that has low steal and low block attempts going for blocks and steals often. Players will be out of position or behind the player yet will get a block. Sometimes reaching through a body part to do it.

I don't know how many times my player's hand or fingers go through the ball with no steal, deflection or block that leads to a bucket.

**Kushmir** · 07-01-2017, 11:38 AM

Re: 2K18: Block/Steal Timing

Originally posted by keshunleon

I don't know how many times my player's hand or fingers go through the ball with no steal, deflection or block that leads to a bucket.

I agree with the first part but I learned a long time ago that the physics of the game will never be perfect--sometimes they'll be bad, frankly. What i'm more concerned with? "Is the game balanced well and are player limited by their strengths and weaknesses?" It shouldn't matter how good a user controlling Seth Curry's timing is....he should still be riddled with fouls going for chase-down blocks. He's too limited by his rating.

I'm not saying he won't get one...but he'll use up more than his share of fouls trying to get it.

2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

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