To Moderators: I know that there is a discussion about the QB (Brady and Mannings) throwing motion in the new trailer video. I'm hoping that I can take a detour and start a new thread because I didn't want my lengthy, a bit more detailed post with supporting visual evidence to get lost. Plus, this would enable the developers to notice it more quickly. If not, please at least merge my post with the other thread. Thanks. Appreciative.
Two point post:
(1) Cutscene
(2) QB throwing motion
Addressing the cut scene remark briefly because there's not much to say about it except that NCAA14 (in the world of EA sports) did them very nicely. The cut scenes actually showed the actual jersey numbers of the corresponding players involved in the play. When a QB was sacked, if I recall correctly, there is usually one or two teammates that celebrated with the guy that sacked the QB. The uniform numbers matched the teammates that were in the vicinity of the play, and the "star/highlight" of the cut scene was the person primarily involved in the play. It was a very refreshing sight for an EA football game.
@TheBuddyHobbs, the QB animation are still suspect because there is definitely still a problem with them. It's not just your eyes or your opinion that should be brushed off. Subconsciously, there is still something off about them that you can't put your fingers on it because it's subtle and could be and very likely overlooked by most. I'll further elaborate below, but to cut to the chase there are two parts that jump out.
(1) Hips and shoulder separation. Look at the hips and shoulder rotations for all their QB throwing mechanics. All our limbs move independently, and at different times or rates from one another. If not, things will look robotic and not fluid.
(2) Front leg not straight on follow through. The majority of Madden's QB follow through has their front leg still bent on follow through. Obviously, you're not going to be able to see this at all in the current new trailer because they simply don't show this, but revisit past Madden QB animation and it'll be noticeably present.
The 12 principles of animations were introduced and made famous by Disney animators' Ollie Johnston and Frank Thomas, both of which observed real world movements and took the same "life movements" principles and incorporated their animation.
To dive right into it, the lack of hip separation, plus improper "follow through" of the waist, torso, chest, shoulder and arms, and their respective poor sequencing of the concept implementation of "drag" is the culprit. In athletic terms, you're suppose to lead with your hips and not with your shoulders. Power and force is generated by the hips, not the shoulders. Shoulders and arms are suppose to stay back, "waiting" for the hips to fully rotate to engage or propel the shoulders forward.
Madden's QB animations does a complete 180 reversal on how "follow through and drag" is suppose to be done. Madden animates its QB to lead with the shoulder, and in turn, the hips follow. But to be more technically and visually correct simply based on their animations, the QB's hip & torso & shoulders rotates simultaneously in unison frequently. This is the main reason I see when observing their QB throwing motions.
Just stand up and throw an imaginary baseball or football ... both short, medium and long distance. Take a mental list for the sequence of motion for hips, waist, shoulder, arms? To generate the most force or power, which starts to move first. This is where the concept "drag' comes into play.
If the 3D animators doesn't implement "drag" properly, or which body part moves first, second, third, or last, then the characters' entire movement will look stiff.
Obviously we're not going to see this in the current trailer because it's removed from view. I am only extrapolating this theory based on Brady and Manning hips still rotating in unison with their throwing shoulders in the trailer, as well as past Madden's QB throwing motion. More Madden 18 closeup QB animations are needed.
Throwing the football also involve extension of the hips to generate the power behind his throw, resulting in a straight front leg. Obviously this is not universal, sometimes a quarterback won't straighten his leg but more often than not, he will. Initially there is a slight bent (kind of like a quarter squat), as the QB goes through his motion he single leg "squats' his weight up to straighten his leg.
This is why Madden's QB animation still looks off. Updated graphics, texture, color palette, lighting makes things look pretty. But unless the physical movements actually captures real human in motion, and implements the 12 principles of animations properly, there's still going to remain that "disconnect" or "uncanny valley" effect. "It looks sort of real, but there's just something off about it"
Unfortunately, the signatures style back in Madden 10 also had issues with "drag" and the above points I've mentioned.
<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/d3Rj_OzWkbA" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>
Two point post:
(1) Cutscene
(2) QB throwing motion
Addressing the cut scene remark briefly because there's not much to say about it except that NCAA14 (in the world of EA sports) did them very nicely. The cut scenes actually showed the actual jersey numbers of the corresponding players involved in the play. When a QB was sacked, if I recall correctly, there is usually one or two teammates that celebrated with the guy that sacked the QB. The uniform numbers matched the teammates that were in the vicinity of the play, and the "star/highlight" of the cut scene was the person primarily involved in the play. It was a very refreshing sight for an EA football game.
Spoiler
@TheBuddyHobbs, the QB animation are still suspect because there is definitely still a problem with them. It's not just your eyes or your opinion that should be brushed off. Subconsciously, there is still something off about them that you can't put your fingers on it because it's subtle and could be and very likely overlooked by most. I'll further elaborate below, but to cut to the chase there are two parts that jump out.
(1) Hips and shoulder separation. Look at the hips and shoulder rotations for all their QB throwing mechanics. All our limbs move independently, and at different times or rates from one another. If not, things will look robotic and not fluid.
(2) Front leg not straight on follow through. The majority of Madden's QB follow through has their front leg still bent on follow through. Obviously, you're not going to be able to see this at all in the current new trailer because they simply don't show this, but revisit past Madden QB animation and it'll be noticeably present.
(1) Hip and Shoulder Separation
"Drag" and "follow through" is one of the prime reason why QB animation look off.
The missing ingredients that causes this disconnect with Madden's QB throwing motion comes down to a few key concepts. In the world of animations, not properly animating the sequence of "anticipation, follow through, and drag" are crucial to why Madden's QB throwing animation still look the way they do. The 12 principles of animations were introduced and made famous by Disney animators' Ollie Johnston and Frank Thomas, both of which observed real world movements and took the same "life movements" principles and incorporated their animation.
Lead with your hips, not with your shoulders
Side remark: Also notice the arms are not tucked close to the body in Madden's QB animation. Yes, still need more angle and more footage but compare the following Madden 18 Brady GIF lack of arm tuck to the the Real Brady GIF (down below part 2 of this thread) with the arm tuck below.
Madden 18
Side remark: Also notice the arms are not tucked close to the body in Madden's QB animation. Yes, still need more angle and more footage but compare the following Madden 18 Brady GIF lack of arm tuck to the the Real Brady GIF (down below part 2 of this thread) with the arm tuck below.
Madden 18
To dive right into it, the lack of hip separation, plus improper "follow through" of the waist, torso, chest, shoulder and arms, and their respective poor sequencing of the concept implementation of "drag" is the culprit. In athletic terms, you're suppose to lead with your hips and not with your shoulders. Power and force is generated by the hips, not the shoulders. Shoulders and arms are suppose to stay back, "waiting" for the hips to fully rotate to engage or propel the shoulders forward.
Madden's QB animations does a complete 180 reversal on how "follow through and drag" is suppose to be done. Madden animates its QB to lead with the shoulder, and in turn, the hips follow. But to be more technically and visually correct simply based on their animations, the QB's hip & torso & shoulders rotates simultaneously in unison frequently. This is the main reason I see when observing their QB throwing motions.
Madden 18
Pretend to throw a baseball or football
Just stand up and throw an imaginary baseball or football ... both short, medium and long distance. Take a mental list for the sequence of motion for hips, waist, shoulder, arms? To generate the most force or power, which starts to move first. This is where the concept "drag' comes into play.
If the 3D animators doesn't implement "drag" properly, or which body part moves first, second, third, or last, then the characters' entire movement will look stiff.
==================================
Real Athlete, or real human movements
1st: Hips
2nd: Waist
3rd: Torso
4th: Shoulder
5th: Arms
Madden's QB throwing motion (This is a grey area because they practically move in unison give or take.)
1st: Shoulder/Arms
2nd: Torso/Waist/Hips
==================================
Real Athlete, or real human movements
1st: Hips
2nd: Waist
3rd: Torso
4th: Shoulder
5th: Arms
Madden's QB throwing motion (This is a grey area because they practically move in unison give or take.)
1st: Shoulder/Arms
2nd: Torso/Waist/Hips
==================================
(2) Front leg not straight on follow-through
Obviously we're not going to see this in the current trailer because it's removed from view. I am only extrapolating this theory based on Brady and Manning hips still rotating in unison with their throwing shoulders in the trailer, as well as past Madden's QB throwing motion. More Madden 18 closeup QB animations are needed.
Throwing the football also involve extension of the hips to generate the power behind his throw, resulting in a straight front leg. Obviously this is not universal, sometimes a quarterback won't straighten his leg but more often than not, he will. Initially there is a slight bent (kind of like a quarter squat), as the QB goes through his motion he single leg "squats' his weight up to straighten his leg.
Real Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Dak Prescott
Real Ben Roethlisberger
To revisit the above first point about "follow through, drag" and limbs independently moving at different times and rate, observe the body movements of the above gifs (look at the hips, shoulders, limbs, torso and notice that they move independently and all at different time points. Compare that to the following Madden 17 motions where the limbs are essentially moving in unison, no real separation of the body parts. No "drag" factor.
Madden 17
Madden 17
Drew Brees
Dak Prescott
Real Ben Roethlisberger
To revisit the above first point about "follow through, drag" and limbs independently moving at different times and rate, observe the body movements of the above gifs (look at the hips, shoulders, limbs, torso and notice that they move independently and all at different time points. Compare that to the following Madden 17 motions where the limbs are essentially moving in unison, no real separation of the body parts. No "drag" factor.
Madden 17
Madden 17
"Uncanny Valley"
This is why Madden's QB animation still looks off. Updated graphics, texture, color palette, lighting makes things look pretty. But unless the physical movements actually captures real human in motion, and implements the 12 principles of animations properly, there's still going to remain that "disconnect" or "uncanny valley" effect. "It looks sort of real, but there's just something off about it"
Unfortunately, the signatures style back in Madden 10 also had issues with "drag" and the above points I've mentioned.
<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/d3Rj_OzWkbA" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>
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